Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC. 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Daniel Snyder talk to Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung about the stigma that surrounds substance use and people who use drugs. He describes the internal stigma he faced as his substance use escalated and the lengths he went to hide his substance use. Daniel also explains that many people in the trades are affected by the overdose crisis and discusses his experience maintaining a trades job throughout his substance use.  

Esther Cheung  02:03 

Oh, how's your week so far, Daniel? 

Daniel Snyder  02:06 

It's been a mostly good week, except I got sick. So I had a couple really, really crappy days. But yeah, I visited the island and saw my dad, so that was nice. Before he escapes to Mexico for the next five months.  

Esther Cheung  02:20 

Ah, he's one of the snowbirds? 

Daniel Snyder  02:23 

Mhmm, mhmm. 

Esther Cheung  02:24 

Very nice. Were you working your paint job this week or were you doing ?  

Daniel Snyder  02:31 

This week, so far I've done exactly two hours of painting. 

Esther Cheung  02:35 

Got it. How about this stuff with Facebook, was it? 

Daniel Snyder  02:40 

Well um, yeah, I'm actually at an event tonight, we have admission.  

Lucas Akai  02:44 

Oh.  

Esther Cheung  02:45 

Cool  

Daniel Snyder  02:46 

Where I've been invited to speak at, I'm not, I didn't arrangement it.  

Esther Cheung  02:50 

Oh, great!  

Daniel Snyder  02:50 

It's, it's something, they've called it a Community Connect Forum or something. And there was a video series put together by a team in Surrey about, it's been called Building Hope: Men in Substance Use in the Trades or something along those lines, because men and trades are really disproportionately affected by the overdose crisis. And a very large number of the deaths are people that are employed in that line  of work. And so because of my trade experience I kind of got involved in in that video. So I was part of that video production. Now they're showing it in different places and stuff. It's cool.  

Esther Cheung  03:31 

Interesting. Do you know what you're going to talk about tonight?  

Daniel Snyder  03:35 

No, because the format is more like interactive, casual, like, like panel or dialogue as opposed to a presentation. So I think it'll be more responding to people's questions and just interacting. 

Esther Cheung  03:47 

Got it. Well that's sweet though. It's great that you'll be able to use it, use your experience.  

Daniel Snyder  03:52 

Yeah, I love doing that kind of stuff, it's good. It's always satisfying. It's very fulfilling to be able to share in that way and then have people engage and listen. And it's, I,  it's not nearly as satisfying in the online world because people are so fake and, and you just have -- 

Esther Cheung  04:08 

yeah -- 

Daniel Snyder  04:08 

to deal with so much criticism that never happens in real life.  

Lucas Akai  04:12 

Right, right.  

Daniel Snyder  04:13 

People are way more congenial and polite, you know? 

Lucas Akai  04:18 

And online it's like certain stigmas are almost amplified to some extent. 

Daniel Snyder  04:22 

That's a good way to put it for sure. Yeah. People, you see the most extreme perspectives, like I saw someone comment one time about how really nobody that overdoses should be revived, that if they walked past someone overdosing, they would let them die, because it's their fault. Not only is it an extreme lack of comprehension, but I mean, the person who has that perspective is so closed off to hearing another perspective. It's just mind-boggling that that kind of lack of compassion exists in this world.  

Lucas Akai  04:56 

Right, right. Well, I mean, those that attend to actual in person events are most likely more open to hearing --  

Daniel Snyder  05:04 

yeah, that's true, which creates another dilemma for, you know, those of us that want to reach --  

Lucas Akai  05:09 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  05:10 

um, that part of the population that maybe is not engaging in this issue, they're also not going to be coming to an event like this.  

Lucas Akai  05:17 

Absolutely.  

Daniel Snyder  05:18 

Sometimes you feel like you're preaching to the choir, like everybody who shows up is already allied with you, right?  

Lucas Akai  05:23 

They're kind of, everyone's in the same book already. So last week, you kind of went over your history, your substance use history, and just like the things you've done as an activist and as a peer, and one thing that you touched on quite a few times was not only just like, the general stigma, so I guess it's relevant to kind of what we were just talking about, but also the things that you did personally, and that, you know, others did, to hide the substance use, and still put forward, like, you know, a non-user front, so to speak. I don't know if that's necessarily the right way to put it, but basically, to still appear as if you're, you know, functioning outside of the substance use, right?  

Daniel Snyder  06:05 

Right.  

Lucas Akai  06:06 

And you mentioned that this was a very common thing, because, you know, the people that we see, most often highlighted, you know, in the Downtown Eastside and so forth, is not necessarily the majority and many users will oftentimes still be, you know, working their nine to five, or whatever it is. So maybe kind of touching on that and your experience over the years, over substance use and then outside of it as a peer, maybe today, we can speak a little bit to the stigma, and like the two sides of that stigma. The stigma that is people looking into this crisis, and then the stigma that maybe you felt on a personal level. So maybe just starting with that, and kind of explain, you know, the nature of the beast and give us a foundation?  

Daniel Snyder  06:56 

That's a great thing to dive into. I guess I would probably just call it, I'd call it self-stigma, and why that developed in ne, I mean, probably is rooted a lot in the perceptions, the instruction that I received as a young person, right?  

Lucas Akai  07:15 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  07:16 

You know, I never had, I think I mentioned last week, I never really had a framework for both drug use and addiction at all, because it wasn't in the, in the family circle. It wasn't. Now it actually was, it just wasn't talked about and wasn't something -- 

Lucas Akai  07:33 

Yep. 

Lucas Akai  07:33 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  07:33 

as I was ever made aware of, right. Apparently, there was some alcohol disorders on the extended family, my mom's father, and it looks like even in my dad's parents' side, but it was always so secret and the hidden, right?  

Daniel Snyder  07:47 

And so my parents simply never talked about it, but they also never had, they didn't have any of their own struggle with substances. It was just not. I never remember them drinking or anything other than very, very rarely at a social event or something. Extreme moderation, right? So it wasn't something, it's just normal life. And so any of the beliefs that I formed were mainly through mainstream media, mainly through movies and, you know, I think drug use is primarily portrayed at the two extremes, right? Majorly fun, and a super good time. Or, you know, your life is destroyed, you're in jail, or you're dead, and that there is no, like, middle ground at all, in terms of the way media represents drug use. So, truly, like, I think I had both those extremes, maybe somewhat embedded in me, in terms of some kind of an awareness.  

Daniel Snyder  08:55 

But when my drug use started, I only experienced the positives, really, for the most part, right? Obviously, you don't end up in jail or dead, generally speaking, outside of a toxic drug crisis -- 

Lucas Akai  09:09 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  09:10 

the next day, so you know, the consequences... Well, there were no consequences to speak of, at least none that I was initially aware of. However, I think it was maybe more of the conservative ideology, maybe more conservative Christian beliefs, ideas about what an adult life is supposed to look like, that were communicated to me both directly and indirectly, just through role models and through, you know, teaching. That gave me a belief that, you know, an adult is supposed to be a certain way. Right? And I don't so I don't know where I internalised this idea, but part of that was well drug use is not acceptable. 

Daniel Snyder  10:04 

And so actually probably felt like I had some leeway as a young person, like, ' oh, I'm not quite an adult yet, right?' Like I can play and have fun, and maybe explore this a little while before I have to become a mature, responsible person. But I was always conflicted for sure. Which is why I look back and see parts of my, myself that wanted to justify or give validation to the, to using drugs, right? Even those comments like about believing that I was truly an exceptionally responsible drug user. And I do want to qualify all this by saying like, retrospectively, I don't think drug use is inherently negative, or a bad thing. And I wouldn't want to be the person who... Like I always want to treat and talk about drugs in neutral terms now.  

Lucas Akai  11:03 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  11:03 

You know, neither positive nor negative, they're, they're tools and the context and the experience within which we utilise them and the reasons for which we utilise them are the most important factors. And so. So, you know, there was always two lives, there was always two circles, there was a group that I was okay with using drugs with and then there was a social, the family circle, and kind of maybe even church circle, and a group of that was over here. And they didn't hear about or know about those experiences, and there was no way of allowing these to overlap, right.  

Daniel Snyder  11:44 

So that actually that, that concept of a secret life was very alluring to me. Very, you know, it sounded secret agent-y or something like that, right? Like gave kind of this, built it, built up in my mind, made me maybe think I was more special in some way. So even though there I wasn't experiencing a lot of negative consequences from the drug use, I still had this awareness that I had to keep it separate from some people that there was just people wouldn't understand, no matter what. And you know, as as time progressed, and as, obviously, the substance use did turn into what would be an addiction, and a substance use disorder, and began impacting other areas of my life and began escaping that bubble of protection.  

Daniel Snyder  12:52 

So you know, when, when the consequences do start piling up, the people that you don't want to know about it, find out inevitably, right? Because you don't look okay, or you're not -- 

Lucas Akai  13:02 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  13:02 

acting like yourself, or, you know, the compromise, the things you begin to compromise in life are noticed. I mean, I worked quite a lot. Yet, I never really had enough, I was paycheck to paycheck, never had money. And, you know, that was that was noticed by people around me that wondered where all the money was going. 

Lucas Akai  13:26 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  13:26 

For sure. So maybe it's almost just so incremental, the way it crept in that it, it couldn't be said that I consciously needed to make, make a decision about hiding this. But there were certainly moments in time where I realised 'Oh, I've exposed myself here and I don't like the reaction I'm getting from people.' I mean, even in opening myself up to, like, the family doctor and stuff. That you just feel that there's a judgement there, right? 

Daniel Snyder  14:16 

So one of the things however, that was perhaps, I don't know, is this in my favour? It was just the nature of the life I lived. I had access to resources and the ability to maybe cover up this thing a little better than other people would. Or and so maybe that dragged it out longer,  really, right? Maybe. Maybe if I didn't have all those [access to] resources, it wouldn't have gone on so long. [indiscernible...] 

Lucas Akai  14:49 

Right, right. 

Daniel Snyder  14:52 

But yeah, I mean, I could still prioritise enough to get clothes to look respectable or to make sure I paid my car insurance and had my vehicle. I remember, you know,  I can make it sound better than it was. So I don't need to do that. But like -- 

Lucas Akai  15:09 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  15:09 

I did, like sell almost all, all my belongings in order to have drugs at one point in time. And I mean, I was contemplating even selling my car and whatnot, but, you know, I always I was like, 'Oh, well, you know, I better hang on to the TV because, you know, people need to watch TV.' So, you know, there was always enough resources that I was able to, like, hang on to a few things --  

Daniel Snyder  15:37 

where keep it together, I always maintained employment, which is really quite shocking looking back. But it's maybe a gift, like maybe just part of my personality is that even in my most intoxicated states, I tended to be able to not capture people's attention.  

Lucas Akai  15:37 

right -- 

Lucas Akai  16:01 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  16:01 

You know, in a negative way. I like, I could fly under the radar. And, I mean, I remember multiple interactions, of course, over the years with police and I was always the one who could de-escalate the situation. And, you know, have a rational conversation, rather than, you know, if we watch Cops or something like that, how --  

Lucas Akai  16:21 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  16:21 

they always, like, portrayed that, you know, an intoxicated person just makes things worse all the time. You know, so I would be able to, even to be honest, like, talk my way out, perhaps [of] what would have been a worse outcome? Because I'm articulate and I can communicate and I had at least some some awareness that 'oh, you need to respect this authority figure --'  

Lucas Akai  16:46 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  16:47 

'regardless of how you might feel about the situation,' right? So. So those things, you know, afforded me that privilege a little bit, but I remember one time, really down and out, like, to get. Yeah, I was counting pennies. So we don't even have pennies anymore.  

Lucas Akai  17:08 

Not anymore, no.  

Daniel Snyder  17:09 

This is back in the day. But yeah, I was counting pennies to be able to score, like I, and so you know, I put them in those sleeves. I think a sleeve is 50, 50 penny, or is it 20 for penny, or is it $1? But yeah, and then, you know, you stack them up. And eventually, I'd have enough, I go down to the gas station. And I remember very clearly one moment just feeling, like, really embarrassed, like a real shame about, you know, I've got penny, I've been scouring pennies and taking them out of couches and people's, like, you know, piggy banks and things like that. And so obviously, I didn't feel good about myself when I walked into this gas station.  

Daniel Snyder  18:02 

I remember I said to the cashier that, something along the lines like, 'Oh, those stupid druggies are paying me in pennies. Can you change this for me?' Which was a total, like, I mean, while it is what it is, it's like, it's not me, it's, it's this split personality, right? Like I can represent myself. So I was like, pretending I was the dealer and someone had given me all these pennies. And um, that's just the level of like, shame and embarrassment to some random cashier who I don't, I've never interacted with in my life, and they haven't even treated me in a negative way. 

Daniel Snyder  18:45 

I'm just, got, I'm just being, protecting myself from the get, right away, right> So how am I going to be perceived? And so that, for that reason, it was important to typically dress -- 

Lucas Akai  18:59 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  19:00 

in a way that I wouldn't look...In the way that we stereotypically judge people who...  

Lucas Akai  19:06 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  19:07 

Look a certain way, right? Just, it is what it is. Yeah, I mean, I remember because of that, walking into a gas station asking if, to use the washroom and it's no problem. They just, you know, whereas other people look a certain way, and they're like, 'No, get out, customers only.' Right?  

Lucas Akai  19:28 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  19:28 

And that sort of thing, so um. I can't remember if last week I, did I, I think I did mention that guy who talked about the junkie, across the street?  

Lucas Akai  19:39 

I believe so, yeah.  

Daniel Snyder  19:40 

Yeah. And I mean, just that was a moment in time where I really realised this is the natural way people view drug use. 

Lucas Akai  19:48 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  19:49 

And but not only drug use, right? It really is. It's the heroin. I mean, there's that escalating --  

Lucas Akai  19:56 

yes -- 

Daniel Snyder  19:56 

 scale of judgement that we have on people it seems that have, like, it's really hard for people to believe that someone could use heroin recreationally, and be responsible and like -- 

Daniel Snyder  20:07 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  20:08 

be functional in life. Equally as hard to maybe believe that about crack, crystal meth, like those three drugs seem seem to not really have a valid recreational use.  

Daniel Snyder  20:19 

Exactly.  

Daniel Snyder  20:20 

Even though I think even that's probably not true. Dr. Carl Hart, a neuroscientist in the States, wrote a book called drug use for grownups and he actually talks about his own personal recreational, heroin use that he just does on random occasions, and he talks about it in very glowing language, quite an interesting book. And yet, he's a tenured professor -- 

Daniel Snyder  20:48 

and neuroscientist, very intelligent guy, like, you know, clearly. World-sought-after public speaker, and well-published. And, you know, he's breaking this paradigm by saying, 'Hey, I use heroin for fun sometimes,' which I don't think we've created a culture that gives space for that, even to be a possibility because we've truly demonised these drugs. And most drugs have been demonised. So even cannabis, for the longest of times, right? I have a fascination with like, drug war propaganda and messaging from the 50s and the 60s. You know, I mean, at the essential messaging around cannabis, was it your, if you smoke a joint, you will murder your parents with an axe?  

Lucas Akai  20:48 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  21:16 

Most likely, and that was how we wanted people to think about it. To prevent them from doing it, and now we find oh, what's mostly not, mostly people have positive benefits, and there's actually quite a bit of medical benefit and all these things. So, you know, I, it makes me wonder how much, how little truth have we really --  

Lucas Akai  22:04 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  22:04 

began to understand about drugs?  

Lucas Akai  22:06 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  22:10 

More on the self-stigma piece. You know, it's, it's, it stayed with me even into recovery and I think that that's an important thing to think about too.  

Lucas Akai  22:24 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  22:27 

There was a time, you know, I mean, my recovery journey was a lot of up and down, stays in various treatment centres and... over the years, and I remember one of those times, that I just, I guess, I was really discouraged by the fact that people who knew me knew me as a person who just always went up and down. Like, there was no getting over this. It's kind of like, 'oh, is Daniel back?' you know, 'Oh, how's Daniel doing?' kind of thing. And, and so I arrived at this time, where I was, I was just really sick of that. And I kind of felt like I needed to recreate my social group, like with people who didn't know the old Daniel --  

Lucas Akai  23:17 

Right -- 

Daniel Snyder  23:18 

and you know, and so my, throughout my life, I've gone to church on and off. And so I had rejoined a church where really, no one knew me at all, like, no one knew the old Daniel and I was sober. I was in a sober phase recently, recently out of a treatment place. And so what was really, you know, that was what was, I thought I needed. And so I started to interact. But I never opened up about the past with people. The idea for me was, I just want to leave this behind.  

Lucas Akai  23:53 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  23:53 

That was what I told myself, I just want to leave this behind and start fresh. I don't know that that was truly like, the real reason in my heart, obviously, I think I still had a couple of things in there. One was just a shame of the past. But but two was a fear that maybe it wasn't really going to last --  

Lucas Akai  24:16 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  24:16 

and it was going to creep up on me again. And so...Inevitably, well, not inevitably, but at that, I did have a relapse, and everyone in that new social group, you know -- 

Lucas Akai  24:34 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  24:35 

found out what, who -- 

Lucas Akai  24:36 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  24:36 

where it is, who I really was, or what I had really been struggling with over those years. And, you know, so then I did open up and I was vulnerable about it, but I became aware over some time that like, that wasn't the best. That wasn't the right idea, like the error was in hiding. And I think it was kind of the Overdose Crisis. And, you know, when that public health emergency was declared that I realised like, yeah, you need to truly own it. Because you actually can't help anyone, or. And you'll never really be able to hide this. So why not just own it? And that was it, that was an important decision. And I think that was where the state of mind really broke. And, you know, that was probably actually I just realised this, for me this connection, but that was probably when Brene Brown got really popular with her vulnerability stuff. That must be almost six or seven or eight years ago, really.  

Lucas Akai  25:39 

Yeah.  

Daniel Snyder  25:40 

And so yeah, she was talking about vulnerability being actually a very strengthening, powerful thing. And that that's not really part of our culture at all, on any level, mostly, particularly with men, we have this tendency not to be vulnerable about our emotional struggles. And maybe that is, correlates with why four out of five overdose deaths are men, and a large percentage in the trades, trade work. So very interesting. But by owning my story, for me, it broke the vast majority of the stigma. Certainly, that doesn't mean I go, well, like when I go public speaking, I tell every part of the story.  

Lucas Akai  26:31 

Right, right.  

Daniel Snyder  26:33 

There are some things that are like, you know, hard to digest and even process. Now, I don't want to, I wouldn't want to put it out to the world that were part of that journey, right? But, you know, the more you know, that's always I guess, something you navigate is, is how helpful would this information be for others? And how much is important that, you know, well, you have some privacy -- 

Lucas Akai  27:00 

absolutely -- 

Daniel Snyder  27:00 

as when your story goes public? I mean, it's public, if you Google my name, well, thankfully, there's a super famous Daniel Snyder who comes up because he owns an NFL team. That'll do it. Yeah. But I mean, if you find my name, you know, it doesn't take much to find my story, right?  

Lucas Akai  27:20 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  27:20 

Like it's out there, and so I don't really have a choice.  

Lucas Akai  27:24 

You know, it's like, that saying, a glass house, almost.  

Daniel Snyder  27:28 

Yeah. 

Lucas Akai  27:28 

It's out there now.  

Daniel Snyder  27:30 

Yeah.  

Lucas Akai  27:31 

But with it being out there, and with your story of sobriety now. Now being public, have you found that there's still like a lingering stigma with like, 'oh, you know, he was once a user?' Or how has that changed between, you know, being user to now where? 

Daniel Snyder  27:47 

I think? Well, I mean, I think that the area that that was the most challenging was in personal, like relationships, people I'm the closest to, because those are the relationships where trust was impacted.  

Lucas Akai  28:02 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  28:03 

And so when you're, you know, when you're with the general public, or you're telling your story, to acquaintances, and whatnot, generally, like, you know, they accepted it without any, there's no second thought, 'Oh, well, is he, is he going to fall back into this?' and that sort of thing. Whereas when you're navigate that with someone you're in a close personal relationship with, and they've gone through the ups and downs over the years with you. Certainly, they have their own pain, trauma, and healing and recovery journey that they're on, and that the relationship is also on. And so, you know, those were the ones that were the toughest, and when I facilitated recovery groups, and we've sat with and sat with people who talked about where that trust in the relationships with the people closest to them is always the hardest thing to reconcile. And the people.  

Daniel Snyder  29:03 

You're normally trusting yourself and feeling great about life, like long before they are, right? So, you know, often I would find myself like trying to convince people that I'm serious. And, you know, that gets really like when you said 'I'm serious this time' and you've said -- 

Lucas Akai  29:26 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  29:26 

 'I'm serious this time,' 53 times over 10 years, they're like, 'oh, yeah, okay, sure, sure.'  

Lucas Akai  29:32 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  29:32 

You know, so I mean, I guess that's one of those things where, I mean, you got, nothing but time is going to do the trick, right? So. For the most part, yeah, I don't experience stigma at all. Even though I kind of and I wonder if that's because it just doesn't bother me, so I don't notice it.  

Lucas Akai  30:04 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  30:04 

Or if it's not happening around me, and directed towards me, because enough time has elapsed or, you know, because of the way I carry myself and that sort of thing. Hard to say.  

Lucas Akai  30:17 

Right, right. And now you mentioned varying social groups, and you mentioned that you would, you know, kind of move between social groups when you were using. So speaking of perhaps, the churches, as you were able to at least maintain a job while you're using, for the churches, where people would find out eventually that, you know, you had used or were using, did you? Did the shift in, was there a shift in, like, the respect that they gave you or the way they viewed you as a person? Or did it remain relatively steady? How did the stigma or the respect or lack thereof kind of fluctuate with that? 

Daniel Snyder  30:58 

Well, yeah, that's a great question. You know, for the most, for the vast majority of people in interactions, I would say it was, there was no change in the, in the care, interest, compassion concern towards me. It was genuine and people wanted the best for me. 

Lucas Akai  31:22 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  31:25 

The where there was problems was in the counsel and the advice that was given, and um, and that was just, those things were not, for the most part, helpful, from the vast majority of people. Both in the church sphere, there's the religious advice that I was getting, which actually, for a lot of years, especially the early years was the majority of the advice -- 

Lucas Akai  31:51 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  31:52 

that I got. It was just not, and not, I want to qualify that by saying like, not that it was necessarily bad advice, per se. It was bad advice for me. And I think this is the error that we often make with addiction, is we just reduce it because it's complicated.  

Lucas Akai  32:13 

Yep. 

Daniel Snyder  32:16 

We don't really understand it, we don't understand always what's driving it, we don't understand or know well, the person in front of us who's struggling with it. And so, you know, we want to help, but untangling that and the nuance of what's best for each person. I mean, even the person with the addiction doesn't know yet what's best for them. They haven't even properly been presented, the list of options that might even exist, and how would you even present that to a person? I don't know. The first time a person identifies that they have a substance use disorder, would you sit down and go, 'Okay, well, we could send you to an Ayahuasca retreat in Costa Rica, or --' 

Daniel Snyder  33:00 

'we could send you to an abstinence place for one year, where you study the Bible only, which is it?' you know, and then there's a lot in between, right? And so despite the best of intentions, and I mean, I think that's also really important. Really great intentions, like a lot of the time, but generally, kind of coming from the top, like a down at you --  

Lucas Akai  33:00 

right -- 

Lucas Akai  33:05 

yeah -- 

Daniel Snyder  33:20 

a little bit, angle. And so maybe that's where the stigma is, it is not, it's not in the words. And I think a lot of times, that's how we experience it. In the, or talk about it, because the words are the easiest, you know, call it, you crackhead junkie, druggie.  

Lucas Akai  33:50 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  33:51 

Obviously, 'oh, would you cut that out?' And we remove stigma because those words are negative, pejorative. That's the easy part. Yeah, when you set yourself up above a person because their problem is beneath you, and that's communicated through body language, or through tone, or through the way you sit together, or all sorts of other you know, variables, some of which are so slight and nuanced that, you know, and all, not to forget, very important, that the person with the addiction generally speaking is so on high alert with their shame and negative self talk and what they believe about themselves that inadvertently or maybe just by the very nature, they're going to take what you said with the best of intentions and like, it's like a spirit of the heart because, so sometimes I wonder if we if, if the -- is the stigma there or am I self-stigmatising again because I don't -- 

Lucas Akai  34:56 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  34:57 

like myself at all? That's a hard one to take apart, right?  

Lucas Akai  35:02 

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so during this period of time, when you were using and you were flipping between these different social circles, did, was there ever a period where you were not able to present yourself in like, the way that would be, you know, like in the public, you wouldn't notice necessarily? And not, and not, of course, like when you were in like, the lowest of lows, but just like, in your average, you know, periods of use? Or was it always pretty steady in that regard?  

Daniel Snyder  35:40 

I think, well, the only times that people would notice things were off would be when I was running, when I was out of drugs. So when I would have a lapse or relapse, and I would start using, using heroin, I would use, say, six to eight times a day, every few hours, every day. So I would be wired to very quickly within three or four days, and that means that eight hours elapsed without it I'm going into withdrawal, right? And, inevitably, there'd be moments in time where you can't, you can't get it, you know, a dealer gets busted or someone's late or things like that happen, circumstances. And so you know, you go into a bit of withdrawal, or money hasn't come through, and you've got a day and a day to wait or something like that. So those were fairly regular and that's when I go into withdrawal.  

Daniel Snyder  36:49 

You know, the first 24 hours? I can hang, you can hang on. I could hang on. But I wasn't looking good, right? The sweating starts --  

Lucas Akai  36:59 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  37:00 

You start. So that's when people are like 'what's going on with you? You seem off.' And so that was, that was the only times that to come to memory.  

Lucas Akai  37:10 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  37:10 

But yeah, for the most part because of the nature of opioids, I think, if you maintain your dose, you know, people can lead a fairly functional life. And, I mean, this is why opioids have been used for, for extreme pain in valid situations for a very long time. And many people who have extreme pain and are taking opioids, large, high dose opioids, on a daily basis, they are fine with their day to day life. They also don't have to spend any time seeking drugs or saving for drugs or, and they don't generally attach a concept of addiction to their behaviour. They may attach the concept of dependence, which is correct. And that's something that we also don't get right in our society is that there is a difference between dependence and addiction. And so... How did we land there?  

Lucas Akai  38:21 

Well, at the same time, I think many people will confuse the two as one of the same or even like, if you have one, you have the other just by default. So maybe with your own experience, could you like, explain further, go into further detail on kind of like the addiction side of things and the dependent side of things, and how that counterbalances?  

Daniel Snyder  38:43 

Well, here's an easy way to think about it is a baby can't be born addicted. But we use that language. You see, we see, you know, the mother is mother as a heroin user, has the baby, so the baby is, goes into withdrawal, right? Immediately when they're born. And then the language that's been used for for many years is, you know, these babies are born addicted. Well, addiction requires you to engage in a behaviour that's causing problems in your life, and then become aware of those problems and continue to engage in that behaviour. But I haven't yet met a baby who can walk out of the hospital and buy heroin to curb their so-called addiction. So what the baby is born with is a dependence on heroin, because they are not compulsively doing anything to destroy their life or to engage in behaviours that create consequences. They're not doing anything at all.  

Daniel Snyder  39:43 

They're just withdrawing through no fault of their own whatsoever. So I mean, that's, that's the easiest way to think of dependence and addiction. And when, when I think of addiction in my life, If I'd like to think of it in a few different ways, I think of it as very disordered use, I think of it a lot as a behaviour I learned so, or, that in a lot of ways, it was highly effective and useful. And it, because it had positive benefits, I learned how to use those to my advantage, and that, those positive benefits reinforced the behaviour, classic conditioning, and I learned that what worked for me, and heroin was very, very effective at doing a lot of things that helped settle my emotions and personality in ways and, and also, like a lot of people find alcohol, very helpful socially.  

Lucas Akai  39:43 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  40:53 

Heroin was very helpful socially, for me. I felt that gave me, in optimal dosing. This is the problem with the street supply, is you can't optimally dose, you sometimes take too much. And sometimes take, don't know the strength of what you have. 

Lucas Akai  41:09 

 Right.  

Daniel Snyder  41:09 

But yeah, so, remind me again, where we're going with this. Lucas?  

Lucas Akai  41:18 

Yeah so. So maybe after, like, the explanation of addiction dependence, is when you are in those social circles again, staying on top of respect, and, and then recognition of this issue. Did you find that like they were always coming from one side or the other? I mean, obviously, the stigma with the media is it's addiction. And it's, you know, this menace, this great beast. But when approached was, was there any concern given to the dependence factor? Or was that something again, that was just unknown at the time, maybe, or not understood?  

Daniel Snyder  41:51 

Yeah, not understood, probably not an awareness of how to separate these two issues. And not, also maybe minimising the dependence part, like, because really, truly, you can get over that fairly rapidly and that the addiction and the things that underlie, the root issues really are the things you're going to have to spend a lot more time figuring out, right? And obviously, I mean, I lived that I started and stopped the dependence, many times, but had the addiction, core issues, the root issues of the addiction didn't resolve, then they wouldn't have framed, the pattern wouldn't continued, right? But it was never talked about in those terms, really, it was, they were one and the same. So yeah, it was not something that, you know, I think last week, too, I talked about the fact that on the independent side of the detox side of things, I didn't really ever get the support that I needed.  

Lucas Akai  43:00 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  43:00 

And maybe that again, is because, well, that part was minimised, like well, you're, there certainly was, not as much from health professionals, in this area. But from people I was close to, there was an element of 'well, you did this to yourself, so you probably should suffer' -- 

Lucas Akai  43:23 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  43:24 

'in the detox phase,' right? Like, 'making it comfortable for you. That doesn't sound right. No, I think you should be in, be in pain.' I may have even had some people say that to me, right?  

Lucas Akai  43:35 

It's just like some, it shouldn't be easy, necessarily.  

Daniel Snyder  43:38 

It shouldn't be easy. And now, I mean, nothing ever is easy in life. But you know, say taking a bit of anxiety medication to help minimise anxiety, so you don't feel like you're gonna run out of a detox centre and go, like, rob a store to buy heroin. Are we make it easier with like, or what?  

Lucas Akai  43:57 

Right. And so now with your work as a peer, and having been, you know, sober in what media would consider, you know, standard terms, do you find that the respect and the treatment you receive as a peer is different, as oftentimes, peers are actively using themselves. So you as an unusual who has in traditional media terms beaten, beaten this issue, beaten your own demons? Is that, is there a different type of respect and treatment there? Or even like, maybe you're not the same as these people? As -- 

Daniel Snyder  44:30 

yeah -- 

Lucas Akai  44:31 

 other peers and users? 

Daniel Snyder  44:33 

So that's a really good one because this is a very relevant topic to me and to clarify one thing. So yeah, post the last time I had what I term as disordered opioid crisis in my life. I had a number of years of abstinence and total sobriety. And then now, recently, in the last several years, I've reincorporated a couple of substances. Both psychedelics in a therapeutic sense, very occasional, a few times a year, two, three, and then also cannabis use, I've brought in. But I still don't, have decided not to reincorporate alcohol into my life or other drugs. So, you know, thinking of that and always navigating it, but for that reason, it would be incorrect to say that I'm sober -- 

Lucas Akai  45:21 

right, fair enough --  

Daniel Snyder  45:22 

in that phase and I'm fairly, I mean, I'm open about it, but it's not, generally doesn't get discussed or talked about, in those, people ask sometimes, and that sort of thing. But the peer issue is a challenge for me, because aren't we all peers?  

Lucas Akai  45:48 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  45:48 

Kind of, that's what I sort of think about this, right? And the way it's been done, and, you know, I really understand, obviously, the value, I wouldn't be here otherwise, if I didn't understand the value of talking to people with lived experience. And I also like, I'm acutely aware that my experience is my experience. I don't like try -- 

Lucas Akai  46:06 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  46:06 

and export it out onto the world and say, well, you should all follow my advice for how to deal with addiction. My story is the story. That's the funny thing about this is every story is so unique. Like, are we? I guess what we're doing is we're building a collective intelligence, about people's experiences with addiction. And then we're picking out common denominators, and themes and ideas that have worked and the things that themes and ideas that have not worked. And so yeah, where do I go from there with the peers? Well, I, I want to avoid tokenizing people. And I think that that's really hard to do when you label a group, right? Because then you have, like, so. And then we have standards for compensating and paying people who contribute in the peer capacity within the work that I do. We, we provide stipends, and honorariums for peers when they interact with us, or when they contribute to meetings or do other various things.  

Daniel Snyder  46:08 

And then other people participate as community members or volunteers, they don't receive these funds. It's always difficult to navigate. And then a really challenging part with this is, again, back to the stereotyping and the way, the way people look, and even the most enlightened among us, I've been in rooms where, you know, folks look around, and they say, 'Hey, there's no peers here.' I say, 'oh, sorry, I dressed a little too nicely today.' Like, and that's very problematic.  

Lucas Akai  47:29 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  48:01 

That, you know, like, we have [an] expectation for appear to have a certain intellectual ability, perhaps, or to dress a certain way or that they are, I don't know. But it's, I don't know how you dig it all apart. In our Community Action Team, the committee that we have, we have about six or seven peers, a core group of six or seven peers that sit on the committee. So these are individuals who have been, they've identified themselves as peers, and they've essentially applied to be on the committee. 

Lucas Akai  48:36 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  48:37 

And so, and those individuals have a range of like, I think one of them might even be currently homeless. A few of them are in supportive housing, a couple of them take, live on their own, they are or are not at any given point in time in active addiction or active use, and it's not something anyone tracks or pays attention to. Because it's just lived experience. And so, you know, the only time drug use in that context interferes with any of the work we do is if someone is actually intoxicated at a meeting or something, generally speaking, the end result of that is that they fall asleep. So at least they're not disturbing anybody, and it's not generally a major problem. We just want to encourage them to be awake and participate. 

Lucas Akai  49:31 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  49:32 

But, you know, again, breaks the stereotype of how you think intoxicated people would act at a...at a meeting, right?  

Daniel Snyder  49:40 

Absolutely. Now, have you found with these, the Community Action Team, some of these committees that you have, that there's like a top down pressure or immediate pressure when they go to interact with you that they want people that look, you know, a certain way that have that stereotypical look, or has it been generally pretty open in that regard? 

Daniel Snyder  50:04 

I think it's very open. I think the CATs are very progressive. Most of the ideas held by the CATs are are still not within the general public window. 

Daniel Snyder  50:15 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  50:17 

You know, for the most part, like our CAT here in Langley is all for safe supply and, you know, actually even going beyond decriminalisation, most people in our community would be in favour of regulation and legalisation and that sort of thing. So I think for us maybe more as advocate types, the breaking of the stereotype involves getting the media to stop always focusing on the downtown East End.  

Lucas Akai  50:49 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  50:50 

And, you know, yet, I do see. Like, I am aware of another problem that as we shift the stereotype, some people perceive that this is a movement for, you know... well to do white people, right, because they're the ones that generally have, they're caps. This is where the attention is being captured.  

Lucas Akai  51:23 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  51:23 

And, you know, I'm very fond of, and work with, and I think it's the greatest organisation Moms Stop the Harm, which is a national organisation here in Canada, mostly moms, but family members of ones who have lost their children to overdose. And they've turned, they're an advocacy organisation. And they're doing amazing work. And yet, when you look at, say, the umbrella of the people involved, and then you look at the graphics of all the lost children that are part of these moms and families, it's all white people, 95%. Right? And so that raises the question like, why is this voice being projected? Because certainly, it's not. That's not the statistical. That's not what the statistics show -- 

Daniel Snyder  52:21 

statistics show Indigenous people disproportionately affected, et cetera, et cetera. So you know, in, in on the ground literature, and the interactions we have, it's very diverse, very inclusive, and people from all walks of life and all races and ethnicities are together working on this issue. But, you know, somehow, as it percolates up to the media, like it, this is how it appears, sometimes to people. And I just wonder how we can be cautious of that, right? Because it's, if it gives the impression that these are the privileged ones who might actually recover, or the we had hope for these white people who are dead. But when, you know, there's so many wrong messages that people can pull out of that and that aren't the heart of any of these people, that aren't the intention. So it's sad that we have to be conscious of that and aware of that in this day and age, but I guess it's also important, sorry, [tangents]. 

Lucas Akai  52:21 

right -- 

Lucas Akai  53:26 

And so with the development of these new stereotypes, and breaking the old stereotypes... as you said, have you found that when you do speaking events yourself, that when you do these speaking events, people are often surprised that, of the person that you're putting forward? Like, were they expecting one thing getting another? Or?  

Daniel Snyder  53:54 

I have definitely had people say things to me, like, 'I can't imagine that you were ever this or that'. I think that that is really important. Because there is a another stereotype around addiction that generally it's forever. I know that that's one of the ideas that I had to fight against in my recovery journey. I remember, really early on maybe the first treatment centre I ever went to, I believe they had a requirement of attending one or two NA meetings a week. And that was where I first heard this idea of, you know, once an addict, always an addict. I'm a very logic. Like, I take things literally, I think logically through things so I'm like, okay, so they're saying that, you know, you're always going to have this problem forever. And I was like, that's that's really hopeless way to think about this because I was only 20 or 21 at the time.  

Lucas Akai  54:59 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  55:00 

I was like, so that, they're telling me that 'now you've got something that you're going to be dealing with for the rest of your life.' And so I actually kind of consciously, like, rejected that, like, 'No, I'm not going to' not, but it was always a battle. Because you know, constantly, you would have people telling you that. And then if you inevitably said something along the lines of like, 'No, I think I can overcome this,' like, 'and it's not going to define me for the rest of my days,' they would say you're naive, or you're in denial, or you're not, you know, you're not giving enough credit to the insidious disease -- 

Daniel Snyder  55:36 

of addiction and the way it's always waiting to get you. But for me, that was because I wasn't going to walk around with that label forever. And so, you know, speaking publicly, being in front of people, portraying myself as a competent, intelligent person who, is important, because it lets people know a couple things. One: pretty sure drugs didn't destroy my brain. Yay! So, so we know that, you know, that, that a lot of drug misuse and severe addiction doesn't necessarily mean you get stupid. That's great. So people see that, right. You know, I don't even,  I don't talk about that. I don't say that. I think they just intuit that, right? Like that. That's 'Oh, wow, this is amazing, like recovery is possible.' And that's a really important and actually, that's, that's more backed up by research than the other narrative. The, once an addict always an addict, it's not actually even backed up by research.  

Lucas Akai  55:36 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  56:44 

There's good evidence that shows that a lot of people have addictions, and experienced addictions in their lifetime, including substance addictions, and they just get over it. They literally just they don't even go to the treatment centres -- 

Lucas Akai  56:57 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  56:57 

and do alright. They don't have the same journey I did. It doesn't necessarily last 15 years. But I know when I've, I've often been in a room and I'll ask and you know, I'll get someone who'll open up from time to time, and they'll talk about how dysfunctional their alcohol use was in their early 20s. But they just grew out of it.  

Lucas Akai  57:14 

Right. Right.  

Daniel Snyder  57:15 

Right? So yeah, for me, I think it's important that we offer that hope, especially when we're talking a lot to loved ones who have their, their son or daughter or whoever, is currently in an addiction, that can feel very hopeless. And you want to give them hope, right? They need to be given hope. And a lot of times the counsel and advice that my loved ones were given, didn't have much hope in it, didn't have much compassion in it, didn't have much love in it. It was more directive, more or maybe more clinical, or more ideological, right?  

Lucas Akai  58:00 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  58:01 

And so yeah, we, you know, I'll probably say this a million times over the next few weeks. But yeah, we got to get away from treating drugs and addiction through an ideological lens.  

Lucas Akai  58:15 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  58:15 

We must start being more pragmatic, evidence based, and just factual about how we talk about these things, and then how we, how we treat them. Now, does that mean that religious slash spiritual treatment centres or 12 step treatment centres should go away? No. I mean, obviously, I think that there's going to be plenty of people that want to choose those pathways. But again, somehow we need to find a way to incorporate into that, like, evidence based. For instance, if you run a publicly funded facility, maybe even private, I mean, really, there should be government standards for treatment. And if you want to have your ideology in there, and your religion in there as a part of it, that's fine. But you also have to have these evidence based principles guiding your core programming. And really, we don't have standards like that in, in Canada, for treatment providers.  

Daniel Snyder  59:15 

I mean, there's some basic ones. I mean, I'm not sure that even the government of Canada is up to date on, like, addiction research is moving so fast and we've learned so much in the last five years, 10 years. But if you go to a treatment centre, I bet you their curriculum is 25 years old -- 

Lucas Akai  59:35 

 or older  

Daniel Snyder  59:37 

or older, so it's time to update. 

Lucas Akai  59:42 

So just to be mindful of time. I have one more question maybe for today. When you look at the development of this combatting the ideologies that, you know, really dominate the sphere of the Opioid Crisis and when we consider the, the past six or so years since the announcement of that Opioid Crisis, have you seen that message? And that, that that push away from the ideology really start taking a hold? Or is it still really just an infancy type, type viewpoint?  

Daniel Snyder  1:00:20 

Um. Yeah, that's a good question as well, I would say, in terms of -- well, we'd have to take a look at different sectors of society, because I think it's, it's gotten better and improved probably across the board. When I look at the health authorities, I'll look at Fraser Health, for instance, where I -- 

Lucas Akai  1:00:38 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  1:00:38 

I live, they're incredibly progressive and up to date with their evidence based approach and understanding of what's going on here and the way that [they're] addressing it.  

Lucas Akai  1:00:50 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  1:00:50 

So I think that they're, they're doing as much as they can, for the most part. Certainly, I could find areas to criticise, and there's more that they could be doing. But I also know that in terms of really addressing this crisis, it's, it's at the federal level, and the feds are probably handcuffed because of classic political reasoning, which is that the solution to this crisis is so far out of the Overton Window with the general public --  

Lucas Akai  1:01:21 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  1:01:21 

that it would be political suicide to present that on any platform. You will not win any election on a drug legalisation platform -- 

Lucas Akai  1:01:30 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  1:01:31 

 in Canada. So it's, I mean, simply that's what it is, like, frustratingly enough, but I would say I'm positively. I'm pleased with the way that the churches have responded to this issue and have educated themselves, for the most part, in the way I've experienced or witnessed it. And, and I think most social groups, business groups, unions that I've interacted with have been willing to learn. I think it's trending upwards in society as far as stigma is concerned, but I am acutely aware that it's a generational problem.  

Lucas Akai  1:02:17 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  1:02:17 

So, you know, although some of the most enlightened and least stigmatising talks I've done have been in with seniors. So that might surprise some people and I'm pleased to say that, that like, and I remember the last time I chatted with a bunch of seniors, I presented, two of them came up to me and, and were very apologetic for how judgmental they'd been in their lifetime. Which was very, very neat to hear, because it's like they're willing to learn, right?  

Lucas Akai  1:02:52 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  1:02:52 

I think sometimes we, we, us younger ones have a stereotype that older folks are not willing to learn. So that was nice to see.  

Lucas Akai  1:03:01 

Right. Well, Daniel, we've hit 3:30. Thank you very much again -- 

Daniel Snyder  1:03:06 

alright --  

Lucas Akai  1:03:06 

for your time. 

Caitlin Burritt  1:03:07 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.