Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC. 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Daniel Snyder talk to Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung about referring individuals to resources in his community. Daniel suggests that recovery option should be person-centred and tailored to the individual needs of the person seeking treatment. Daniel explains the importance of keeping those struggling with substance use disorder around their support systems and the importance of including them in community. 

Lucas Akai  02:01 

Maybe we can go this, then? So with your own experience, your own, I would, I mean, based on your description, and the way you've spoken about it, maybe bad experience, with the initial approach to like, 'Oh, this is, you just have to get treatment,' right, and without explanation as to what that is and what that means. And so when you are referring, that was the word I was searching for, when you refer these people, to these different organisations, how would you approach that when maybe the individual has had their own bad experience with regards to this, or they've been given bad advice from loved ones, similar to like, you know, 'just find treatment?' Treatment, right? And no further explanation or they themselves have gone through your experience without reaching the point where they found what works? How do you approach that? 

Daniel Snyder  02:47 

I guess the number one thing I would want to tell people is make sure that whatever you engage with is interested in what you want. And, and educate yourself on the options that exist. I didn't know that there was different ways to approach recovery and treatment from addiction for many, many years. My, I literally knew of only one way, which was mainly involving residential treatment, but the ultimate goal was that you stop using drugs and become abstinent from drugs. That is how we, that's actually how we measure if you're successful or not.  

Lucas Akai  03:23 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  03:24 

And so of course, yeah. You'll often hear people talk about treatment centres and their success rate. The question, that's the question people want to have as well, what's their success rate? But how? So because people ask that question, I suppose we decided that we have to find a way to measure success. And there's no, the most reductive and simplified way of thinking about it is consecutive days sober. Right, this is the dumbest metric in the world because consecutive days sober, literally have no bearing on quality of life. How successful you are in life, how meaningful your life is, how fulfilling your life is, how much of a sense of purpose you have, how great your relationships are, those things are completely uncorrelated to sobriety. So using that as a measuring stick, it makes literally no sense. Like if we use that as a measuring stick, then I'm an absolute failure, right?  

Daniel Snyder  04:29 

But if you talk to me about my life, and the things that are meaningful, and the people that are in it, and the things that I'm a part of, well, then I would say that my recovery is a tremendous success.  

Lucas Akai  04:40 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  04:41 

Because I don't use a metric like sobriety abstinence as a measuring stick for how good my life is. There's other factors that have far more importance and significance to it. So when I'm talking to someone, I say are, [do] you have people in your life who are supporting you to find out what you want or do you have people in your life, the people who are supporting your recovery journey, who are just telling you what you should do? And if it's all about what they're telling you, then maybe these aren't the best support people for you. That doesn't mean, don't ever listen to them, or don't be in relationship with them or cut them off. It's just means, you really do have some responsibility as an individual to find the people that can support you in the way that you want support.  

Lucas Akai  05:24 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  05:25 

And so that's one of the areas. I don't know how we do this. But how do we, when people come into a time in their life or that moment when they're ready to start engaging in some kind of, what would we? I guess we'll call it recovery, it's not probably the best word. But when they're ready to start addressing their substance use, in whatever capacity, how do we provide them with, 'Hey, these are all the directions you could go.' Right? 'You could go to a faith-based abstinence treatment centre. Or you could go to Peru, and do Ayahuasca in the jungle, and meet with a therapist there.' And there's a lot of options in between, right? But normally, we don't give them those options and spend the time to explain what they are and educate people on, on what might be beneficial for them, what might work for them, right? I don't mean to be disparaging about, like faith-based recovery, I think it's got tremendous value for a lot of people.  

Daniel Snyder  06:38 

One of the things that I wish that I learned both about myself. No, one of the things that I wish I had learned about myself, because I was very desperate and hopeful in young age that faith-based recovery was going to be the solution for me. And it wasn't until I really just got older and learned about my own personality and the way my own brain functions. And I mean, really just simple things like personality assessment. I was like, 'Oh, my brain really just doesn't work this way.' Like, I'm an analytical research, logic oriented person. I need facts. I need an evidence-based approach I can understand. And suddenly, when I learned about cognitive behavioural therapy, and I learned those principles, and things started clicking for me, but I spent 10 or 15, or years, like, desperate for prayer to click for me.  

Lucas Akai  07:42 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  07:42 

And, and then also frustrated, confused and upset by the fact that it wasn't producing the results all these people told me it was supposed to, right? And then I get irritated and my belief system that develops is 'I'll never, I'll never get out of this. I'm trapped in this. It doesn't work for me. I've engaged with so much treatment, so much recovery. And it's just a repetition. It's just a pattern. It's just a cycle.' And nobody comes alongside and says, 'hey, well, maybe we should try something different? Maybe a different approach could help you?' No, more. Literally, it's just more of the same and then that more of the same, and then you have an expert standing up at the front of the room saying, 'hey, hey, do you know the definition of insanity?' 

Lucas Akai  08:28 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  08:28 

'It's doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? You should just keep going back to treatment, though.'  

Daniel Snyder  08:36 

And do it over and over again. 

Lucas Akai  08:36 

Right 

Lucas Akai  08:37 

And so you mentioned these differing methods of, of treatment. And do you think that the lack of ability to refer to, like, a wider spread number of organisations is purely because there is a lack of best practice around what should be the standard for referral and for how we offer support and options for support? 

Daniel Snyder  09:05 

I think that there is a lack of best practice and it's probably, the problem is probably going to be how would you disseminate best practices in the first place? I think there's multiple streams that you have to look at, right? Like there's the policy stream, which is going to be the easiest one for the government to approach and they can set policy for what treatment should look like. What things are allowed or, and what things are not, or what things should be required. 

Lucas Akai  09:45 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  09:46 

 But on best practices, there's also the general public and their perceptions and how you how you communicate best practices down to that level is something that will happen organically over time, and that's, again back to, you know, it, a lot of layers to do with drugs, drug policy, the drug war, our attitudes towards drugs are just things that are twice as difficult to address because mostly, we're not educating. We're also uneducating first, right? We really actually have to help people unlearn false things that they've assimilated in their mind and their thinking. And there's no good way to tell people, 'hey, all those things you believe are really just ideological structures, they're not based in evidence and truth. And, and yeah, the very people that are now telling you, there's a new way, the government, are the people who lied to you about it for six years, so just trust what they have to say now.' 

Lucas Akai  10:57 

And so, in regards to that, have you ever found there to be like struggles when you refer individuals to support or when you refer perhaps, people who don't necessarily need support, but just want to learn more about the topic and the crisis and the issue? Do you find that there's struggles there with regards to referring support or information or education? 

Daniel Snyder  11:19 

Well, I know when like one of the things that I do, really, is I just have my, I have my people, my books, my, my resources that I know and trust. And --  

Daniel Snyder  11:30 

it's like, these are the ones I'm going to tell you about. And that's my, so it, within that is my own biases and my own, you know, taking my own anecdotal experiences and saying. So it's something I also have to be cautious of, because I can't, I can't go up to every single person that I interact with and say, 'well, you should do cognitive behavioural therapy.' Maybe that doesn't click at all for them, right? And, and so the spectrum, and the options are important. And that's why when I mentioned personality assessment, it really surprises me that that's not done early on, in treatment settings. Maybe it is in some places, actually, I do remember once doing a Myers-Briggs in treatment, early on, which was, it was intriguing, it was, it was actually quite eye-opening at the time. But you know, I know one of the biggest barriers is lack of personal self-awareness, and why do we have lack of personal self-awareness?  

Lucas Akai  11:30 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  12:42 

We don't know ourselves, we don't understand ourselves. Why don't we understand ourselves? While we don't spend much time educating about personality, which despite, with or without addiction, personality is stable, relatively stable over time. So you know, when you're 10, when you're 21, you're 30, your personality at the core, those those main traits like openness, your conscientiousness, how extroverted you are, you're, you know, I like that the OCEAN model, agreeableness, and neuroticism, as a personality profile. Those don't change a whole lot. And so, you know, how is it that I was 25, 30 years old, almost, and couldn't have told you how any of these core components of my own personality? Because I didn't, I wasn't even aware of them and I'd never had an expert or a leader tell me, 'Hey, this is something you should understand about yourself?'  

Daniel Snyder  13:41 

If, so, I don't know enough about this, that, certainly not educated on personality and addiction science to say that this would be, like, would be effective. But I would lean towards believing that with, personality assessment could be utilised to customise treatment to individuals, and should be. So yeah, that's something I'm curious about digging into further in the future. But yeah, watching my own biases, and how I recollect. For instance,  just a matter of fact, I, I, I would almost never, probably never recommend someone go to a 12-step group because of my strong personal biases against that approach to recovery. But that doesn't negate millions of people around the world who claim 12-step groups changed their lives. And, and so, I also wouldn't want to put a bitter taste in someone's mouth, like, you know, 'oh, don't go to 12-step groups, they're stupid and dsyfunctional and ideological and problematic,' like, you know, now I might have actually set that person up, you know, with a belief in their core that's against, that's opposed to this when -- 

Lucas Akai  15:15 

 right --  

Daniel Snyder  15:15 

that could, it could have been, perhaps, helpful to them. So very, very nuanced, you know, thing to walk about -- 

Lucas Akai  15:22 

absolutely -- 

Daniel Snyder  15:22 

finding what's helpful for a person. 

Lucas Akai  15:24 

And so when we talk about the struggles of referral and support, do you think that this is, like, an isolated issue to each individual, because each individual is so different, approach to this? Or is there like a systemic top-down weight? Which, you know, overtakes, maybe that aspect of it? 

Daniel Snyder  15:46 

It's, well, it's gonna probably be a little of both, and there'll be some overlap, for sure. And, you know, being a research personality, I don't, under, that doesn't minimise the value of story, and human experience and anecdotes. And I think one of the things that we do when we tell stories is we, we add to the collective intelligence of our societies. I tell my story, and it's mine and I tell you, the things that worked for me and the things that didn't work for me, and that, and then I put that out there. And, and then we hear many stories, we hear the stories of other people, and they say the things that worked for them and the things that didn't work for them. And over time, then we we arrive at a place where collectively we're a little more intelligent about this issue. And, you know, you get 1000 stories together, and now you have research and evidence, right?  

Daniel Snyder  16:48 

So I think the stories are the things that we use to connect human connection to this crisis, in this issue. And that, that's why I'll probably never stop telling my story. But yeah, wanting to be careful, I don't. Because I do see that often is where people's stories, they think everyone needs to do it their way, right?  

Lucas Akai  17:18 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  17:19 

It's like 'this worked for me. Now I'm gonna preach to the world and tell them what they need to do.' And it's like, well, it worked for you. Is it repeatable? I don't know. 

Lucas Akai  17:30 

What works for me, doesn't work for you [indiscernible]. Yeah. But, so, in regards to that, do you find that there is a bigger struggle in referring people is combating your own personal bias? Or is it like that systemic approach that is like the bigger obstacle, bigger challenge? 

Daniel Snyder  17:54 

I think we can dial into some core principles that are, are just gonna probably apply almost across the board and always be be either helpful or unhelpful. Like on a negative, and I'll just simply never change my mind on this issue, just, for sure. Like, one of the principles of 12-step groups is that they tell people they're powerless over addiction and I just think that's completely wrong and I'll, I don't see how that could ever be helpful. In any context, I don't see how telling people that they're powerless, is beneficial. Even if you find a way and I have met people like this, to twist it and say, 'Oh, no, knowing that I'm powerless is the thing that empowers me.' I'm like, 'Okay, now we're getting, now we're playing a game.' 

Lucas Akai  18:51 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  18:51 

But truthfully, we say a lot of words, you know, we as humans, but at the core of our being, we need to know certain things are true or not true. And if at the core of your being I tell you, 'you are a powerless individual and you will never have power over this thing.' You couldn't convince me with any amount of anything that I've helped you and I've made your life better. And I think what most people, why most people buy into an idea like that is a couplefold. They're in incredibly vulnerable position when they first hear it. They're, they're told, they don't understand the issue they're dealing with and the people that are telling them that they're powerless do. The, this is 100 years of history here, the principles of AA, MNA. So you really could never argue with something that's been around longer than you've ever been alive. 

Lucas Akai  19:55 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  19:56 

So if you don't understand it, well, that's because, you know, 'you have problems in your life and of course, you don't understand this. So just just trust us,' right? And so people get manipulated, coerced, abusively treated into, into believing that this is the best way to think about addiction. And, and I think it keeps most people stuck. And one, one anecdotal piece of evidence on that, anecdotal piece of evidence, is you know, people who are going to these meetings, 30 years after they stopped using drugs or alcohol, they're sober, they haven't touched a drug or alcohol for 30 years and yet they feel that they're, they're completely dependent, they couldn't miss a meeting, or they would -- 

Lucas Akai  20:47 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  20:47 

relapse -- 

Lucas Akai  20:47 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  20:48 

and they need to, they need to be calling themselves an alcoholic or a drug addict. And if they, if they don't do that, then they, they're becoming complacent in their recovery and it's just a matter of time before they fall back into it. It's fear-mongering. And it's, I couldn't imagine having to be tied to something for the rest of my life, because of fear of falling back -- 

Lucas Akai  21:17 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  21:18 

into addiction that to me, and in no way correlates with what freedom or change, or transformation looks like. You can't tell me, you've completely changed and you're a different person, if you have to go to a meeting five nights a week. 

Lucas Akai  21:37 

Right, right. Always looking over your shoulder. 

Daniel Snyder  21:39 

Yeah. So I mean, I know that's controversial and, again, I mean, I have to add a caveat in here, like, I don't hate 12-step groups or people that go to them, or think that they're a net-negative, per se, but you know, there's better ways that's, that's what I would say, there's better ways. And let's put, let's point people towards a better way, right.  

Lucas Akai  22:05 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  22:05 

So. 

Lucas Akai  22:07 

So that actually raises, maybe, the next question is, when you, you know, tell your story at these events, I'm sure. I mean, I would be surprised if this wasn't the case that you interact with individuals who have participated and believe that the 12-step programme works, and you know, all cases show that that maybe it has worked for them. Do you find that there's a combativeness there at times when, you know, they hear your story? You yourself have said you're not in favour of the 12-step programme, necessarily. 

Daniel Snyder  22:41 

So I tend to avoid this issue publicly, as much as I can because for sure people defend 12-steps, like, aggressively, and no doubt, like I mean, if you do feel that this thing changed your life, then you probably would defend it. So for me, those conversations tend to happen more in the one on one.  

Lucas Akai  23:05 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  23:06 

I, I wouldn't, I don't even think it's probably a good idea to get up in a public setting from a podium type thing and, and share the nuanced details of what ideal, like, how that worked for me or whatnot.  

Lucas Akai  23:27 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  23:27 

Not that I wouldn't do it if I felt it was appropriate or relevant, or the audience, maybe the audience would, was receptive.  

Lucas Akai  23:34 

Right, right.  

Daniel Snyder  23:35 

But um, yeah, again, a bit of a tough one to navigate. But for me, I find that that's more of individual conversation most of the time. Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I tend to reject disease theory of addiction as well. And not that I'm, like, locked into my viewpoints on this. I just think how we understand addiction is, is constantly evolving and, and I see where disease theory slots into that evolution of our understanding. And I think it was a necessary improvement from a moralistic viewpoint, where basically you're just a reprobate, dysfunctional sinner, you know, moral outcast. We're like, which was entirely what we based all our criminal approach of drugs in and then now, we developed a, we developed something better, we developed the disease theory, which takes the criminal aspect off, it humanises the person, it takes the moral aspect out of the conversation, all improvements, but not without its problems as well.  

Daniel Snyder  25:02 

If you just have a disease, where is personal responsibility in that conversation? Is it a disease that you were born with or developed? I mean, there's lots of proofs. There's lots of complexity in disease theory but when it trickles down into the general population, and we just talk about it as a disease -- 

Lucas Akai  25:25 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  25:25 

it's problematic because people don't understand the nuance and they don't understand the agency that they, they have to get out of that, which is possible. It really, really is. So I, I think that this has been put forward in academia as a addiction theory, I don't know the actual the best name for it. But learned behaviour, which is common way of understanding a lot of things in psychology, classical conditioning, makes more sense, is a little reductive. But it makes more sense to me and my own personal experience of addiction was primarily one of a learned behaviour I learned. It was reinforced, you know, reinforced conditioning that just can continue to happen. You use a substance, you get a benefit, your brain processes the benefit and the consequence, the benefit outweighs the consequence or at least appears to outweigh the consequence, therefore, you've reinforced that behaviour, and you repeat it and you get the same effect. And so, for me, looking at it that way, was actually, gave me way more ability to overcome it than if I had accepted a reductive disease theory which I was being fed -- 

Lucas Akai  25:40 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  26:36 

because I didn't see a space within that theory, for me to have personal responsibility in getting out of my struggle. That's probably a really long, big conversation there. But I'm very intrigued by the researchers who are rejecting disease theory right now. And there's some there's some notable ones, Maia Szalavitz, Stanton Peele, Zach Rhoads, just to name a few that are, like saying, 'No, it's not disease. There's something else going on here.' Gabor Maté actually, is not a disease theorist. But we don't throw the whole thing out either. Like I said, it's about the evolution of our understanding and this is a step in that process.  

Daniel Snyder  26:49 

And I think we'll continue to evolve our understanding, till it's, as we, once we really understand it significantly enough, then I think we'll be able to decrease addiction in our society, in our societies -- 

Lucas Akai  28:03 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  28:03 

right? And part of that truly is taking drugs out of the equation. Like in terms of like drugs are not what causes addiction, almost all the driving forces are underneath the drugs and took place long before the drugs entered the, entered the, the arena, right? So. And you guys know, or you've heard the Rat Park studies and and kind of how we arrived at that, have we talked about that at all?  

Lucas Akai  28:38 

Well, I don't think we've talked about it specifically. But I've heard I've heard of them, the Rat Park.  

Daniel Snyder  28:43 

Yeah. It's interesting.  

Lucas Akai  28:47 

It is. 

Daniel Snyder  28:47 

Because that was the concept for the longest time was you to, you know, to take drugs, you become addicted to drugs, right? 

Lucas Akai  28:54 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  28:54 

If you do at all. And that doesn't seem to be the case, with well, just as one example, the cohort of people who enter medical care for whatever reason, and are prescribed opioids short term, but they're on them long enough period of time to develop a dependence. Those people don't all go on to start using street heroin or fentanyl or develop addictions. I mean, almost very, very few do, if at all. So why is that? Obviously, it's not the drugs because they're getting an even better version of opioids than most people access on the street, and yet, their lives aren't destroyed -- 

Lucas Akai  29:41 

 right -- 

Daniel Snyder  29:41 

by that substance. So 

Lucas Akai  29:44 

Right. And so when we talk about like the 12-steps or these, the disease theory, just for our own understanding, clarification, that these fall under the ideological approaches that you've, we've discussed in the past or they just subsets of the overall? 

Daniel Snyder  30:01 

Well, 12-steps I would say, for sure is purely ideological. I mean, I don't see anything within the 12-steps that you could call particularly evidence-based. And that's, like, been proven through research to be if you do this, then therefore you have better results. But I would never negate the value of like, you know, looking at all the people you've harmed in your life, or making amends and asking forgiveness and all those other core components of 12-steps, like, incredible value in those, but is going to another person who you've harmed and asking them for forgiveness a necessary component of addiction recovery? 

Lucas Akai  30:50 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  30:51 

No, I mean, I don't. How is that a necessary component of addiction recovery? Is it, is it good for your personal, emotional, psychological constitution, your health and the the improvement of the relationships that you're in? Well, yeah, obviously, it is. And probably something all humans should learn to do is ask forgiveness and apologise when we're wrong. Right? Not really something to do with addiction. It's, it's a human thing. So, you know. But the disease theory, I don't see that as ideological, I see it as, well, I've already said it's a stepping stone in our cultural, social understanding of addiction and  anecessary one in which academics and researchers should continue to debate.  

Daniel Snyder  31:40 

The problem is, a lot of times when these things are being debated in academia, the general public thinks they're settled, right?  

Lucas Akai  31:50 

Yeah.  

Daniel Snyder  31:51 

It's like the general public. So I think if you asked most people is addiction, a disease? The vast majority would say yes, now, because that's the messaging that we've been given and told for the last 10 or 15 years, well longer than that, really, but that's when it's, it's been talked about in those terms -- 

Lucas Akai  32:12 

yeah --  

Daniel Snyder  32:12 

a lot. And so most people don't realise, hey, up here in academia, this is a debate. It's not solid science, right? But all science is like that, isn't it? And I think we forget that, right? I mean, I saw the great, a great meme the other day about the, if you have an egg, every day is really bad for your heart, and your cholesterol, it shortens your life. And then the same newspaper, one year later, an egg a day, really good for you, you know, it improves -- 

Lucas Akai  32:44 

keeps the doctor away -- 

Daniel Snyder  32:44 

and lengthens your life, right? Like -- 

Daniel Snyder  32:46 

it's like, this is science. So that exists in science, and we forget that in the, in, you know, in the general public, that these things, well, we're always learning as humans. 

Lucas Akai  32:46 

yep -- 

Lucas Akai  33:01 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  33:01 

Well, hopefully. 

Lucas Akai  33:03 

So another thing you mentioned, of course, was that you don't necessarily bring up the 12-step programme and your thoughts on that when you do these public speaking events. So maybe more specifically, so we can form questions for the future, is what exactly do you talk about that those public speaking events then? 

Daniel Snyder  33:21 

Yeah, okay, so I'm a pretty extemporaneous speaker, you might have figured that out. It's like an idea pops in my head and I just say it. So even though I like to have, you know, a framework and outline, notes -- 

Lucas Akai  33:37 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  33:39 

I tend to be kind of led by my heart, let's call it, and sometimes I'm surprised at the things that I talk about, because I don't have that intention.  

Lucas Akai  33:49 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  33:49 

Where I go a little more into a personal story and that sort of thing. And sometimes the dialogue is led by a conversation, or sorry, by a question that an audience member might ask, which takes it in a bit of a different direction. But generally speaking, my approach is to provide clear and factual background information, data and statistics on the Overdose Crisis as a, at large, simply so people can comprehend what's happening. So I'll give facts about the number of overdoses that happen in private residences. Well, why, first of all, why we're in an Overdose Crisis and how the drug supply changed. Why, why fentanyl entered the drug supply and replaced heroin. Why, how that happened, how that market is driven, how that market is controlled. And so we have a basic understanding that hey, fentanyl is a supply lead substance, supply lead change in the drug supply that's replaced heroin.  

Daniel Snyder  34:57 

It's significantly more potent than heroin, people don't have any idea what they're accessing. They don't know the quality or the content of this drugs that they purchase from the illicit market. These drugs don't come with labels, they don't come with any quality control, there is no regulation, hence, a toxic drug poisoning crisis. And, you know, clarifying that we are not in an opioid crisis, it is a different thing that's happening here and so giving that information letting people know that there's so many, 72 plus percent of overdoses happen in private residences, that men are disproportionately affected, that a large cohort are employed people that work in trades and transport. And so I'm breaking a narrative, that's, that a lot of people hold, unintentionally, subconsciously, everyone hears that. Here's the narrative, everyone or not everyone, that people can hold. Everyone that's dying is addicted. Obviously not true.  

Daniel Snyder  35:51 

Everyone that's dying is homeless, obviously not true. Everyone that's dying is in the Downtown East End. But when you see a news or media article about the Overdose Crisis, you inevitably see back alleys and puddles, needles on the ground, homeless people, this is the imagery we attach to this crisis. So by, by a very, by proxy, you assume without even thinking, this is where the crisis is -- 

Lucas Akai  36:23 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  36:23 

back alleys, you know, downtown, homeless people, and you forget, or you don't even consider that your next door neighbour who goes to work every day, could possibly be dealing with an opioid use disorder, it's not out of the realm of possibility. People who have these struggles don't look a certain way. So I break, try and break the stereotype and that leads always into a conversation about stigma, and within that stigma conversation is where I really try and share more personal parts of my story, that talk about why I was so driven to hide my addiction, why I was, you know, how I was always employed, how I was always housed. I talked about a story where coworkers were talking about a junkie, and the way that word made me feel and -- 

Lucas Akai  36:24 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  36:55 

the awareness of you know, seeing them call someone a junkie because of the way he looked, but accepting me who had a heroin problem, because of the way I looked. It's like, that highlights in people's minds the judgement they have, and I love to, I think one of the best ways that we can get people really thinking about their own, perhaps, hypocritical perceptions of drug use, is by getting them to reflect on their own drug use, which they pretend they don't have. But when we finally admit alcohol is a drug too, you know, then people are a little more willing to consider 'Oh, yeah, okay, I guess I use drugs.' So I'll say like, you know, 'if you use alcohol, are you willing to call yourself a drug user?'  

Lucas Akai  38:08 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  38:08 

'And is that a problem for you? Is there something inside you that wouldn't like that? No, I don't want to be, I wouldn't want to identify as a drug user.' And if that's true, you drink alcohol, but you wouldn't want to identify as a drug user, then maybe you have internalised stigma about drugs, and the people who use drug. Why wouldn't you want to call it, what do you think you're using? Why do you think alcohol is, right? 

Lucas Akai  38:34 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  38:35 

And so you know, that kind of conversation and that narrative changes the way people think, very quickly, it's surprisingly effective. And, and then, the main things for me when I, say I'm giving advice, let's call it advice, about helping people, loved ones who do have addictions is I don't go into, you know, what kind of treatment you should do or engage with, or this or that. I focus entirely on human connection. Like, there's nothing more important to help the person that you love, than being there for them, connecting with them, not reinforcing the shame narrative that exists in their life. So I'll talk about a shame narrative, almost like, everyone dealing with an addiction has a powerful voice in their head that's a voice of shame, that is always on and it's always looking for that thing that people around us are going to say that reinforces what we believe about ourselves, the negative beliefs, 'I'm a failure. I'm a loser, I'm stupid, I'm never going to accomplish anything, I'm never going to overcome this thing.'  

Daniel Snyder  39:42 

And that shame, runs 24/7 and then you have your family or your friends, and they say something without intention of harm, you know, with the best of intentions, but it reinforces the shame and it shuts that person down. And so that's why I rely heavily on, you know, when Johann Hari says 'the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection.' I'm just truly not obsessed with the behaviour and the drug use, I just don't even care, the person is far more important and if we can get underneath the behaviour, and underneath the drug use and see that person for who they are and connect with them in that place, then, you know, the, their life will change organically over time. And some of the best, I mean, almost all the stories of recovery are with stories of recovery over time.  

Lucas Akai  40:39 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  40:39 

Right? So, you know, there is no failure in that process. And that's what I actually believed for a very long time was that there is, you know, if your goal is abstinence, and you're abstinent for for 30 days, and then you have a lapse of use, you failed, and you must start at zero, and you can start counting days again from zero. And I. That, to me, is destructive. It's like a counterproductive because it's, again, we've now reduced your success to consecutive days sober, instead of being interested in. 'Hey, were there any improvements in your life' -- 

Lucas Akai  41:18 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  41:19 

'during those 30 days? Like, how was those 30 days? Do you enjoy your time? Are you seeing a future for yourself? Are you, you know, are you finding some meaning and purpose and things?' Or 'were are you sober today?' You know, it's, again, another thing that just is poking at that shame narrative, because we're miss, it's misdirection. We're focused on the wrong thing. 

Lucas Akai  41:44 

 Right, right. And so, okay, so you, now having explained the speaking events, when you do these long form speaking events, and of course, there's, I would imagine there's a question period, but how often do people come to you maybe after the event's over? And -- 

Lucas Akai  41:57 

just say, 'Hey, can we chat? Can we talk? Or can we set up like a meeting time or something? Always? 

Daniel Snyder  41:58 

Yeah, always, always, there's always, and there's a few. Some people want to help, some people want to get involved in volunteering, some people want to talk about, it's often concerned family members, that really is one of the most common that will come up afterwards and they'll want to talk about a son or a daughter or a spouse that's struggling. And that's where I just get to say to them, like, 'don't reinforce that shame, like, meet that person where they're at.' And it's tough, because people want specific, explicit advice. 

Lucas Akai  41:58 

Right, instruction, yeah.  

Daniel Snyder  41:58 

oh --  

Daniel Snyder  42:05 

Which I don't, yeah, I don't want to give right, like, definitely not, but you know, they'll talk about the difficulties in living with that person.  

Lucas Akai  42:50 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  42:50 

The the boundaries that are being violated and the way that they're mistreated or abused, and the toxic environment in the home, and, and, and that sort of thing, and then they want solutions for that part of it. 

Lucas Akai  43:04 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  43:04 

And that is really, really messy, it's really difficult. And it's so easy to be reductive. When you talk to a person about that stuff, because how do you, you encourage connection? But you also have to establish boundaries, right? And, you know, I often talk about how tough love as a concept is flawed, because it tends to mean that we cut a person off.  

Lucas Akai  43:36 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  43:37 

And so obviously, I'm opposed to that. But I'm not opposed to boundaries and the importance of, I mean, the loved ones in a, in a situation where they're, when they're dealing with someone that has an addiction, they almost always neglect themselves, there's not proper self-care for the, for themselves, there's not proper support for them. And because they're in survival mode, the energy is all on the loved one who's who's struggling, and at risk of overdose, probably too. And so, sometimes, the more important thing is to tell that person that they need to take care of themselves and that's not a message that they actually hear very often and take to heart, right? So you can't, yeah, they won't be effective at helping that, that person, if they're not getting care -- 

Lucas Akai  44:34 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  44:35 

too, right. 

Lucas Akai  44:38 

And so kind of on this topic, when an individual comes to you, say a mother or father, spouse, a loved one, and they say, you know, 'my partner, my son, my child, my daughter has started, you know, maybe there's theft, or these very negative, generally negative behaviours that is often associated? How do you approach that, in that regard? Because, you know, the mainstream approach is, you know, that's when you cut them off. If there's theft or if there's these types of things that really push the boundaries of, like, family relationships, right?  

Daniel Snyder  45:13 

Yeah. Again, it's one of those areas where I'm pretty cautious about what kind of advice I might give. And rather than giving something explicit, it's more about encouraging the person to find a way to dialogue with the person that they're, that, where the struggle is. And so I find that maybe the most helpful is, is giving that person de-escalation tactics. So a lot of times when conflict arises, it's because we try to address a challenging situation in the moment, as opposed to pausing and maybe realising this could be, this should be better addressed when both parties have calmed down a little bit, or it's more appropriate. And yeah, a person in disordered drug use, dysfunctional drug use, with an addiction, is not always prepared to have a rational conversation in the moment, right?  

Daniel Snyder  46:16 

Especially if that conversation is going to be primarily focused on their dysfunction or their misbehaviour. So, you know, I'll often just say something along the lines of, 'can you schedule, at the convenience of the person who you're helping, time to just sit down on even, on equal footing, and discuss the challenges that are happening around you?' And if it's framed in such a way that it's like, it's, 'I care for you, I'm concerned about you, and I love you,' then that person might want to come into that conversation. But it's, it's framed in 'your behaviour, you doing this, you're doing that,' the person is not going to sit down, because they already know all that stuff. They already know all the way they, they're doing things wrong, and they already know all the harm they're causing. And it's not like a person stealing, you're stealing from your loved one, you're taking money out of the house. They don't think this is good behaviour.  

Daniel Snyder  47:20 

They know at the core of their being, like they're, that they're harming and hurting and violating trust and, and making things more difficult long term. So sometimes I, it's like, we get stuck on making sure we point out, 'Hey, you're, you're hurting me' and 'you're breaking my trust.' And I don't know if that helps with the connection that I'm after. Right? 

Lucas Akai  47:51 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  47:51 

I think that that just reinforces the disconnection. And so mostly, the conversations that I have are, I try and just simply design it so that the person is coming up with the solutions themselves.  

Lucas Akai  48:03 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  48:04 

And I I'm just presenting them with, like, ideas about the environment, or the atmosphere or the emotional state that you want to be in with you're addressing, when you're coming up with your own solutions. And, and I guess sometimes with this stuff, it's easier to talk about the things that don't work than the things that do.  

Lucas Akai  48:24 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  48:26 

So, you know, because across the board, the things that don't work often just don't work for anybody. But the things that do work, like, they work for him and not for you. 

Lucas Akai  48:36 

Right.   

Daniel Snyder  48:36 

And they did --  

Lucas Akai  48:36 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  48:37 

So. So what doesn't work? Well, what typically doesn't work is just kicking people out and saying, 'I want nothing to do with you.' I mean -- 

Lucas Akai  48:44 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  48:44 

you, there's outliers, there's always an outlier. There's always, you know, there's always one person who wants to put up their hand and say, 'Well, my mom kicked me out and told me she was never going to talk to me ever again, if I didn't change my life, and I changed my life the next day.'  

Lucas Akai  48:59 

Right?  

Daniel Snyder  48:59 

Okay. Bravo. And I'm so glad that you did, but you're, like, rare, right? 

Lucas Akai  49:06 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  49:07 

Most people's like, become more suicidal the next day. And they, you know, their drug use goes up the next day and their risk use becomes riskier than next day, and they detach and isolate the next day.  

Lucas Akai  49:20 

Right, right. 

Daniel Snyder  49:20 

So these things. So the, for the vast majority of people, this is almost exclusively harmful. So this simply is not something we should ever do, even if one out of a million people would benefit from it. Right? So, yeah, I find that that's less, maybe less risk in talking about what doesn't work, then there is in making suggestions. And I'm a hopeful person too. So I always want to inject hope into the conversation. And so I often will cite research that encourages the family to know that addiction recovery is very possible, that most people do recover from addiction over time, when given support over time. And though, that kind of information is actually counter to what a lot of people believe about addiction, which is that it's forever and that once you have it, you're going to fight it forever, and that, you know, there's no hope and this person is probably going -- 

Lucas Akai  50:25 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  50:25 

to die or probably going to end up in jail or probably, I mean, again, sorry. You know, that's a 12-step belief, is that addiction leads only to one place, jails, institutions and death, right? And that is not backed by research. Research, actually is pretty explicitly the opposite. Almost everyone that struggles with addictions overcomes them and they don't even get treatment, per se, not in the traditional sense. Most people overcome because their life changes, and they realise there's other things that are just better than doing it this way. So, Stanton Peele and Zach Rhoads call it outgrowing addiction, they just outgrow it and I love that framing.  

Daniel Snyder  51:20 

So if that's how most people actually overcome is by outgrowing it, maturing over time, then what is, what is the responsibility of loved ones? Is to support the person over time, and be there for them and if connection breeds, improves that possibility, that outcome, then then do everything you can to avoid disconnection, do everything you can to avoid isolating that person, do everything you can to avoid alienating them, do everything you can to avoid, like, allowing that person to live like they're all alone and in this on their own. Let them know you're with them.  

Lucas Akai  51:59 

Right, right. And so it sounds like you get a lot of success then in these one on one talks in that regard. So when we look into the like the broader level, of course, when we see, you know, this disorder[ed] drug use with, in this case, severely negative behaviour, right, theft or what have you. And so when we looked at like the mainstream approach, the mainstream stigmas, it's what are the actions that we see taken in movies, TV, is to cut the person off most commonly, right? Or call the police, and then the police tell you to cut the person off. So how do we combat or how do you think? Or do you think it can be combatted, this like, top level stigma and belief that, you know, eventually, there is a point where you have to cut somebody off? How does that fit into the? 

Daniel Snyder  52:50 

Well, I think we have to reframe maybe some of the language a little bit. Because certainly there's going to be situations where it's reasonable and appropriate to kick a person out of the living situation. And so I would never want to say like, that's never a viable option, like that, that's probably a necessary option in many cases. But kicking a person out, doesn't necessarily mean cutting them off. And so there's a clear, you know, difference and that's where this word boundaries is maybe the more appropriate and more important -- 

Lucas Akai  53:29 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  53:29 

word is like, okay. You know, really, I mean, I would hope that a family can find a neutral and evidence-based educator like that could be a mediator -- 

Lucas Akai  53:44 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  53:44 

in that situation and help them because I don't, I wouldn't anticipate that the loved one has the wherewithal to figure this out, and what they should do. And I also know that the loved ones going to have a million different voices telling them what to do. Not, none of which are necessarily experts, or correct, right? Just people's opinions. And then. So how do you navigate that? I mean, if there's theft going on, there's practical things a person could do to protect themselves, but you may arrive at a point in time where it's just not appropriate to have this person in the house. So yeah, that's where that's where you have to really think critically about how you communicate that -- 

Lucas Akai  54:37 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  54:38 

because the way you communicate, it could be demoralising to that person or it could, or it could build hope, simultaneously. Can be like 'Sorry, you have to move out. You cannot be here and these are the reasons, but I still love you and care about you and have tremendous hope for you. These, this is not about you, this is about me creating boundaries for myself.' So, and then you can walk that forward so that the person, I mean, it's not ever going to be in their advantage to be homeless. Right? Does that mean it's your responsibility as a loved one to provide housing? It's, this is what I mean. It's messy, right? Like there is no easy way to walk this. 

Lucas Akai  55:30 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  55:32 

The messiness of the human experience and personal relationships. 

Lucas Akai  55:37 

And so, going back to the topic of your big speaking events, for a moment, where you -- 

Daniel Snyder  55:46 

say, say that again, Lucas?  

Lucas Akai  55:48 

Oh, yeah, for sure. So staying on the topic of when you do these big speaking events, and when individuals come to you, is how often do you find that their, their viewpoint on the topic or their experience is dominated by, kind of like, the mainstream stigma? 

Daniel Snyder  56:07 

I think that often I see people changing their minds when they're interacting with our, our presentations. And I think that's because we give them space to think about it for themselves. Don't tell, I don't, I don't tend to present in a way that's like, 'this is the way you should think.' 

Lucas Akai  56:29 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  56:29 

I try to talk in a way that's like, 'you should think about what you think.' And, and then it gets them. So maybe, you know, in coming days, a new way of thinking begins to come out of that person. I was really surprised recently when I did a presentation for a pension retirees association. So you can guess the age group, the demographic, and a couple of folks came up to me afterwards and admitted how judgmental they'd been towards people who use drugs for almost their entire lives, but didn't realise it. Like basically -- 

Daniel Snyder  57:12 

they had a moment of realising how judgmental they were and it was connected to the analogy of thinking about alcohol as a drug and your own drug use. And then they were all of a sudden, it was like, 'Oh, I'm a hypocrite.' And they -- 

Lucas Akai  57:12 

right --  

Lucas Akai  57:27 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  57:28 

and they came up afterwards and said that to me, and I was quite surprised, because, you know, I think often we don't think older people will, will change their minds. But I think that's one thing we do forget is that we want people to like, like here, I'm going to present you with evidence-based research. So you're obviously going to immediately update your thinking. Right, right?  

Lucas Akai  57:53 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  57:55 

And that's just not how humans change their minds about anything.  

Lucas Akai  57:58 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  57:59 

It happens over time. Like, that's how I changed my mind over time, right? And realising that some of the things that I believed were actually harming me or maybe even harming others.  

Lucas Akai  58:12 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  58:12 

And so then I was forced to update. I don't know if that, can everyone do that? I'd like to believe everyone can do that. But I'm not sure that we've created a culture where everyone is willing to, to update their thinking.  

Lucas Akai  58:33 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  58:33 

And where it becomes really problematic is when your, your, your well-being or your career or your reputation is tied towards holding your beliefs, right? 

Daniel Snyder  58:47 

So this is a bit off topic. But you know, it's a good analogy that I like to use. There's a gentleman in the states who is a young earth creationist, he believes the earth is 6000 years old. And so he has talked about this his entire life -- 

Lucas Akai  58:47 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  59:10 

his entire life. He's been talking about this as an educator. He even created a theme park with Noah's Ark, and its, people can go there and they can see the ark and the two animals on -- 

Lucas Akai  59:23 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  59:23 

the ark. And so his career, his financial security, his reputation as an educator is tied to a belief about the world and a belief that the world is 6000 years old. This person can't change their mind. If they change their mind, they are saying 'everything I've done my entire life is wrong.'  

Daniel Snyder  59:47 

'Everything I've done my entire life is meaningless. And all my books actually should come off the shelves. And and my theme park should close and I should resign.'  But so this person actually is not an open minded critical thinker anymore, because they're so tied to the ideology of their beliefs. And this happens constantly, in different ways in our cultures and societies that we, we, ideas should be ideas, they shouldn't own people. And I shouldn't be owned by an idea, either. And so. Okay, stop there.  

Lucas Akai  59:47 

Right. 

Lucas Akai  1:00:38 

Well, that actually, that brings me to a question, is within the peers and within this peer work, do you find that you're almost beholden to certain aspects of the way that you approach the toxic drug crisis? And that there's certain expectations on the information that is shared or isn't shared? 

Daniel Snyder  1:00:59 

Yeah, actually. Maybe we can dig more into that one next week, if you want to --  

Lucas Akai  1:01:05 

absolutely --  

Daniel Snyder  1:01:06 

put a note about that, because I want to think about that a little bit. 

Lucas Akai  1:01:09 

For sure. 

Daniel Snyder  1:01:09 

The thing that pops into my mind is is that sometimes I think there's actually a denial about the consequences and risk of drug use in the advocacy space, because we're trying to move the conversation into, eventually into the, into the space where we will be talking about regulation and legalisation. 

Lucas Akai  1:01:33 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  1:01:33 

And so there's a hesitancy to admit that that's not going to be perfect. There's a hesitancy to acknowledge that even within that framework, people will, new people will develop addictions. They will access legal drugs from a legal market, and they'll have a problem with it and it might even kill them or cause other consequences. And if you were to say that, if certain advocates were to say that it would be like, they were betraying the message, that. So this is why I try and remain, like, my position on drugs is drugs are neutral, drugs are neither good nor bad. Drugs are actually not all that, like, interesting in, in terms of their human, the way we interact with them as humans.  

Lucas Akai  1:02:28 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  1:02:29 

That's what makes them interesting. What's not interesting is a drug on its own. It's, it, you can't call a drug, a good drug, or a bad drug. 

Lucas Akai  1:02:39 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  1:02:40 

Context is everything. And so certainly within some of the more, what word should I use here? Intense advocacy that exists, I think that the glamour element of drug use, is still pushed through, it's still a little prevalent. I look at some of the actions of, like, the Drug User Liberation Front in Vancouver, who I'm a fan of, and I liked the work they're doing and I'm not actually opposed to it. But putting heroin, cocaine, and crystal meth into boxes and then distributing it for free, is... There's a lack of, there's some nuance in there that we're not getting, or that the public's not getting. 

Lucas Akai  1:03:40 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  1:03:40 

When, when we do that. So that's why, it's not clear in my thinking right now, in this is why, I think -- 

Daniel Snyder  1:03:46 

 to try and, try and dig deeper into this idea and maybe we can talk about it --  

Lucas Akai  1:03:46 

no worries -- 

Lucas Akai  1:03:51 

absolutely --  

Daniel Snyder  1:03:51 

next week. 

Daniel Snyder  1:03:51 

Well,  also. It definitely. I mean, it definitely seems like something that can be discussed with, over an hour rather than like with our last 10 minutes, for sure. We'll put a note in that for next week. 

Daniel Snyder  1:04:02 

Okay.  

Esther Cheung  1:04:03 

I've already put a note. 

Daniel Snyder  1:04:05 

Okay.  

Lucas Akai  1:04:08 

So maybe within this last 10 minutes, is there anything else related to what was discussed today that, you know, you want to travel back to or? 

Daniel Snyder  1:04:17 

Hmm. Well, we've been all over the place today, haven't we?  

Lucas Akai  1:04:21 

Just a little bit.  

Daniel Snyder  1:04:23 

Nothing's popping into my, my mind right now. 

Lucas Akai  1:04:25 

No worries.  

Daniel Snyder  1:04:27 

No, I'm feeling good about this conversation.  

Lucas Akai  1:04:29 

Good, good. Alright. Well, I mean, if that's the case, we can wrap a little bit early. 

Caitlin Burritt  1:04:35 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.