Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC. 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Daniel Snyder talk to Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung about different responses he encounters while doing community outreach, the presence of cynicism in peer spaces in response to the death and trauma peers face in their work and the importance of client centred treatment for those experiencing substance use disorder.  

Lucas Akai  01:58 

Alright, perfect.  

Esther Cheung  01:59 

Alright. Well, how was your weekend? Daniel? 

Daniel Snyder  02:02 

Yeah, good. That's a good week. I think. days just blend together. And remember, 

Lucas Akai  02:11 

especially as Christmas gets closer and closer 

Esther Cheung  02:14 

oh my goodness  

Lucas Akai  02:14 

the holiday season 

02:15 

I like I like Christmas. It's, it's fun. I'm not a big fan of the cold weather, though. So. 

Esther Cheung  02:21 

Same, same. Yeah. Did you mostly get out working this week? Or? 

Daniel Snyder  02:29 

Yeah, I'm doing lots of just bouncing all over the place. So and actually, tonight, the group that I'm working with that is, is planning just dark overdose prevention services in Langley is actually starting up like with a tent for the first time. Curious to see how that goes. I think they're expecting to get kicked off out of where they're planning to be 

Esther Cheung  02:57 

Are you helping with it? 

Daniel Snyder  03:00 

Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to, I'm helping. And I'm not helping. No, I am helping. But you know, it's one of those things where you're walking like this fine line, because, you know, there's certain people who are definitely cut out for civil disobedience type of stuff. And, and definitely, like, significant social issues in our culture have been shifted, because of people breaking laws, like civil disobedience and pushing the envelope. And so it's definitely got a place. But it's also not my personality or style. Generally, I'm more of like, well, let's see if we can be diplomatic about navigating this. But so I realized they're both needed and valid. And, you know, so I'm supporting the people that are doing this because I see it as necessary. And then I'm also trying to like, be careful, I don't get myself mixed up into something that makes my voice less effective, right. Like a tangent here, but like people who are gluing themselves to bridges or throwing tomato soup on artwork, I don't know that they're selling their message very well. Even though it's civil disobedience. It's not. Is it the most effective approach? So yeah, we want to I want to be effective at the very least if I'm going to do something. 

Esther Cheung  04:25 

Yeah. Is civil disobedience being planned with this.  

Daniel Snyder  04:29 

Well, technically, like, that's more of a long form conversation, I think. So perhaps, depending on who you ask, setting up a tent and providing overdose prevention services is not civil disobedience. It's just poor people providing services that are needed. And according to the, the ministerial order in British Columbia, which came into effect when overdose was declared a public health emergency. There's like legislation that says, “hey, these kinds of services are necessary, and they should be provided by anyone who deems them necessary wherever they want.” But then you have municipalities and cities who say, say, “No, your tent is not falling within our bylaws,” or” no, you're not. You're not allowed to do this on private property,” or all sorts of angles that they come at it with, because of all sorts of beliefs around, around the issue, right.  

Daniel Snyder  05:33 

So a lot of people still think that saving lives, say in this context, overdose prevention, administering Naloxone, is enabling behaviour, like it enables people to continue with their addiction. And so I'm like, so what, the alternative is just let it be, let ‘em be dead? At least we didn't enable them. But like, that's kind of what I hear when I hear that argument. But I think the angle that municipalities have at their disposal is through bylaws. And that's what they've typically used to shock people engaging in this kind of, kind of thing. In the past, but Well, I will just do it anyway. 

Esther Cheung  06:23 

There we go. Yeah. I guess going into then what we're gonna talk about this week is, does, I mean, you said this is the first time that they've set up a, one of these in Langley, right? But I guess, in the community, is it respected for these people to be coming in? 

Daniel Snyder  06:43 

Is it expected? Or? 

Esther Cheung  06:45 

Respect. Is? Is there-- 

Daniel Snyder  06:46 

respected. 

Esther Cheung  06:46 

respect? Yeah?  

Daniel Snyder  06:49 

Yeah, you know, I think the onus of respect is on, on like the people that are doing the service, putting the service together because There's a divide within the community. And it's on a lot of layers and level. Like, for one, I think you could get one person who had, you could find someone who supports a tent like this or an overdose prevention tent, as long as it's not near my house, right? So it's like, yeah, I support this. No, not but not they're not they're not doing right. And that's, I think, a big part of what's going on in Langley city right now, because the Health Authority Fraser health has. Like they fully support a service like this, and they've actually allocated funds for services like this. And there is an agency in Langley, that has won the proposal to run what would actually be a brick and mortar. Health contact center, that's how they're framing, they're calling it a health contact center. 

Daniel Snyder  07:48 

And what it would be is overdose prevention service that provides witnessed consumption, both the objection and smoking, there are other modes of consumption, but also really has wraparound services that like, so you can meet with someone and get referrals to other other services, if those are needed, or even perhaps counselling services, referrals into treatment, other medical care, like wound care, and that sort of thing. And so, like the need for that, and the, the fact and the support, for it exists from the Health Authority, but the city has constantly been like, wow, there's no good spot for this. And actually, like Langley has a very unique problem, where we have a township with his own mayor and council, and a city with his own mayor and council, and they're both Langley, but they're also both separate.  

Daniel Snyder  08:50 

And so a lot of times, there's this pass the buck mentality between the two councils, where it's like, well, this with, like, when the gateway of Hope opened, which provides shelter and supportive housing and things like that, in the community, it's in the city, although it's right on the edge, it is technically in the city. And for quite a number of years after that the city was like, you know, like we did our part. Now the next thing, the next service, whatever it is, that needs to Open to open in the township. But another valid issue that exists is that really the majority of the problematic visible substance use and homelessness issue that exists in Riley is by nature in the city. It kind of bleeds out to the edges of the city and into the township just slightly, but really the vast majority of it is there in that in that city core. 

Daniel Snyder  09:41 

And so, by proxy the services that that people will utilise and need should also be in that area right at And so unfortunately, the city will have the disproportionate amount of services related to to this kind of thing. and putting an overdose prevention site in, you know, somewhere in the township, like in rural farmland or something is? Well, I mean, they want it's been suggested to be at the hospital, right, Langley Memorial Hospital, which makes some sense. There's actually other communities where overdose prevention sites are at their hospitals, or near to the hospital. But for Langley, it doesn't make sense. There's it probably wouldn't be under utilised, if it was used at all. There's just you have to think of the demographic of people who would use a service like that. And I think also my own past experience, I would not have used a service like that, right?  

Daniel Snyder  10:45 

I think it's something that we need to keep in mind is that like, not every person who uses drugs would ever go to a safe consumption site, like even if it existed, and even if it was accessible, and even if, like, what are the reasons that would prevent them, the reasons that prevented me were mostly related to ego and pride, which was tied to stigma. And, you know, beliefs about myself and my drug use that. Maybe it was a survival part of survival that like, I thought I was better, I was better than people who ended up homeless and would use a service like that. So therefore, I could never allow myself to use a service like that, because then I'm going down to that level. Right. So it's, it's, uh, it's even people from not that life, still stigmatised self and others. Right. It's crazy. 

Esther Cheung  11:43 

Yeah.  Um. When you mentioned that there's the difference between the city in the township is there a difference in respect from the communities for this kind of work between the city and the township?  

Daniel Snyder  11:58 

The... huh...Well, I would say, I mean, just the nature of Langley is such that it seems the more progressive viewpoints are in the city, right. That's kind of across the board. I think when we look at big cities versus rural regions, you know, the liberals are in the cities and the conservatives are out in the countryside. I don't know why that is exactly. Maybe we want to analyse that too much. But it's probably somewhat similar in Langley, I know Langley is becoming less conservative, you can see that in the voting results over the last say, 10 or 15 years. And you look at some of the some of the shifts that have happened that, and the demographic that's changed lately is also becoming younger. So historically, like, it's true that younger people tend to be more liberal, and you grow more conservative with age and scenes. So with a lot of young influx of young families, a young people, it's not a surprise that there's more of a liberal perspective coming into Langley. But respect, I don't even know how to talk about that issue, respect and respect between the communities respect between the citizens within in the communities or the communities, like at a leadership level. Yeah, 

Esther Cheung  13:25 

I guess, with that question, as curious what the responses from the city or from, I guess, people in leadership probably, to that, but I mean, we can talk about all those aspects, whatever one you feel comfortable talking about.  

Daniel Snyder  13:40 

I think respect is generally there, like from our leaders and stuff, especially like leaders are caught are the ones who are generally a little more careful about what they say. So you can talk about an issue with respect that that doesn't mean you're allied with the people you're talking about at all. So, you know, there was for instance, there was a city councillor, who is no longer since the last election. But this person was always polite and cordial and respectful and even represented themselves as an ally, but was always participating in votes and actions that made these things more difficult and blocked. Services like that. Not because they were not because they don't think people deserve the services. But just because they had prioritised. They prioritise other things. So they prioritise a beautiful downtown core that's welcoming to shoppers, and to, you know, making Langley look beautiful, as opposed to anything that could possibly make Langley look like we might have drug issues, you know, that sort of thing. So is it about creating it for that person?  

Daniel Snyder  14:57 

Perhaps it was mostly about a narrative and And, you know, I know that they've made explicit comments to me even about, you know, these services are clearly necessary but not here. Not they need to be somewhere else. Years ago likely did not have an opioid agonist Therapy Clinic, which would be like a medical clinic that would provide methadone or suboxone supplicate to people. And even though it had been designated by Frazer health that we needed one and then we should have one. And the city's stance was, well, this service exists in other communities like surgery. So people who need it should just go there and get. And it just, what's funny is that out of the mouths of the same people, they talk about sustainable communities that require all like, amenities to be within a five minute walk from, for the next day, they're talking about, oh, the grocery stores need to be within a five minute walk. And this needs to be Oh, but people with addictions should drive to Surrey to get their Suboxone. So 

Lucas Akai  16:09 

Or take a three hour bus or something or.  

Daniel Snyder  16:11 

Yeah, exactly. A boss because Oh, yeah,  

Lucas Akai  16:14 

yeah 

Daniel Snyder  16:14 

of course. They should own a car, of course. Right.  

Lucas Akai  16:17 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  16:17 

And have a valid driver's licence? Yes. So yeah, little hypocrisy there, I think at times, but so what is that? What do we need to do to move that angle? And I think that that's where the humanization of people who use drugs comes in and increasing our compassion and empathy as a society. And I see that happening. I see I do. So I tend to try and remain optimistic, despite on the ground pushback. Because I know these issues. People who hold the more old fashioned view, let's call it kind of come by it innocently. Like I don't think they're made angry people who want to just think, you know, I think that they've come by their viewpoint. Because that's been the way we've done things for a very long time, in our, in our history, and in our culture. And for for a very long time. The, the moralistic viewpoint on substance use was that like, it's bad, you should not do it. And if you do it, you need to stop. And if you are still doing it, you're not part of society. Like you hear, we need to other you and Outcast you until you change and then we'll bring you back in. And so a lot of people still hold that view, just how do you educate people like that? 

Daniel Snyder  17:47 

Time patients human stories, it's talking about our own stories being vulnerable. But I talked to a gentleman in the summer, where we had a farmers market booth, and we're just, you know, there to talk to people about overdose about substances. And an older gentleman came up and talked to me for a few minutes. And in the matter of like, three minutes, he said, about five or six ideological things. And like things that he held as fact about drugs that were just wrong. But he was pretty open communicator. So I said, you know, I told him, I said, you know, just you just said, like, three things that are just factually wrong. And he got his response was, you know, you're right, or you're probably right, but I'm too old, to like, look into it. And I'm not going to change the way I think about this anyway, I'm just too old. I'm like, well, thank you for being honest, I guess this conversation is now over. Right. But I appreciate it. But that clearly exists, right? And at least he owned it. But, you know, there is a cohort of people out there who maybe this issue hasn't touched them emotionally touched their lives. And so what incentive do they have to learn, you know, whether they're right or wrong on on it, they may as well just hold their ideological beliefs forever. So 

Lucas Akai  19:10 

and So you mentioned farmers markets, of course, this evening, there will be the tent, the overdose tent. And so with these, like, on ground on field locations, when you're there, do you find that like, just the general community, not necessarily the leaders, but you know, everyday people that just walk or walking down the street? Are they receptive to these types of locations to sites or the site events? And not necessarily your speaking events, but more like the underground kind of everyday? 

Daniel Snyder  19:39 

Yeah, I think when we're in community like that, and an events like the farmers markets and stuff like that, the reception is always positive. You can sometimes see people who want to talk to you and because this is a sensitive issue, they they'll walk past two three times maybe looking over and then come up, and then they start will sharing in these incredibly vulnerable stories about the way they were impacted by overdose and by the crisis. So one of the things that has become really clear is that people who are touched by this, engage with it, and want to learn, and yet there is still some part of our population that hasn't really been touched, and have no incentive to engage with this issue. It's, so we've done community events for years now. Where we invite them, you know, just put it out there, create posters or advertise on social media a little bit, people will come.  

Daniel Snyder  20:43 

And we've always been fairly consistent with predicting about how many people will turn up and just in the last year, maybe the last six months, that's really changed, like it's declined, and not just in Langley have talked to, you know, colleagues and other other municipalities and cities around the region. And they're experiencing the same thing. So either it's a fatigue in within community where people are tired of hearing about this. I mean, technically, we're in the seventh year of a public health emergency and things haven't improved at all. They've gotten only worse. And so is our people starting to think this is just normal. Now, how many people actually think about overdose, as in we are in a public health emergency, still? Or have they just accepted it as that well, six people die every day? This is the way it is. And if, if that's what's happening, and people have stopped engaging with this, because it's become normalised in a sense, that's a little scary to think about how we how we can move forward, because I do feel that there is good evidence for the fact that this isn't going to stop around anytime soon.  

Daniel Snyder  22:08 

I don't really see anything that will address like fentanyl in the drug supply, or would make some kind of dramatic change in the drug supply. And that's the bottom line, right? Like if we, we look at all the issues here, and we take all of them, take it all apart, there's really only one core issue. And that's that people take a substance don't know what they're taking in that thing kills them. So we have a poisonous drug supply. So we often or almost always end up talking about addiction. When we talk about this, but I mean, addiction is a secondary issue, as far as I'm concerned, in this crisis, like do we need systems and services to help the people to help people who identify substance use disorders and want help with it? Obviously, we do. But like, you can do as much of that as you want. And there's still a whole bunch of people using drugs dying every day. And so that's that's I just I think we're Miss focused sometimes or spread too thin, or we want to address all the issues at once. And maybe we should just eliminate some of the peripheral and focus more on on just the core issue.  

Daniel Snyder  23:21 

But no one will talk about addressing the drug supply, because the answers to addressing the drug supplier are cheap, located. And there's no policy for how would we ever do that? How would Canada do that? under the thumb of America, and America, as you know, they're still heavily invested in in a drug war mentality. It's highly profitable. Like there's a lot of dollars for the US government and the industry that exists around enforcement. 

Lucas Akai  24:00 

Absolutely, absolutely. And now you mentioned the almost normalisation for that sense of normalisation around the toxic overdose crisis, the toxic drug crisis in British Columbia in particular. And so now, nowadays, when you've watched, you know, CTV global news, it's always, you know, as you said, you know, six people today have died or seven people today have died. And it's almost, it's almost similar to like, just a death, that daily death counter. Do you think there's a way to shift from that narrative? Or do you think that nowadays, it's become so entrenched that this is just a normal aspect of life in DC, that it's something that just has to be dealt with, rather than completely shifted away from? 

Daniel Snyder  24:45 

Um, I actually wonder if maybe the fact that this is becoming normal, might give governments a little more leeway to address it, because people aren't paying as close attention anymore. I mean, I remember when naloxone is virtually an uncontroversial policy, the fact that we have a policy that has rolled out I think over a million Naloxone kits in the last 10 years the no one thinks that that's a bad idea. But they did, right? They did I remember 567 years ago, have not even, you know, lots of ridiculous stories about Naloxone, and both like, the most absurd one that Naloxone enables people to just keep in their addiction, right, so, but other stories that really had no merit or foundation in reality, like people taking the needles from Naloxone kits and using them for an injection drug use, I mean, if it ever happened, and it like was almost was so rare, you might not ever find the person who did that. They're not the type of syringes that are, are useful for intravenous drug use there.  

Daniel Snyder  26:07 

They're too big and it's not. And not only that intravenous drug use syringes are available for free. And like, like everywhere, right? So why would someone steal a no oxygen syringe? Or take the Naloxone strange? There are all these stories there was that story? Oh, yeah, that's even more absurd actually might be the most absurd one of all was the yo yoing myth, where, where people were apparently overdosing on purpose, to die and then take Naloxone to come back to life because it was such a rush. Like somebody watched too many. 

Lucas Akai  26:42 

I remember I remember seeing that and like some documentary. 

Daniel Snyder  26:46 

Yeah, well, like Flatliners the movie, I don't know if you remember that one where they would kill themselves and then go on this, go to the afterlife, and then they'd get shocked paddles. And come back. I think someone watched too many movies because no one was doing this with Naloxone, no one is dying on purpose, just so they can be revived. Right. But that myth existed, so So anytime the government, you know, does anything, you're gonna have people making crap up and opposing it. So perhaps like I was saying is that the normalisation of it might take some eyes off, that gives the government space to address things that will really make a difference. But, I mean, I'm sceptical because I don't think the provincial government could make a real difference. And what the federal government needs to do, I don't think that they have the capacity to do that because of the nature of their relationship to America, to the World Health Organisation to the world drug forum.  

Daniel Snyder  27:50 

These, there's lots of countries in the world that are not even close to nearly as progressive as Canada or British Columbia is on drug issues. And the idea of say, like decriminalisation, which we're putting into place starting in January next year. That is controversial, right. It's controversial here. People don't get it. People can't wrap their heads around it. The language is complex. At the most people perceive that we are decriminalising drugs, they don't really draw the connection to the fact that actually what we're decriminalising here are people. The drugs are inert substances that aren't impacted by you know, the but they don't have feeling one way or another about the policies we create about them. The people are the ones that we either treat, like criminals or not. And so we're making, you know, this is where I remind myself that we are making progress, even if it's incremental. But I mean, that's the only way to make progress. Right. It's little steps incrementally. So. 

Lucas Akai  29:02 

So you mentioned that events nowadays are getting lower and lower numbers, and this is something that's happening pretty well across the board. Do you find that maybe as a result of the normalisation that we've talked about that even the assumption of the people that are attending these events tend to be like, well, this is kind of just like a Canadian issue now less rather than, like this big crisis that you know? 

Daniel Snyder  29:26 

No, because they are almost always there with a story about how it's important to them, or how it's impacted them. And so, you know, for a person like that, they will always have a reason to engage in the issue. So yeah, even though that we did or last week, small number 20 Some people came out but highly engaged meaningful to them. Great interaction, great questions. And that sort of and clearly also, for for majority of them, it seemed the first, like the first time truly engaging with this issue. So there's an appetite out there, like there are people who have are hearing it for the first time. And they're always there always will be right if people continue to die, their families and their loved ones, may have only just now realised the importance and significance of this issue and want everyone to learn.  

Daniel Snyder  30:35 

And that's really important. Like I was just noticing at a meeting I was at yesterday, or my play cat meeting, it's just thinking about how the faces that how many faces have changed, like, I've been part of that committee for five, five years or so now. And very few people that were on it five years ago, when I started that work are still there, it's like a completely new group of people is coming. Some of them are there in professional capacity, like they're assigned there for from their employer, because they work in that field. But others are there as community members and the community member ship has turned over, just organically, multiple times. So I mean, that does highlight the burnout, and the exhaustion that exists in this space. And that, like for me, I bounced between treating it as a job, which is like something I always need to do sometimes.  

Daniel Snyder  31:42 

And then the emotional investment that exists and the personal passion that exists like, those things can keep you going but but those are also the things that wipe you out, when you get a message from your friend on Sunday, about his best man from his wedding eight years ago, who just overdosed and died last week, and He has four kids and wife had and and then you're like, oh, yeah, I gotta, I gotta keep going. And that you want that information to motivate you. But sometimes it's just discourages you to the point of like wanting to give up. And I think that that is what happens to a lot of people is that there's way more bad news to use. And how do you cope with that? Right? I noticed for myself in the summer, I was not coping with it well, and I, as a result, you know, I was getting angry. And so it's suppressed anger, that ends up bleeding out on to the people around you, right?  

Daniel Snyder  32:52 

And it's like, and people are like, Hey, you're you got an edge to you right now, or you're not very nice lately. And I'm kinda like, what's going on with me again, put my finger on it. But you know, you need to step back from the work sometimes and recharge, because you're virtually guaranteed that someone's going to call you next week and tell you about a new that died? I don't really love any of us engage in like that right now. 

Lucas Akai  33:24 

Exactly. And so maybe on the topic is the individuals on your committee with your cat team to have left the team? Do you think that the lack of one Chevy in terms of its membership? Does it affect the way you guys can operate always like having this rotation of people coming in and out of committee force or even yourself having been there and seeing the teams and the faces shift? Multiple times you find that that's a hamper to the overall project? Or? 

Daniel Snyder  33:59 

Yeah, I think it would be just even at a macro level looking at this work, and how bureaucracy approaches it. And government approaches it a lot of times that people aren't dedicated to it for long periods of time. That's not always within their control either. Like I'm thinking about our local public health office here. And we've had a number of community health specialists, public health nurses that are assigned to work and and then they're assigned to something else, like randomly not, they didn't ask to be assigned to something else. And I just happened during COVID. And this was the most significant like this happened everywhere during COVID. Like all the Fraser health people who were connected to overdose work in the community, were suddenly thought to do nothing with it, and that they all were they all were seconded into COVID response work, and we can while we won't wait Good debate if that was a right or wrong decision.  

Daniel Snyder  35:02 

I mean, I think it's pretty clear in retrospect that other things continue to exist, even while COVID existed. So neglecting those other things, was probably an error. But we, we reacted the best we knew how at the time, right? I guess, in retrospect, what can you do. But that was heartbreaking. And it was really, really discouraging to have such strong involvement from Frazer health. And then they're like, basically, oh, this is not an issue were allowed to work on at all. And so you, I don't know why Langley has had I had for four public health nurses, community health specialists that have been assigned to the community option two minute work with cat over the last five years, that's for people that have to learn what the committee is, and how it operates, they have to get to know the people, they have to integrate themselves into the work and be on boarded. And that takes months. And then they then they kind of gel with the team. And then for whatever reason, they're assigned to another, you know, another department and they're gone. And then someone else has to do the orientation. And so that that kind of stuff is so counterproductive and happens constantly.  

Daniel Snyder  36:32 

That that creates a problem with community members, I think that the organic, you know, kind of turnover is not always a bad thing. Because the thing that motivates community members is passion. And if your passion is waning, then you probably should do something else, or recharge or find out why. And then that creates space for new passion, which comes in. And, you know, when passion as a motivator, can be highly effective in bursts, write short term bursts. And that seems to be how it works. And then, but passion can't always be sustained over long periods of time. And that, you know, I guess maybe there's a responsibility on us as leaders in that space to watch people that they don't earn them so themselves out on their passion, and are more grounded and balanced in their approach to the work. So I know I fluctuate, I fluctuate, I have days where I'm running on passion. And I have days where I'm just doing a job. And I'm always kind of trying to keep an eye on that to make sure. It doesn't always become a job, right? Like that. That if if I fell into that pattern, and it was like every day, I'm just going to work. That might be a good sign that like it's time to do something new or find out re why I'm depleted like that right. 

Lucas Akai  38:11 

Right. Now, you mentioned the fact that this is one of those areas where there's a constant exposure to trauma death. And do you find that that is a deterrent for those coming into this field of pure work that don't necessarily have lived experience? And even with like the nurses and such that you take on from the Fraser Health Association? Do you find that that can be a shocker at times? And how prevalent it is? 

Daniel Snyder  38:43 

Yes, certainly, some people have a better constitution for dealing with death than in traumatic incidences than others. I wonder if that that it like you're weeded out for that kind of automatically. You're not going to come in and engage with this unless you might have some capacity for it. But that doesn't minimise the toll that it takes on people like you. I think I have that constitution. I can handle it. And one of the ways I handle it is through humour, for sure. Like when I speak publicly, I've I don't know how this happened. It kind of happened naturally. It maybe is just a gift or a skill that I have. I didn't learn it. But I have an ability to add levity and humour into the topic of overdose. 

Daniel Snyder  39:39 

And without making light of it without mocking it or making people you know, feel uncomfortable because we're laughing and telling a joke, in the same breath that we talked about people who have died. I really see it as necessary. I actually think that you can't talk about this topic long term, without lead. At and without finding a way to add a bit of humour into it. And yeah, I mean, I see that in comedy, right you we see, comedians are experts at taking dark, difficult topics and making them hilarious. And we're all like, oh, yeah, I'm so glad he talked about it that way, because it's easy. It's easier for me than if it was like in a more direct like harsh, truthful way. We're just really levity in life. Right. So it's, it can't be serious all the time. And yeah, I find that important. I do. 

Lucas Akai  40:39 

And do you find that in cases where there isn't that levity, or there isn't that ability to cope? Is there like a growing sense of cynicism? As a result? 

Daniel Snyder  40:50 

There is there definitely. Yeah, just came out of a meeting. And afterwards, the people with lived in living experience, were meeting just briefly for a debrief. Right. You know, how was that? How was that meeting for you? And this and this, and it was outrageously negative? It was. It was very cynical. Very. Yeah. It's a problem. It's a problem. It's a problem. For me, it's a problem. Because if you're predisposed to a more cynical view of life, you might talk and act that way. And the problem, I think, with cynicism is it's really contagious. And I saw that I just witnessed it in that room, because there was one or two people who are maybe a little more on the cynical side. And they voice their cynicism. And it opens the door for everyone to voice their cynicism, and then hearing complaining bitch fest, right. That's just what you're, what you're in. And it's like, I don't know if we're helping anything or right now.  

Daniel Snyder  42:12 

Now, we're just sitting here complaining. And yeah, and I think that that's common to advocacy work. I think the anger and asceticism are like the main drivers of why people want change, right? I mean, of course, we're angry about things that we have a valid reason to be angry about. We're cynical about the systems because they've been problematic for long, long periods of time. And they're not changing rapidly enough. So you know, we have these facts, and we have this knowledge. But change is that you don't drive change by continuing in the cynicism and the anger, you have to find a place to meet people, like equally and if I'm angry, at a government or a leader, particular leader, or party leader, or something like that, if I want to blame that person, for the situation that we're in, I'm not I don't see that I'm helping find solutions. And I think that, so I intentionally try to avoid falling into that. Those kinds of conversations and pitfalls of thinking, but it's very, very common in the advocacy space to see.  

Daniel Snyder  43:30 

To see action that is motivated primarily because of, of anger, like this action will take place because of anger. It's not all bad, though. You know, I'm like, I'm a little torn, right, like Mom Stop the harm did an initiative a couple of years ago, where they did chalk drawings of bodies on the street, like you'd see a truck driver and get a murder scene. And they put them in places like on city halls and on on the street, in front of City Hall, or on the side of the building or MPs and MLAs offices, they would go do it. And it's temporary graffiti, like you wash it off with a hose. It's not causing long term damage, right. But that that action was motivated by despair, by anger and by frustration by cynicism with the system. That's why they're targeting political leaders. That's why they're targeting MPs and MLAs. They need these people to listen, and they, there's this sense of frustration that these people aren't listening because they don't speak up and say anything about the issue or that the things that they do say are just too clearly talking points that they've been passed, and they're not educated personally, on the topic.  

Daniel Snyder  44:43 

And so, in that case, it's like yeah, I feel good about that, actually, and I feel it's valid and I feel the reasons are necessary like then. But then you have other things where it just feels we're just pointing fingers and blaming people, is there a purpose to this speech? 

Lucas Akai  45:06 

Right. And have you found that that cynicism, especially nowadays, does it bleed into the way that these peer workers interact with, not just individuals on through their worker or is that?  

Daniel Snyder  45:19 

I think the nature of human humans is such that you, you become a lot like whoever you spend time around, period, across across cultures and across societies. And so, I mean, that's been a cliche that we've known for a long time, like, you know, you're a lot like your friends, right. And so I think identifying the cohorts that are becoming negative, or that 10, when they get together to be the cynical ones, and maybe have finding a way to balance that out, like, bringing an alternative perspective in there, or a little more positivity and optimism is, is necessary. And, you know, the ones who have suffered the most or have been oppressed, the most or marginalised, the most, are often the ones that have the most cynicism and the most frustration due to the reality that they live in. And so, you know, if you put a whole group of those people together, like it's not a surprise that it that it trends towards this kind of a negative disposition.  

Daniel Snyder  46:32 

And so yeah, we have some responsibility to not allow that to run away with itself. I don't want to self help groups can become just complaining groups, right? I've been in, you know, NA meetings or smart recovery meetings or self help groups. That devolve? Right, if they did not think that's helping anybody? We're just completed now. 

Lucas Akai  46:58 

Right? Right. And so maybe circling back to saying on the topic of groups and support, when you run these, these these tents, or these farmers market events, do you find it easy to suggest areas where they can receive support from different organisations, individuals that come to you? 

Daniel Snyder  47:19 

We have, yeah, we've got some resources that we have determined, are the most helpful, I think this is a real important issue that you bring up because there's no good policy in Canada to determine what support services for people with substance use disorders should look like. So you know, you can have some experts come up to you, and tell you that you should go here and do this or do that. But that doesn't mean that the services or programmes they're referring to are or even evidence based, or particularly helpful, or might even be a fit for you. Yeah, I was just talking the other day about how we really, like typically, if someone if some random person approached you, and was just honest, and said, Hey, I have an addiction. And this is the problem I'm dealing with, like most, mostly, people would respond by saying you should go to treatment. And they don't know why they say that. They just, that's what you say, right? And that's where you go, right? And that's the place that fixes you.  

Daniel Snyder  48:35 

And, you know, so what are we dealing with when people come up to us at farmer's markets, there's really, in this context, there's two main categories of people, there's their generally loved ones. So they're a friend or a family member of someone who's who's struggling with substances or using substances, maybe they're not struggling, they just use substances and they're at risk. The person deems them to be at risk of overdose, or their loved one has already died. And they still need support. Because you're dealing with the aftermath of someone who's been lost, you're in grief and mourning and and you maybe don't even know how to process a natural death. And this is a death that you feel it most likely feel was preventable, and happened as a result of bad policies. And so what do you support people like that? So we often recommend these support groups one is called Holding hope, holding hope for the loved one who's still alive.  

Daniel Snyder  49:46 

And the other one is called Healing Hearts, which is for those that have lost their loved one. And those are run by mums stop the harm. They're one of a few organisations who I would feel calm I have trouble making that recommendation. You know, Langley community services and other community service agencies that are make themselves available with free free counselling to their citizens. They've also all really embraced and evidence based harm reduction, client centred, you know, let's give it let's give agency to the client approach. So, I mean, I know I participated in counselling myself and Langley Community Services years ago, and it was very much like, what do you want in your life? What do you think you need as a that would help you deal with your substance use? Do you want to be abstinent? Do you want to just reduce like, and those kinds of that approach is uncommon. It's new, it's, it's good, but it's uncommon, right?  

Daniel Snyder  50:50 

My experience when I was young, and went into residential treatment was mostly like, ‘Hey, you got serious life problems, and you don't know anything about living your life and if you so we're not going to ask you anything about it. We're just gonna tell you tell you what to do. And all the things you're doing wrong and the things you should do,’ so very much not what I would call client-centred, or giving any agency to the to the patient, to the resident. Mostly, like talking down to that person. 

Caitlin Burritt  51:23 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.