Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC. 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Lucas Akai and Esther Chueng interview Daniel Snyder, a peer harm reduction worker in Langley, BC, for the first time. Daniel introduces himself, describes his lived experience with substance use, his journey to becoming a peer and emphasizes the importance of people who use drugs sharing their stories.  

Lucas Akai  01:57 

Esther, if you want to take it from here?  

Esther Cheung  02:00 

Sure, well, I guess. How are you? 

Daniel Snyder  02:05 

Ah, yeah, I'm good. I'm doing good. Life is well. Good.  

Esther Cheung  02:10 

Great. Do you have any questions for us specifically who we are or any more questions about the projects?  

Daniel Snyder  02:17 

I guess the? Yeah, no. I mean, I asked Lucas a few questions. But maybe more on a personal level, I'm just kind of curious as to what draws you as individuals into, into being, caring about this kind of thing, caring about this type of work?  

Esther Cheung  02:31 

Sure.  

Daniel Snyder  02:32 

But other than that, I'll leave it in your court, you can ask the questions.  

Esther Cheung  02:34 

Okay. Well, I guess to start, I lived in Vancouver for the past three years, and I've lived very close to the Downtown Eastside and just seeing it all. And so it's, it's very close. So I would like to get to know more.  And if I'm not on the ground, see how I can change the storytelling around it, which is what my background is, I'm an animator, filmmaker, and I'm doing journalism right now. And there's a lot of bad journalism out there. So that's kind of why. For me.  

Daniel Snyder  03:04 

Daniel Snyder  03:04 

Daniel Snyder  03:05 

Yeah, that's really meaningful to me for sure. Because certainly the narrative around substance use addiction overdose has not been accurate. Let's just leave it at that. There's a lot of misinformation, myth, stories, sensationalizing things. Yeah, that's bothersome. So hearing real stories is important. So thank you. Yeah. 

Esther Cheung  03:28 

Lucas, do you want to say? 

Lucas Akai  03:29 

Yeah. So for myself. And this would have been many years ago now. A very close family friend of my family and myself, as well, a mentor to some extent, volunteered her time and ran to some extent something called night shifts. Night St. ministries in Surrey.  

Daniel Snyder  03:48 

Yeah, night shifts. I know it.  

Lucas Akai  03:51 

Exactly. Yeah. And so she was very. She's wonderful woman. And she, she ran one of the Surrey locations. And so when I was in high school, actually, for one of the projects that you do, you know, you do volunteer work, or you do not like work placement. But that type of idea. I actually did an interview project with her because of her work. And she's unfortunately passed away now. But yeah, so it's, it's close to home for sure. And so that's kind of that's the big draw for me.   

Daniel Snyder  04:23 

That's cool that that was inspiring. Great. 

Esther Cheung  04:25 

Well, I guess what about you, where are you based? What do you do? 

Daniel Snyder  04:29 

Daniel Snyder  04:30 

So yeah, I'm in Langley. And I do a lot of a bunch of different things. Right now. My primary work is in trades and contracting. So I'm a painting residential painter, self employed. And most of the time, I spend 25 to 35 hours a week doing that. And then about six years ago, five, six years ago, I got more involved in what Well, I guess we have time, right? Should I make it into a more of a longer story?  

Esther Cheung  05:03 

Yeah, we got time. 

Lucas Akai  05:06 

Absolutely. This whole period is just the introductory get to know you. Yeah, lay the foundation.  

Esther Cheung  05:12 

Tell your life story. 

Daniel Snyder  05:18 

So, Langley has a Community Action Team, as do many communities throughout the province that were set up about five years ago, in response to the overdose crisis, and, and really designed to be grassroots community level responses that the Langley one is primarily focused on educating the community, helping people understand the crisis, providing Naloxone training, and then quite a bit of focus on doing what we can in terms of stigma reduction. So a lot of that is sharing stories, and humanizing. The individuals that have struggles with substance use or or maybe not even struggles with substance use, they just use drugs, and they have fine lines as well. And yet they feel that they need to hide that right because society doesn't accept them if they if they are opened. about their struggle. So I have a significant past history with substance use and addiction. You know, more or less, I spent 15 years addicted to heroin up and down kind of the recovery journey started. In my early 20s, at least, that's when I realized I was dealing with a problem. And, and then it was a long, you know, up and down, back and forth journey  

Daniel Snyder  06:41 

And problematic substance use into recovery and then arriving where I am now, where about five or six years ago, I realised, "hey, I have a story that I should probably share and be more open with." And I got connected to this community action team.  And since then, you know, it's been opportunity after opportunity to engage with the community, share my story, and maybe find ways to make a difference. For instance, just in this last week, I've been involved with a group, just volunteers and people in the community that want to provide overdose prevention services here in Langley. Langley is one of the many, one of the cities that doesn't have an OBS site, like there's no witness safe consumption, or overdose prevention at all in Langley, which is frustrating, shocking and unfortunate. So there's a group of people that want to make that happen. And I get to, you know, join with them, among other things. So yeah, there's a, so I do that part time, and I do the painting, part time. And then and then I involve myself in whatever capacity I can in projects and things like this. So there's a snapshot now we could probably dig in deeper, I don't know where you want to go next.  

Esther Cheung  07:58 

Well, I'd like to hear more about the work you do in the community.  

Daniel Snyder  08:03 

Sure, yeah. So when when I started with Langley Community Action Team, it was primarily just come to the meetings and share your lived experience. And so for me, I was looking for opportunities to maybe address some of them more problematic experiences that I had in the recovery journey. Obviously, it wasn't smooth sailing. And not that I would expect it to be for anyone. But some of the problems that I ran into. were unnecessary. And so I wanted to be able to bring those experiences and those interactions with healthcare professionals in the things where so called experts or addiction counselors, or treatment senators, or doctors who thought they were being helpful, weren't, and in fact, maybe prolonged or delayed or created further challenges for me in my recovery journey. And I found, through my personal experience, that most of those problems were based on ideological beliefs that people held about addiction and substance use drugs in general, that were not really rooted in evidence. They're more rooted in just well, this is how we talk about this stuff. This I've grew up talking about it. This I grew up understanding it. I mean, very common, I think in our societies, if if you interact with someone and talk to someone who admits to or opens up to you about their substance use problem, then the knee jerk response, the first thing you say is "Oh, you should go to treatment."  

Daniel Snyder  09:43 

As though there is only one solution to drug problems, there is only one solution to addiction, it's residential drug treatment programs, of which there is no standard. There is no standard in terms of what kind of treatment you will receive in those places. And not only that, it's not necessarily the best approach for every single individual. And so I'm much more interested in in kind of the person. And I think as a society, I found, I found people were more preoccupied with my behavior, the outward stuff, the symptoms, which is what we love to take, we love here in the West, we love symptoms and treating symptoms. And we, we ignore the root problems, the core issues, the deeper, deeper stuff, because I mean, as a society, obviously the symptoms are what caused the problems that hurt others. And so we've really not collectively learned how to address the core issues that people have and the reasons they do the things that they do. So I actually never even took a close look or even had people encouraging me to take a close look at the reasons I was struggling with drug use 

Daniel Snyder  10:59 

 For the most part, it was drugs are bad, and you need to stop doing them, information I already happened to have.  At least, although even that I think is reductive, I wouldn't say today drugs are bad. I wouldn't say drugs are good, I would say drugs are just drugs, they're tools that can be used for benefit or for harm. I mean, as far as I even know the original root pharmakeia, the Greek, is a dual meaning word that means poison and cure. So context, the reasons the motivation, the purpose that a person chooses to engage in drug use is the most important issue. The drug use is not the important issue. So, all that to say that, you know, when I joined the community action team, it was it was about sharing those perspectives. And very quickly, I found people were interested, people were curious, people were disappointed to hear some of the stories. And I found it was not uncommon that people like myself, patients, the people that were wanting to help who do have substance use disorders, are often not really given agency over their life, over their decisions, over their, their options. Mostly, they're told what to do, or what they should do. 

Daniel Snyder  12:29 

And so my interest is in people. And then the macro policy systems that should or should change in order to create a better system that's focused on the person instead of the outward behaviors and social impacts, which, yes, need to be addressed as a society, but not at the individual level, more at the policy level. So I could share a story, like one of the stories of one of the, one of my experiences that I shared initially, when I first joined the committee was well, this is also a long story. Whereas so in the, in the world that I grew up in, where the approach which was primarily fairly conservative, and the approach to addiction was primarily one of "you should be absent, you should not use drugs, you need to stop." And fair enough, because the the obvious consequences, or the consequences were obvious to all, maybe, maybe, maybe not all the time, but the majority of the time, consequences were obvious to all right. And so it's not, it's not wrong to say "you need to change your behaviour." But not all avenues of change were acceptable. Mainly, the only avenue that was really a prevent, provided as an option was to be abstinent. Right. So stop using all substances.  

Daniel Snyder  14:04 

And it wasn't really ever even [on] my radar, a consideration that may, there might be alternatives to that. I actually never learned much about harm reduction principles until... Uh, maybe even only the last 10 years. So the first, I'm 43 now so the first, you know, from my late teens, when my substance use began through to my mid 30s harm reduction wasn't a principle that I was taught about or cared about. And if I had heard about it, it was always from, like, the lens of harm reduction is a very bad thing that enables people to continue using drugs and harming themselves. So it's actually not an acceptable principle. And because that came from [an] exclusively ideological perspective, not a learned perspective, just one where it was kind of just a regurgitated anything that doesn't push towards abstinence is bad. It was not something that I would have considered. So being [as] heroin was my drug of choice, opioids, which creates severe physical dependence, the biggest challenge that I faced always was the withdrawal phase of stopping substance use. And it was, it was a barrier every time. I always felt that if I could just make it through the, through that phase that things would get significantly easier, but I often failed in the detox process in the withdrawal process.  

Daniel Snyder  15:51 

I often couldn't, you know, couldn't survive more than the three, three or four days. And then I would be,  would be back. Now I did manage to detox and completely become abstinent many times. But it never resulted in lasting, lasting change. And retrospectively looking back at those, those years, those times, the change was not sustainable because it wasn't really genuine. And it wasn't really rooted in anything that I could hold on to that was like, "oh, yeah, I understand why." So there was no insight into the roots of the substance use. Actually, I remember, a friend of mine, asked me one tim,. I had experience, I had a relapse and he said to me, "why, like, why did you relapse again?" And I realised in that, as I, that I didn't have an answer, like my snap response was, "I don't know." And at least he had the wisdom to say, "Well, if you can't answer that question then it's, you probably will just continue repeating this pattern, this cycle, because you need insight." That was um, came at a time in my life when it was, when I was able to take what he said and realise there was truth in it.  

Daniel Snyder  17:16 

So it became a moment where I was like, oh, if I don't answer the question about why, why question, I will never break the pattern. And certainly, there was a significant level of hopelessness, at that time in my life that I truly believed to some level that I would never break the pattern. So an option that hit my radar, at some point in time was opioid agonist therapy, which is medications like Methadone and Suboxone. And now there's Sublocade,  the injection. Didn't even, never even heard of it. I don't think it was available in those years. Even Suboxone was a fairly new as a treatment, when I first heard about it. But I didn't really have a support system that thought those were valid options for most of the years. Of course, there was a lot of repetition and I think people get worn down and they're like, "okay, everything we've tried over these years hasn't worked. Maybe at some point in time, we need to expand our considerations to other treatment methods."  

Daniel Snyder  18:22 

And so as the years wore on, and maybe perhaps I even developed a little more agency over my own journey, and was learning to tell people, "Hey, this is what I want," or "this is what I need." The idea of pursuing that as a treatment method became more real to me, more, more of an option, an option I would consider. So finally, I did actually get induced onto Suboxone, stopped using heroin and, and began using that medication as a treatment. And it was life changing. Like I couldn't believe it, because I went from being severely dependent on, on heroin and needing it like seven, eight times a day to taking this one pill under the tongue in the morning, Suboxone, and and it holding, and then being able to go to work and not having cravings and not going into withdrawal and actually, like, being fully functional. It was shocking. I actually, I had no idea that was even possible. And so I literally stabilised overnight or over a period of 48 or 72 hours. I went from very chaotic drug use to being completely stable and able to maintain my employment and housing and relationships, virtually overnight, a shocking thing.  

Daniel Snyder  19:51 

The doctor however that was providing the Suboxone and supporting that, this treatment process was not, um. Not the most helpful and put a lot of requirements or a say expectations around that, that were beyond, that weren't what I wanted. And even though I expressed, so for instance, I went into the office and I had said, you know, "listen, I want to consider the Suboxone, I'm open to it. What do you [think]? And I'd like to do it for three months and then taper because I think I can stabilise and I feel like I have a tremendous support group, family, loved ones, around me, job, housing, all that stuff is taken care of. So I feel if I could just stabilise on the off the heroin, stabilise on the Suboxone taper off, that I have enough other supports that I can go on with my life sober and abstinent." That was what I expressed was my intention, my goal, which was rejected, "no, sorry, you can't be on it for only three months, you, if you want to do this, you must commit to one year minimum." Now. Is that a, was that, was that her? What she wanted as a doctor? Is that a provincial policy?  

Daniel Snyder  21:09 

It's not, it. I don't know what it is. Actually, I probably need to learn more about, you know, why a doctor feels that they should tell you how long you should be on a medication. And of course, I mean, it's no, we all have heard perhaps heard stories about Methadone, and doctors who tell patients that "no, you should be on this for the rest of your life." So anyway, I was willing to commit to the year I'm like, "well, three months, a year, it's, you know, it's stabilising me, let's do it." Okay. And then I said, "at the end of the year, I'd like to taper off." And so she was supportive of that. And as I began tapering off at the end of that year, it was not, it was problematic for me, it was not an easy process, it was a real challenge. And I developed severe anxiety as my dose decreased. And once I got to a certain level of the dose, the anxiety was, was just so high, that relapse became almost inevitable. I just couldn't cope with it. So it was either, maybe, in retrospect, a wiser decision at the time might have been to increase the suboxone dose again.  

Daniel Snyder  22:20 

But at my core, that wasn't what I wanted and the anxiety just was very consuming and I ended up relapsing multiple times during that tail-end period and during that taper period, and as I went to the doctor and opened up and was vulnerable about this, the response was, "you need to increase the suboxone dose, we need to stabilise you, and then probably you should just be on this for the rest of your life," end have conversation. But sorry, that's not what I want. I don't, I told you from day one, when I got on this medication, I don't want to be on it long term. You forced me to be on it longer than I initially wanted and now I'm stuck on it and I don't seem to get, be able to get off of it because it's a real challenge. The end result, she wouldn't provide any other supports. Or, except my, I mean, I said no, I'm tapering no matter what. And of course, I mean, at that point in time, she's got no choice. I mean, it's out of her hands, I can taper on my own and just take less medication. Still um, but it wasn't working out for me and the, what I ended up doing was actually paying to go to a private treatment centre in Alberta.  

Daniel Snyder  23:31 

I actually called all over the place and I couldn't find anyone that was willing to help me through a Suboxone detox. And so a heroin detox that I'm very familiar with, on average lasts, you know, three to seven days, the worst of it is kind of over after the third, fourth day. And then by the seventh day, you're semi [funct], I was semi functional. Suboxone detox is not like, it was 30 days of hell. And I didn't sleep through the night for, for 30 days. But thankfully, I was able to get myself perhaps due, due to incredible resources and supports and truly privileges that I had access to. I had the funds to access a treatment or detox facility like that, a private one. It cost, if I remember correctly, it was just over $10,000 to to be there for 30 days. Not something most people might even be able to do and they provided me the, the treatment that I asked for, which was really incredible. Not only did they support me in detoxing off Suboxone, when I was in, in difficulty during that process, they gave me medication, benzos uh, anti-anxiety medication like Valium and Ativan to help me cope and get through it, which was huge because any of the other times, I've detoxed in many public detoxes, I would experience this anxiety, which was very intense and I would ask doctors for an anti-anxiety medication, and it was always denied.  

Daniel Snyder  25:18 

Because here's, here's what the way I understand that, "sorry, these anti-anxiety medications are addictive and we wouldn't want to give you something that you could get addicted to." Well, hello? I already understand addiction, I'm already addicted to something pretty serious, and like, I'm trying to get off of it, and this other medication might support that process. So to me, it was I mean, it's probably pretty nuanced and complicated. And I realise policies that doctors must abide by. But for me, this is what I hear, I hear, "I'm sorry, we got to protect ourselves more than we can care about you. We've got to protect our prescribing practices, we operate exclusively out of fear with drugs. So we're worried, we're worried, we're always worried that you might take it wrong or take too much to come to benefit. So no, you can't have it, you must suffer." And it feels like a double standard, often too, compared to the way other patients are treated. That we really don't treat people with addictions like they, like they're even intelligent people. Like they have, like they can think for themselves, or that they can be capable of making rational decisions.  

Daniel Snyder  26:39 

And for me, just retrospectively looking at all the things I asked for treatment-wise, they were all rational decisions that were denied by so-called experts, because they thought they knew better, even though they didn't really understand me, certainly didn't have the time to know me. I mean, most of these interactions are very brief, minutes. The doctor that prescribed me Suboxone over that year, I mean, I couldn't have spent more than two hours with that woman, total, in a year and yet, she was making all the decisions about my health care, and how I should be treated, how my my addiction should be treated. Not only was she making all decisions, she truly did not believe anything I said and approached it from the perspective of people with addictions are liars and can't be believed. I need to be concerned about him diverting the medication, I need to be concerned about him using other drugs while on the medication, I can't believe him. 

Daniel Snyder  27:39 

Well, I mean, I was drug tested. Every time I went there, you know, pee in a cup, and then walk to the front of the clinic and place your pee on the counter in front of all the other patients who are not dealing with addictions, because it's a walk in clinic, they are just you know, people from the community. Those are the stories that, those are the things that really need to change in terms of the way we treat people with addictions. It's just, I mean, how difficult would it be to leave that in the back? As opposed to you know, oh, well, you know, you might swap it, you might cheat. Why are we even concerned about people cheating? On their drug test? I mean, they already have an issue. Like let's, anyway, okay, that was long winded. 

Lucas Akai  28:30 

No, but it's valuable experience needs to be shared. Now, I do have a question. So you had mentioned that the Suboxone usage over that year period had resulted in, like, a hellish detox.  

Daniel Snyder  28:42 

Yes.  

Lucas Akai  28:43 

Was that a result of the long term use? And if it had been three months, it would not have been as bad or? Having never been on it and not experienced it.  

Daniel Snyder  28:51 

I'm not sure that there would have been a dramatic difference from three months to a year. I mean, like most medications or drugs, I would suspect the longer that you take them, the more challenging it is to titrate, detox, taper off. Yeah, I don't know if there's any more I could, could say about that. I just, or perhaps my biology is one that like, I'm not genuine. I'm not naturally prone to anxiety, which is [an] interesting thing. Like I don't, in general, in my life, I don't experience problematic anxiety. I certainly have anxiety, but it's not, you know, life controlling 

Lucas Akai  29:30 

right 

Daniel Snyder  29:30 

problem. But in the substance use context, anxiety becomes an issue for me. And so that's where I would try to express that to doctors and professionals. But it was always something because there was a substance use disorder attached to the anxiety. "Sorry, you just got to suffer. You don't get treatment for that. You. It's just too risky to give someone with an addiction another addictive drug." Which, again, to me, it just speaks to an unwillingness to know the person and to listen to the person. And the, probably embedded in that is this cultural belief that people with addictions are liars, right? This is what we've, we've stereotyped addictions, and reduced the people that experience them to just labels, right, and one word things. They're, they're, they're liars, and they're criminals, and they're thieves and they're junkies and they're crackheads. And we have all these pejorative terms, there's nothing positive about anyone with an addiction, there's nothing good about them, there's no consideration of the fact that they might have more to them than just the addiction.  

Daniel Snyder  30:49 

And, you know, a very significant part of my story is the fact that I never became homeless. Never, was even without work, during my years in addiction, and had also as a result of certain privileges and access to resource, the ability to not even fall into the stereotypical look, which I, it's so awkward, I hate talking about this. But um...Certainly, if we say the word addict or, most people forming an idea in their mind of what they perceive that person to look like, and that idea is formed by all the movies you've watched, and then recording you've seen, and nothing really more, unless you happen to have had some personal experience with someone who was very functional in their addiction. And for the most part, the vast majority, I was very functional, didn't really dress or look particularly different than I do now. And because of that, most of the time, it was all about a strong effort to make sure people didn't know this side of me. So it's, it was all about hiding, right?  

Daniel Snyder  32:13 

Hiding that, hiding that side of me and attempting on the outside to look like normal, normal person, right? In quotes there. So I think that that's an important element that and I think that that's actually my story is maybe the more common one, right? Thinking of the Downtown Eastside in Vancouver, and people who do become homeless as a result of perhaps their addiction. Those aren't, that's not the common story. That's not most people's experience. And most people are maybe more similar to myself, or maybe, maybe most people that do develop, addictions don't even end up in, I think going to treatment and going, they just grow out of it. Over time they mature, they figure out that life has more meaning, other things are more meaningful than this thing. And then you stop or change your behaviour as a result. That's the more common story, but it's not very interesting. Can't make good movies about it and that sort of thing, right? 

Lucas Akai  33:16 

 Certainly doesn't drive clicks for  

Daniel Snyder  33:19 

no, no,  

Lucas Akai  33:20 

certainly not. And so maybe just to establish like a timeline. When did your experiences with Suboxone? When was that? [When did you' get off that?  

Daniel Snyder  33:33 

Yeah, do you want to go like, maybe do a real quick timeline from the beginning of my substance use? 

Lucas Akai  33:37 

Absolutely, that'd be perfect.  

Daniel Snyder  33:39 

So started with cannabis, probably about 18, let's say 18 years old. And very quickly, through the social group that I was a part of cannabis and alcohol, pretty much simultaneous timing. Through the social group, I was a part of, they were very open mind, open to experience with other substances. So I was with friends, this was all recreational substance use, there was no one that I was associated with that was, you know, addicted to a drug at the time. I actually didn't even have a framework for addiction. Like it wasn't. I was using drugs and did not know that a possibility was dependence and addiction, is [was] just, it wasn't in my realm of growing up as a child, I wasn't exposed to it. The the extent of drug education that I can remember was, don't do drugs, drugs are bad. But of course, when you're 18, and then you're in a friend group where a lot of people are doing drugs and no one is experiencing really adverse consequences. Like everyone got up the next morning and went to work. Everyone continued on with their lives.  

Daniel Snyder  34:56 

All the relationships appeared to be stable. Oh, obviously, as we know, problems with drugs don't arrive on day one. But that was kind of what I was told, right? When you take drugs, your brain gets fried, like an egg in a frying pan 

Lucas Akai  35:10 

yep 

Daniel Snyder  35:11 

immediately.  

Lucas Akai  35:12 

yep 

Daniel Snyder  35:12 

This is what drugs do, and et cetera, et cetera. And then when you when you go through three months, six months a year of partying with friends, and nothing really bad happens. You kind of like ore like, well, well, those things were all lies? Or there's, not, it does. Obviously, it's not me. And I remember joking with friends about how we thought we were just the greatest, most responsible drug users in the world. And well, actually, we weren't joking. I think we were serious. Clearly, we were confused, but so yeah, alcohol, cannabis, and then a lot of experimenting with psychedelics, and then cocaine, even freebase crack cocaine and, and mostly just fun. And those years went on for three or four years. And then in my early 20s, I started using crystal meth and that's when it, the use was pretty problematic. Mainly just due to access, access use and so the meth journey lasted a couple of years. And near the tail end of that. That was when I was first introduced to opioids, and it was fairly innocent. It was through pills. And so at that time, in my life, I definitely had a belief structure around heroin.  

Daniel Snyder  36:32 

Heroin was like the worst drug. I actually call it the stigma hierarchy, which is quite interesting. I've, I remember, having friends who were cannabis users, well your alcohol friends would be like, "Oh, I drink alcohol, but I don't smoke weed." And you know, they might drink a little too much alcohol, but at least they didn't smoke weed, right? And then, of course, my friends who did smoke weed would often say silly things like, "Well, I don't do coke. I'm just, you know, I just smoke weed," thinking that somehow that makes them better, right? But the hierarchy just goes up and up?  

Lucas Akai  37:08 

Yep 

Daniel Snyder  37:08 

Or is it down and down? My cocaine using friends would say, "Well, you know, I don't smoke crack, at least." So and then the next level is, you know, "well at least I don't do heroin," of course people who did heroin would say "at least I don't, don't inject it. I only smoke it." And then you know, it goes on and on. So I certainly thought, oh, because I didn't use heroin I was still okay. Still better than, in that sense. Friend introduced me to pills, which were hydromorphone, very potent synthetic opioid, Dilaudid. And it was the most amazing experience of my life. But I didn't even know what I had taken. I didn't realise it was the same class of drugs as heroin. I mean, it was basically heroin,  

Lucas Akai  37:55 

Right  

Daniel Snyder  37:55 

It's just a pharmaceutical grade synthetic, pure, even better, really. 

Lucas Akai  37:59 

Right. Super heroin.  

Daniel Snyder  38:01 

Yeah. And with no awareness that that's what I was taking. 

Daniel Snyder  38:05 

Just an amazing experience it in the sense that I actually felt like I was functioning optimally and at my very best when I took it, which was a very interesting thing. And I also felt incredibly comfortable in my own skin, when I was on heroin. Or on, at that time, those pills. The friend who was supplying them to me gave me quite a lot Whenever I wanted it, and without my even own awareness, I developed a dependence on it. So that would have been, I would say, 1999 or so. I was, maybe 2000- 2001. vague. So I was probably 21, 22 years old. And he, he had a situation where he had to leave the province quickly. And suddenly, I found myself in withdrawal from opioids, no idea what I was experiencing. And, you know, doing some Googling, and realising that I was dependent on opioids, and then very quickly seeking heroin on the street to deal with the withdrawal. And so from that age 22, 23 on, that was the heroin cycle, which was a lot of use for three months, use for six months, maybe enter a detox or treatment facility. Be abstinent for six months, be absintent.  

Lucas Akai  38:05 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  39:38 

I had an abstinence for a year. I had abstinence for two years. I had abstinence for three years during that time, and then just a lot of relapse, a lot of relapse. That went on almost 15 years. And the Suboxone did not enter that conversation or that, that part of the story was right near the tail end. So that was probably 2013? 2013, 2014? 2014, yeah, that would be my guess. And then, you know, I had that, that experience. I went to that out of province detox, returned home. I believe I had one more relapse about six months to a year later and that was the last one. And, you know, it's like, what changed? Well, that's maybe another whole conversation, right? It's like, that's kind of the timeline. So 2016 or so? I would say, I entered what would be called abstinence-based recovery. I stopped using all drugs, I was completely off Suboxone. I was 100% sober. My primary drug of choice was caffeine. Didn't smoke. I haven't smoked for years, I smoked cigarettes when I was younger, but no, not, not probably, not for years. And yes, sober for many years.  

Daniel Snyder  41:07 

And then I'll, in the recent, in recent years, made conscious, measured, responsible decision to reintroduce some substances into my life, mainly it because of what I've been learning about psychedelic therapy, and the use of Psilocybin and MDMA, and Ayahuasca as treatment, as healing tools. And so began learning about that, and very open in that sense. And then also reintroducing cannabis use into my life, and in, something I reassess and think about regularly and, and consider how that balances with having a past problem with drugs. And how foreign to many people in my circle, someone who once had a very severe, nearly died from their addiction, has experienced overdose, continue later in their life, using drugs that people have problems with, how is that possible? So I think that's an important part of this story as well. The cultural belief, I think around addiction is once you're, once an addict, always an addict, a very cliche thing that's, that's thrown out there.  

Daniel Snyder  42:35 

Especially kind of more, in the more traditional, you know, 12-step modality of treatment, that's one thing you'll hear a lot if you go to those rooms is "Oh, once, you know, you have to deal with this forever. This problem is your problem forever, you have to always watch out because alcohol or whatever it is, it's gonna get you" 

Lucas Akai  42:54 

right 

Daniel Snyder  42:55 

again, and I just I don't see that. That doesn't make sense to me. Other things, I don't relate to the person that I once was, it's, that person doesn't actually really exist anymore. I'm simply, I'm [a] totally different person. So fearing. For me to fear falling back into that is irrational, although there's an awareness, a conscious awareness of...you don't want to become complacent and think you're invincible. So it's a balance. It's a balancing act. And that really is the theme of my life is balance, finding balance. Not to suggest that I live in perfect balance. I think that's something we reassess, like almost, like all the time, right, 

Lucas Akai  43:40 

absolutely 

Daniel Snyder  43:41 

we're always trying to find where we've gone out of balance and bring it back into balance, right? So.  

Lucas Akai  43:46 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you'd mentioned, you'd mentioned that you had family support through a majority of the time? Was that the whole period of?  

Daniel Snyder  43:56 

Yes. So I am very grateful for the family support that I have had through my entire life. Both immediate, so immediate family that which would be primarily my mother, very supportive, always there for me. And then, as I, as I grew up, I, so I'm married, and I got married about almost 16 years ago. And so in, the first, almost 10 years of my marriage was rocky. Because, yeah, a lot of the relapse occurred in those years. That was where the, you know, the longer periods of sobriety and abstinence also took place, but also, 

Lucas Akai  44:41 

right 

Daniel Snyder  44:41 

there was a lot of relapse, which is very  

Daniel Snyder  44:43 

trying, but one of the, trying on the relationship, obviously. But what's amazing is that both my mum and my wife actually ignored a lot of the advice that they got, which was the enabling type of advice. My mom would get told things like you need to kick him out, you need to cut him off, you need to stop letting him stay at your house, you need to stop feeding him, you need to stop those sorts of things.  

Lucas Akai  44:43 

right 

Lucas Akai  45:09 

Yes, yeah.  

Daniel Snyder  45:10 

And most of, the vast majority of the time, she ignored that. And which is something I'm incredibly thankful for. Because truly, my personality is one in which, had my own mother cut me off, I don't think I'd be alive today. Had she followed the guidance of professionals, experts, who said she was enabling me to continue in my addiction, I wouldn't have been able to handle that rejection. I would have perceived it as rejection. I already thought of myself at the very core as a complete failure, someone who was useless and really had no value on Earth. And had, you know, had someone, had they run one of those interventions, tv style 

Lucas Akai  46:00 

right 

Daniel Snyder  46:00 

interventions  

Daniel Snyder  46:01 

on me and sat me down and said, "you know, you go today, or you're out, we want nothing to do with you." That might have been the last my last day alive. I mean, I, I wouldn't have been able to handle it. And then the same with my wife who stood by my side, certainly had multiple people tell her to divorce me. And she believed in me, truly, she saw more than what was there, she saw potential. She, she had hope. And that doesn't mean it was an easy course or something that she navigated. Like, "oh, here's the plan and here's how I'm gonna do this." It was messy, of course. And, and with a lot of, "Well, is he gonna make it?" like a lot of fear 

Lucas Akai  46:01 

yes 

Lucas Akai  46:46 

right  

Daniel Snyder  46:46 

Like, "is he gonna? Is this the right thing to do, is believing him? And is there, is believing in him worthwhile?" But she hung on, as did others and saw the potential that was in me, and it paid off.  

Lucas Akai  47:00 

That's great. That's great. And so just, again, for the timeline, when did you start working with the action teams?  

Daniel Snyder  47:07 

I believe it's uh 27? No, 2018 maybe end of 2017 

Lucas Akai  47:13 

okay 

Daniel Snyder  47:13 

 or 2018? 

Lucas Akai  47:13 

okay 

Daniel Snyder  47:14 

Yeah, I wish I could be a little more precise   

Lucas Akai  47:16 

no worries  

Daniel Snyder  47:17 

but that's, that sounds about right. Yeah.  

Lucas Akai  47:19 

Right. So right, kind of when they were just declaring the Opioid Crisis?  

Daniel Snyder  47:22 

Yeah, so it was 2016 when I was really starting to hear 

Lucas Akai  47:26 

yep  

Daniel Snyder  47:26 

about it and hear about fentanyl for the 

Lucas Akai  47:29 

yep  

Daniel Snyder  47:30 

first time. I mean, in, I think I only knew one person that died from overdose back in the, you know, late 90s, early 2000s. 

Daniel Snyder  47:39 

Really? Wow. 

Daniel Snyder  47:40 

Most of, yeah overdose wasn't a thing we worried about.  

Lucas Akai  47:44 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  47:46 

When you look at the stats related to the Overdose Crisis, going back in time in British Columbia, an average year was about 250 deaths from overdose. And it was always the same, like it never changed 250 every year for like, 20 years, approximately. And then it was in 2016 when it, when it spiked. That, that first year, 2016 was like almost 1000 people.  

Lucas Akai  48:07 

Yeah.  

Daniel Snyder  48:08 

Which is was obviously significant enough that it caused the declaration of the public health emergency.  

Daniel Snyder  48:13 

And now, last year was over 2200 people, which is insane compared to 250. So yeah, I never, I never was concerned about overdose 

Lucas Akai  48:13 

Yep. 

Lucas Akai  48:25 

right  

Daniel Snyder  48:25 

never worried about it wasn't on my radar, I didn't know people that [overdosed], and then all of a sudden, people start dropping 

Lucas Akai  48:32 

right  

Daniel Snyder  48:32 

around me and I start hearing stories of friends or acquaintances or people I've known that are no longer, have just died. And so that was what got the wheels turning because I, I very quickly realised, "oh, I wouldn't survive this. I [wouldn't] survive this. If I was still using" like it might. The thing that separates me from 10,000 people in this province who have died is timing, simply, like nothing more. Because for sure, I'd be a statistic because I used alone in, in bathrooms and behind closed doors exclusively. Because I always wanted to hide my addiction. I always wanted to appear on the outside like I was a contributing member of society or whatever, like that, that, that those words contributing member of society. I don't know where that came from, in my childhood, but it embedded itself in there somewhere. And it was like that was what you're supposed to do 

Lucas Akai  49:26 

yeah 

Daniel Snyder  49:26 

as as an adult.  

Lucas Akai  49:27 

Yep 

Daniel Snyder  49:27 

And so I needed to portray that. And so of course, my drug use was always hidden behind closed doors and 100% if I had overdosed it, I'd be dead. No one would find me. So I would not have, I would never have used an overdose prevention site, would never have, it was 

Lucas Akai  49:47 

right 

Daniel Snyder  49:47 

I was, that was ego and pride. 100%, right? I'm better than those people, look at the homeless people. 

Lucas Akai  49:54 

Right  

Daniel Snyder  49:54 

That's not me.  

Lucas Akai  49:54 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  49:55 

I'm so much better. I was not, so messed up looking at it in retrospect, but it, it was that barrier. That was one of the barriers. So stigma plays into that.  

Lucas Akai  50:04 

Yeah. It goes back to that hierarchy stigma that you mentioned earlier.  

Daniel Snyder  50:10 

Right, because, you know, sit around on Friday afternoon with your co workers, and everyone's comfortable talking about the party that they're gonna go drink at.  

Lucas Akai  50:18 

Right, yeah.  

Daniel Snyder  50:19 

But if you're planning to go to a rave, and you're going to do some ecstasy, you're, you're really selective with who hears that. Right.  

Lucas Akai  50:26 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  50:26 

Because of the judgement and the stigma that you perceive you might get from certain people. That's too bad.  

Lucas Akai  50:34 

And so your work with the CAT teams from about 2018, 2017 onwards? What type of position has been like, as a volunteer of a leader?  

Daniel Snyder  50:44 

Right. Yeah, when I started, I just came in as a community member  

Lucas Akai  50:48 

okay 

Daniel Snyder  50:49 

sharing my lived experience. So, you know, we use this term peer,  

Daniel Snyder  50:55 

which is, essentially means, you know, a person with lived or living experience, some, a person who has used drugs, or maybe still does, has experience with that. And so I was basically a peer, and the Langley CAT has, you know, a core peer group that's supporive of people who are with past and current substance use struggles and they get to share their, their experiences, their perceptions, the way they, they understand things and it's incredibly valuable. Obviously, that's who we need to learn from  in this crisis. And what, and I it's so hopeful to me that we're giving people agency and realising "Oh, yeah, they're not. They're not all stupid. They, they're human beings, with lives and stories," right. So I joined as a community member and then in 2018, a project was put on the table that the CAT wanted to start up. And they've, it since got called We All Play a Role [...] Responding to Overdose in Langley Through Education. And it was designed to be like an education project that would go out in the community, and they wanted to hire someone to run the project.  

Lucas Akai  50:55 

yeah 

Daniel Snyder  52:16 

So I applied. And in that capacity, the, the CAT hired me, and for the last four years, I've been running that project. And then when COVID, Fraser Health was a big part of that committee, still is, but they were basically in charge of the committee at the time. And when COVID the hit, Fraser Health employees that were part of the CAT, were actually seconded into COVID work. And as such, the CAT would have ceased to exist, really had I not just stepped in and said, "I'll take on the chairing role," there was simply no one part of it at the time that had capacity. And because I was already a, an employee of the Role project, I was able to become a paid coordinator of the CAT. So I've been doing that 

Lucas Akai  53:09 

right  

Daniel Snyder  53:09 

essentially coordinating the CAT for last few years.  

Lucas Akai  53:13 

And um, just to be mindful of time, but I do have a question just because I think it'll wrap this up nicely.  

Daniel Snyder  53:19 

Perfect.  

Lucas Akai  53:19 

You've mentioned this, the stigma, the things that particular in conservative households have just taught us, abstinency, be abstinent from drugs, just don't do it. Just like stay away from it entirely. But from your own experience, and now being abstinent from at least opioids for a number of years. Do you think that moving forward with this toxic drug crisis that there is still a role to play for that type of abstinency position? Or is it really just an outdated lesson from the past?  

Daniel Snyder  53:53 

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, one, I would say that we always have to have options available for people that say, "This is what I want"  

Daniel Snyder  54:01 

and we will always have people that will say "I want to be 100% abstinent from all substances." And, yes, I'm aware that, particularly if that person might have been opioid dependent, that moving into abstinence-based recovery could be very risky, especially in the context of a toxic drug supply. I know how much relapse I experienced. And so you know, say I'm in treatment for a week, my tolerance would be back to, back to baseline, probably. 

Lucas Akai  54:01 

right  

Lucas Akai  54:34 

 Right.  

Daniel Snyder  54:34 

And had I relapsed, which I did many times, and that, in a very similar scenario. It was, it's highly likely that that would result in, in an overdose, maybe even a fatal overdose. So I'm a little torn because I want people to have autonomy and choice and that comes with risk. So I think that their responsibility is to communicate the risk but still give the choice. And so I would always want to support abstinence-based treatment centres. But I think a lot of people are, well, for lack of a better word here, coerced into that form of treatment, it may not be really what they want, or they may not know, like me, that there's alternative options.  

Lucas Akai  55:18 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  55:19 

It's not always communicated. If you come from, you know, a conservative slash religious circle, you might not have heard that there are other ways of doing things. Or you might have only heard that those ways are bad ways.  

Lucas Akai  55:33 

Enabling ways.  

Daniel Snyder  55:34 

Enabling ways or ways that do not result in in freedom. You know, a funny thing or a transformative thing, too, for me was realising that actually a lot of those voices are incredibly hypocritical, because, and our society is also hypocritical in this way. We don't think alcohol is a drug, or we forget 

Lucas Akai  55:53 

yeah  

Daniel Snyder  55:54 

that we pretend it's not, I don't know what we're doing.  

Lucas Akai  55:56 

Yeah.  

Daniel Snyder  55:57 

But we, we say, you know, that alcohol is something else. But it's a it's a drug, like any other.  

Lucas Akai  56:06 

Yep. 

Daniel Snyder  56:06 

You know, I often when I'll speak publicly, all I'll ask people, most people don't want to answer I do it in a humorous way with some levity, like "were are my drug users at? Who are my drug users 

Lucas Akai  56:16 

right 

Daniel Snyder  56:16 

 in the room.?" And you know, most people are like, "I'm not." Like, "Well, where are my alcohol users?" And then almost everyone's willing  

Lucas Akai  56:23 

yep 

Daniel Snyder  56:23 

to say, and I'd be like, "so you do know you're a drug user, then?"  

Daniel Snyder  56:27 

"Oh, really? Oh, I don't want to call myself a drug user. Drug users are bad people." And then they immediately become aware of their  

Lucas Akai  56:27 

Right. 

Lucas Akai  56:36 

right 

Daniel Snyder  56:36 

own judgement and their own hypocrisy, and it's, it's just, yeah, it's something I really am passionate about, like helping people be aware of that.  

Daniel Snyder  56:45 

Yeah.  

Daniel Snyder  56:45 

Let's stop demonising drugs themselves. 

Caitlin Burritt  56:59 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.