Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC.   

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung interview Lily about her personal financial stressors as a peer worker. Lily explains that the compensation for peer work remains undervalued and she often struggles to pay her rent and debt as the BC housing market soars. Lily discusses how integral family support is but also illustrates how her own internal stigma has caused her to hide a lot of her hardships from the people in her personal life. 

Lily  02:02 

Sorry for missing lately. Doing a little better now. Life's been a hard time, so 

Esther Cheung  02:08 

how's it been? 

Lily  02:10 

Oh, just having lots of bad luck and then a bit of good luck. But just dealing with some really bad financial battles still, 

Esther Cheung  02:17 

okay 

Lily  02:17 

like two weeks ago, I had collections take $950 off my paycheck because I'm in debt, and I haven't worked on a payment plan yet. And then they ended up giving me $400 back. Then, I've been working to, like, apply for a loan that my dad's gonna help me cosign on so and [we] can get these guys off my back. And on Friday, that just happened, that's the paycheck I need for rent. They took $1,350 from me. So it was like, left with, like, nothing. I literally, like, spent so many hours on the phone with them in the last two weeks trying to get this sorted and um. It's just like, I normally when I get paid, I run to the bank at like 8am to take it all out in cash so that can't happen and they beat me to at this time on rent day. So I spent like three and a half hours on the phone before work, like, almost having a mental breakdown like "you can't keep doing this to me, like, this is insane." 

Lily  03:04 

 And after like hours of different managers and blah, blah, they agreed to give me it back,  so. But I'm still like, paid the rent, I have nothing left, which is fine because I'm used to that. But like, I couldn't believe it all being gone. It was like such a horrible stress in my life. And really, like, I already work so hard just to be able to, like, barely pay the rent and get by, you know. it's like, sucks when your debt comes out to bite you. Anyway, did you catch all that? 

Esther Cheung  03:30 

We did. Yeah. 

Lucas Akai  03:32 

We did. 

Lily  03:33 

It just been. I don't know, I feel like when my life gets more stressful, it's when I'm more likely to like cope with drugs too. And like, it's kind of like, catch 22. Right? Because, like, if I don't do it, like I can do better. 

Esther Cheung  03:46 

Yeah, that sounds really crazy. It's good to hear you're doing better right now, though.  

Lily  03:51 

Yeah. 

Esther Cheung  03:52 

Does that often happen that, that, you said that it's a typical thing for you to take out? Like run to the bank in the morning?  

Lily  03:59 

Yeah, I have to do that on payday. So I take it all out in cash so that they can't swipe it, I can't leave my cheque sitting in my account because collections will just go in and take it. So I've had that happen a few times. It's, like, hard to get by when they do that, you know?  

Esther Cheung  04:13 

Yeah. 

Esther Cheung  04:14 

How are you getting 

Lily  04:15 

Um, food Banks and learning to live with pretty much nothing. Yeah. I got $75 paycheck from our interviews. Sucks too because like when I'm unwell, then I end up missing which is like money, [which] is helpful. And it's all, it's all just a vicious circle like I described before, like stress influences this, which influences money, which influences all your other stress and, you know, it just goes in circles.  

Lily  04:15 

yeah. 

Esther Cheung  04:15 

by the past few weeks since they, since you were left with nothing? 

Lily  04:45 

Yeah, until I make better choices and take a break and not that it's always a choice. I don't I struggle with that word when you, you know, witness. You're not how you want to be and then still struggle to do it. Like, I feel like things are like, piling up in my house. So it's hard to be like, oh, take out the recycling, you know, like, little tasks can feel like difficult for me sometimes, with like depression, so. 

Lucas Akai  05:10 

So of course, last week, we talked a little bit about the financial aspects and your work as well and what that entails. And maybe just today, because, you know, you'd mentioned specifically that today was a busier day. How'd that go for you? Was it just the number of clients? Was it? Are there other things that are happening? 

Lily  05:32 

Um, yeah, we're just finding like, in there, like, a lot of them are starting to come really like late in the afternoon. So it like, might be like, [a] normal and slow kind of a day, but then at the end, we're getting like, this huge rush of people. So we're kind of just used to it, though, it's kind of how it goes. I mean, I wouldn't really want to, like get, wake up and come there at 9:30 in the morning, either, necessarily. It's kind of just fell just like a normal flow, really. 

Lucas Akai  05:59 

In terms of the financial aspect, because you raised something in particular today, just as you were talking, in terms of how that translates to housing, do you find that you have, as a result of maybe financial stress there's an additional housing stress on a week to week basis, or long term? Or? 

Lily  06:17 

Well, yeah, I mean, that's, uh, if I wasn't able to convince them to give it back, that would have, like, can potentially affect your housing completely, right? So um, thankfully, I have pretty good parents too, that are like, you know, they, I mean, they want to see me dealing with this. And they know I've had, I've leaned on them for support for the first time in my adult life ever, the last like six months. But they also, you know, like, if it is what it is, and something happened, like, I'm sure that they would rather lend me the money and see me like, lose my housing, like, they wouldn't really let that happen to me. So at the same time, they're like, I can't just lean on them for everything. Yeah, I am working on getting this loan that would pay off the collectors in full, like, 8% interest rate, like, I have bad credit, obviously. So my dad is gonna help me cosign on it to get it safely taken care of, because the collectors tried to offer me this consolidation loan, then it was like, at a 45% interest rate. But 45%? Like, that's insane, right? So it would make like a six grand debt be like $60,000, by the end of your term, like,  

Lucas Akai  07:28 

Yeah. 

Lily  07:29 

like, 45% interest. So my dad's like, that's insane. Like, you're not doing that, like, let me call my financial people, right? Like, he owns a house and has some savings, right, like, so I'm working with her to get, like an 8% loan. A normal loan, yeah. That's good. And, like, I think once that it's in place, and sorted with like, a monthly, like the payment plan arrangement, once I get it approved, then I agree to a payment arrangement for a loan, right? That will be like feasible. And then I won't have to actually worry about them taking money out of my bank, I can get paid and leave it there. And just like agree, like, it's still gonna be like, probably like $300 a month, I'm expected to pay back, which is a big chunk, but you know, I'm just trying to, like, I've been through so much like, really stressful financial hardship with all this and just having the $1,500 rent and, you know, at times, like not making always the best choices with my money because of a drug problem.  

Lily  08:24 

But and everything else, it's still like $1,500 Rent plus car insurance plus, cellphone bill, plus this and that, like, it's still like, groceries, like things still add up, right? Like, it's not that I'm, thankfully, I'm still paying rent doing all that and maintaining, but I'm just really sick of like, the whole being, having no money and having them take it from me, like I just want to get these things sorted. So my game plan actually, for this month to make things better is like, it might be like, still tight for a little bit, but I'm gonna get this better, by. I get like, $14-1,500 bi-weekly, right? So my rents $1530. So I'm used to having like, normally, I pay my rent, all with that check at the end of the month, and it's all gone. And I have no money for two weeks, that will on check I get like the whole amount when no rent to pay. So it's like pay my bills, do that. And then it tends to be, in the past, it's mostly all like the rest has been spent kind of on fun things, or detrimental things after I do like groceries and bills and all that. But it's always a struggle for the rent.  

Lily  09:25 

So on my check in two weeks from now, my plan is to pay like at least $500 bucks towards my rent early, on that cheque. So I'll pay like $500 bucks towards rent and then have $1,000 left for everything else. And then on the cheque two weeks from then, which is rent day, I will have already paid $500. So my $1,500 cheque, I'll pay 1000 for rent and then still have $500 bucks remaining. I just have to get like ahead, like, I'm paying some rent early. But I think in the end it's gonna like, benefit and provide some relief and more, like, even it out, and then you're not like set with like $1,500 that I could, you know, just frivolously like, I don't know, like, it just gives me less opportunity to do that, and guarantee that I will have enough money to pay my rent on the next one. Because sometimes I only get like $1400 or $1450, well, then I'm still short on rent, and have no money left, you know? So I think this is gonna be a good thing. 

Lily  09:51 

In terms of the financial planning aspects, which this definitely includes 

Lily  10:23 

yeah 

Lucas Akai  10:24 

is that something where your work provides support and helping, like, plan out financing, given your work as a peer? Or is that something that comes from your parents or? 

Lily  10:34 

Um, not like specifically financial, like they, I have been, like reminded lately that they have a counsellor. So we can get free six free sessions a year. And I haven't done that for a while. So I'm considering that again. Because there's also some other things that I don't think it'd be like the worst idea to do that. But kind of the idea of like, my good coworker actually was the one that told me, she's like, "Oh, I always pay a portion of my rent on the other check and that way it evens out" and it's like, that's a really good idea. I'm always just like waiting for the end of the month. But why not even out when your rent is half your income, do half and half and then you have half income, half rent, half income, half friend. So I just like, liked that idea and then I got screwed by collections two times this month, right, for all my money.  

Lily  11:19 

So it hasn't really led in the opportunity for me to be paying extra. And it's also just been, it's like, I've dealt with a lot of this financial stuff last year, it gets really hard too, like, I don't need a lot of money, I don't need a lot of things for what, but like, when you have nothing and you can't even like, buy like, one little thing or something like, it, I find, I do notice an effect emotionally, where like, I tend to feel more depressed, I can tend to gravitate more towards coping mechanisms. But then it's hard too, because I'm broke. And just in general, I'm not, I don't feel as relaxed and upbeat, just knowing you just have a little something like, or that things are taken care of.  

Lily  11:52 

It's like in this horrible like, you just always feel poor. And you know, your, your like, coworkers go buy coffee out. Yeah, as soon as I have this more relieved and settled, it just like, adds a bit of stability. And I guess, I'm gonna count on, like really money's not everything, but we can't go without any of it, you know. 

Lucas Akai  12:09 

And so in terms of like, the challenges and paying for your rent or food, is this something that has been a long term struggle since you've been employed with the current clinic? Or is  

Lily  12:18 

no,  

Lucas Akai  12:18 

of course, because of course, you've talked about your own times.  

Lily  12:21 

Yeah, it had to do with, I think, losing my housing last year, like I said, I was homeless for eight months, well living in a van. Because when I gained, got my housing again, I took the first place that could get it took me quite a while, and the rent was twice as much. So that has been a big factor. I went from paying 750 monthly to paying 1530. So I am keeping my eye out, maybe for like a two bedroom I could share with someone because, I live alone, right?  

Lucas Akai  12:44 

Sure. Of course.  

Lily  12:45 

But I needed a home. So  

Lucas Akai  12:48 

And so 

Lily  12:48 

yeah 

Lucas Akai  12:49 

maybe you can speak on to this in particular, when you were searching for another home, did you find that because of your employment history or your, you know, your current employment, did you find that you faced discrimination of any kind when you were looking for a home, or?  

Lily  13:01 

did I what, sorry? 

Lucas Akai  13:02 

any kind of discrimination as a result of your employment history? Your own personal history? 

Lily  13:07 

Oh, um, well, I think at times, I might have felt that, especially like, even after doing it now, like, I live in a three storey apartment building, I can really tell like, having like, my own space, like. Well, the funny thing is, I live alone, right? But I'm somebody that has pretty bad anxiety, and especially when I use, it's really bad. And I'm just like, always been sensitive to others and tend to get really self conscious of like, if my friends over and they're being loud, or like, playing music and like, I just, I've always been somebody that feels like I, I'm like "Oh, I'm bothering someone" or "I'm in the way" and, you know, had that instability, feeling like losing my housing, and I had a friend here once that got us a noise complaint and, you know, I'm just always trying to like, be my best and I just. 

Lily  13:46 

Yeah, I don't like the feeling of potentially, like, nobody's sitting there listening, you know, but [it] can give me weird anxiety of just like, "Ugh, people can hear what I do." And I don't know I just, I don't think I'm not as much a fan of apartment life. And third floor is a lot for my dog and I'm somebody that likes having like a house home. But one day, or like get a shared place with friends or. But the financial bit started from being yeah, like I said, from being homeless to finding housing at twice the price. Yeah. 

Lucas Akai  14:14 

And so with your current work with the um, and the amount of pay that you receive from that, assuming you take away the collections issue and 

Lucas Akai  14:15 

put that in the past as, and moving forward, it doesn't happen. How are your options in terms of finding new housing if that needed to be done? Does [bleeped] provide enough pay and compensation for that to be a possibility or? 

Lily  14:15 

yeah 

Lily  14:39 

Um, well, I think if I'm managing before it 1500 I can afford anything as a two bedroom then because if I split with a girlfriend then it's like going to be less rent money. The only other factor that makes me like somewhat hesitant to move is that like, I'm a five minute walk from my job. Literally a hop skip and a jump down the road and that lets me, like, come home for my dog on my break, which is an eight hour day, which is important for him, and I don't have like a partner here to support me without like I used to. So wherever I move, like, you know, is it gonna be somewhere that I have to take a bus? And like, is there someone gonna be home to take my dog out? I'm always like, kind of getting up at the last minute to get to work. And I mean, I guess most people factor in like that travel time, I don't know, I'm quite enjoying being this close, so. 

Lucas Akai  15:20 

And do you find that there is support provided, you know, as a peer, whether that's from your own work or from government provided support, in terms of addressing these housing challenges? Or is that not something that you have seen or noticed? 

Lily  15:32 

Um, I haven't really paid enough attention to it. But I really feel like the price of rent should be, like, looked at, like, seriously, just like too much, you know?  

Lucas Akai  15:40 

And so, in terms of housing, and the housing challenges that you face, do you find that it impacts your thoughts about your career trajectory or looking for other work, or? 

Lily  15:51 

Um, no, I'm really happy there. That's why I'm like, well, I'll move only if I can still get to my job easy, because I want my job, you know?  

Lucas Akai  15:59 

Right, right.  

Lily  16:00 

That's the thing, like if it's, even if the rents a little bit less, like, what am I giving up? In order to have that, save a little bit of money, yes, but now I'm taking a bus for 45 minutes to work, and I can't go home for my dog, like, I have to weigh out the pros and cons in that. So I'm, like, open to different housing, but I've like, let my friend know, like, "Well, it'd be great if it was like, around here, like in this neighbourhood or something like that," right.  

Lily  16:23 

So considering my options, I'm not going to go for something desperately that isn't as good like, and I think once I start doing this, split the rent halfway earlier in the month, that might just be the relief I need really, because, you know, I just need to be able to budget better. If I split that up, too, that means my spending money is more controlled. Like, I'm not left with all this money that I could screw over. Just pay some of the rent right off the bat, like, I'm gonna make myself do that in two weeks, 'cause I think then, by like January, and all that, going forward, like that could really provide a lot of relief, so 

Lucas Akai  16:57 

Right, right, of course.  And so would you consider yourself actively looking for a new location, a new housing location? Or is that something that's kind of more passive in terms of? 

Lily  17:08 

I haven't been searching that hard, but my friend really wants to move, and she'd like to move in with me. So she's kind of doing most of the hunting, or like, considering other people. We're all just like, searching but keeping it open, but I haven't really been searching that much.  

Lucas Akai  17:21 

And so I think you've kind of asked this, this other question, you, obviously you envision staying in the field of work that you're doing specifically. But do you find that in the long term future that housing challenges could prevent that? Or is it something that you'd always prioritise as being? 

Lily  17:36 

Um, so I think it's, I don't know, I just plan on living here for a long time or somewhere, that I choose to go that works, right?  

Lucas Akai  17:45 

Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so sticking on, of course, the topic of financing and housing. 

Lucas Akai  17:55 

Do you find that a lot of your financial struggles is as a result of like, as you mentioned, the coping and the drug aspect? Or are there other aspects there that also play a part?  

Lily  18:07 

yeah  

Lucas Akai  18:08 

of course, we've spoken about the collections aspect already but  

Lily  18:12 

I think it's a mix of all of that, yeah, it's a mix of everything like the fact that my rent used to be 750 on the same income so that made things a lot more comfortable and then now my. So, my rent being twice as much, expenses are still about the same like, maybe foods more expensive, but um, yeah, pretty much everything that's leftover like, unfortunately is I don't know. Yeah. I think again, why's, why should split up my checks but and just like to reduce my use more, I was doing a lot better for that again, when we first chatted in September, I was only using about four times a month and I've found things slipping a little more lately, so working on changes. 

Lucas Akai  18:50 

And so do you find outside of course, 'casue you have your rent plan where you're gonna pay it in instalments Have you found that as a result of you know, increased financial stress maybe that your other spending habits have changed or 

Lily  19:05 

Like I said, I find it this weird like circular battle of like, some reason when things are more stressful and things are going wrong. I feel like I ended up using more but that affects the money thing and it's all just like a vicious cycle. So then after a couple days break, I can like see where I want to go again and I try for it but just seems to keep coming back. But I think by splitting up the rent to that also like, like I said it makes sure it's paid. And it gives me like access to less money at a time in terms of the other bit which would make it I think easier to balance everything. Yeah.  

Lucas Akai  19:35 

And so how crucial have you found like the financial support you receive from family to be? I mean, if that was taken away, what happens? 

Lily  19:44 

Yeah, if I didn't have that backbone, I probably could have been homeless again already. There's times where they've helped me out in a pinch when I haven't been able to spend things right and just getting adjusted to all this, so  um, yeah, straight up like, I bet maybe that's a factor in a lot of people being homeless too, is like, did they have anyone to call in for help? Like, if my parents [weren't] here, I didn't have that, like, I don't know, where I would have got that. There are a few times where my mom's like, "you gotta get this figured out," like, you know, "we can't keep doing this" or like, "you can just come home and live for free then," right? Like, no, I'm going back to Ontario. I'm like, you know, that's, that's the thing too, right? So they're like, "well, we're not gonna keep like, you got to figure this out soon, we are gonna, we're here to help you but if it's not working, you can come home for living for free and get a job here." You know, that's there, after quite a while, right? So I'm also mindful of not abusing that privilege and getting it figured out with this kind of payment plan now. 

Lucas Akai  20:30 

Right, right, right. And it is moving to Ontario, something you've considered, or is that kind of off the cards, off the table? 

Lily  20:37 

Not like, just by choice right now, like, I do feel a little bad because my parents are pretty old too, like, my dad's like, 78, my mom's 74. My dad's looking quite old in has head health complications, like, I know, they're only going to be around for over so many years, or whatever. And it makes me a little sad that I don't get to see them as often. The last time I was back, I managed, they've got these new airlines, like the Swoop airline. And it was like discount flight, like straight, direct from Victoria to Toronto too, and normally I have to transfer in Vancouver. And it was $300 for a round trip. Like with Air Canada or WestJet like I used to do that would have been like at least $750, at Christmas would have been like $1100. So to pay $300 for round trip to Toronto and back and there's no money to pay when I get there. I stay with them at their place. They cook dinner like, we might go out for dinner oncee.  

Lily  21:28 

So you know, like, it's kind of on them. It's just like a free vacation to see a best friend there. So I kind of like said like, wow, like that was like, since we found this to be more affordable now. Like, I should try to come more often, like instead of once a year like I normally did. And that's not even with COVID, right? Once you're like I normally did, I was like let's try to make them at least like two or three times. Like I should just save up for that. And just like it's so easy. It's like six to seven hours door to door, you know, like to be able to go home, back and easy for that money. Like yeah, my best friend was like, I'll even throw in $100 bucks, because I want to see you more. So I don't really consider moving back home. But like if there was a point where like, my dad died, and my mom was still there, I probably would because yeah, so I think going back more frequently, so I can just spend more time with them. But if my mom ever needed me like in something like that, like, of course, then I would just go back. 

Lily  21:33 

So this is actually something that, you know, we didn't we didn't really know going in, is how have you found the support with you know, having your family, the family aspect and close friends not being in the same province? How have you found that in terms of working within the peer space here?  

Lily  22:28 

Well, I kind of like hide a lot from my parents too, like, they know it's been like a hard year for me and they know it's been a struggle. But, um, sorry, I just dropped something. I don't really like, like to tell them all the details. Like when I was a teenager, they knew the struggle I went through pretty bad and, but as an adult, like falling back into like, a problem, like, [an] actual problem with drugs. I just don't want them to worry, and they are a bit judgmental towards it. Like they don't really understand, you know, my dad would be like, "Well, if you just made better choices, just stop," right? Like, I think, you know, seeing addiction from the inside out, I don't really believe it's just something you can just choose to stop. Like, I think it's there for a reason. And it's coping and masking some kind of pain, unconsciously, whatever it is, you know.  

Lily  23:13 

When you can list all the reasons why you want to stop and why you don't want to do it and like focus on that and then it somehow just keeps coming back. Like I don't know, it's not, I guess there's still a choice. But it's, I don't know, there's obviously other factors. So I don't think my parents totally get that. And I just don't want them to worry, so in terms of having like, supports here with that, like, the addiction battles, I'm kind of just fought on my own and I'm losing lots of friends and having the odd friend or two that's like supportive, but my friends are also drug users, right? Middle class, housed, employed people that still they have a drug problem, right? So, parents don't really have to deal with that. They still know like, something's kinda been wrong, and we don't talk about it. They still know that I've like, been struggling to something this year. So, it's just kind of unspoken. 

Lucas Akai  24:01 

Right. Right. And so in terms of again, this, like financial and support and these other aspects, have you found that it's been more difficult being in another province, in terms of, you know, support in general or? 

Lily  24:14 

Um, like support from who?  

Lucas Akai  24:17 

Well, say from your family, for example? Or in terms of, you know, being a resident of BC and navigating all of that.  

Lily  24:24 

Yeah. Like I said, I mean, I talk to them on the phone, I don't tell them a lot of the really bad stuff. I just don't access that support from them in that way because I don't want them to see a lot of the problems. So it's mostly been friends and coworkers and my boss and, yeah. 

Lucas Akai  24:41 

What about in terms of accessing, like BC provincial support, like financial support from a provincial standpoint? I mean, you used to live in Ontario, I would imagine, I would assume 

Lily  24:52 

yeah, um I didn't need things like that back then, I guess. Like I access food banks and stuff like that to try to make my food cost cheaper, and I don't know, that's about all the support I've gotten so far, yeah. 

Lucas Akai  25:08 

And so, we've kind of reached the halfway point in terms of interviews, I'm gonna pause the financial and housing aspect for a moment.  

Lily  25:16 

Okay.  

Lucas Akai  25:16 

We've reached the middle point of the interviews. So we just wanted to use the latter half of this interview to kind of go over  

Lily  25:23 

okay 

Lucas Akai  25:23 

what's coming up, and some of the other things that are planned 

Lily  25:28 

okay 

Lucas Akai  25:29 

Because there's quite a bit kind of within these last few that we're going to be conducting, that, you know, we've been trying to give, not necessarily a warning, but like a pre-warning of what's to come 

Lily  25:38 

okay 

Lucas Akai  25:39 

So, So for tomorrow and then into the next week 

Lily  25:44 

yeah 

Lucas Akai  25:44 

is, of course, now we've covered, you know, the financial aspects, the housing aspects of stressors. We've talked quite a lot about, like the respect and recognition at work. And we've, of course, we've done, I mean, we've done the introduction, of course,  

Lucas Akai  25:57 

And so out of those, like the five stressors that we had initially sent to you, the kind of like the last one, which we've been holding off until kind of towards the end here is the exposure to death and trauma stressor.  

Lily  25:57 

yeah  

Lily  26:10 

yeah. Okay.  

Lucas Akai  26:11 

And so that's going to be kind of, we'll take it piece by piece over the next week and a bit.  

Lily  26:15 

Okay. I've seen many death and trauma. I'm  a tough cookie. Yeah. Yeah, I've definitely got some stories to share, for sure.  

Lucas Akai  26:22 

And so, maybe right now, I don't know if you still have the list of questions? I know you've had that list before.  

Lily  26:28 

I'm not sure.  

Lucas Akai  26:29 

No worries, no worries. But if there was  

Lily  26:31 

talked a lot  

Lucas Akai  26:32 

yeah. If there was anything there in particular that you wanted to not discuss or things that you thought needed more detail or clarification  

Lily  26:41 

I can describe all the ways and ways depth has been an experience for me an the opiate crisis and respectfully go through those scenarios if you want to hear and  

Lucas Akai  26:50 

right, right  

Lily  26:50 

Like I said, I've also had [the] opiate crisis affect my direct life when my partner's brother who lived in town here, passed away, home alone in the bathroom of his apartment, and his mother had to find him. And then she called me and [bleeped] to come over and the coroner was there. And I can share that story too, because that one is very real in my personal life. He's, when we were together, we used to go to dinner at his mom's, his brother lived in the same apartment building as her. And his brother was always kind of bit of like, just like solitary being, you know, like, but he like, he's one of the things is like, he spent a lot of time with his mom, like, they did have dinner every week. And, you know, if she couldn't reach something on an upper shelf, she'd call her son, and, you know, he was very much so in her life.  

Lily  27:31 

And when [bleeped] and I would go over there for like, family dinner, it was always the four of us, always the four of us. And after he died, it was just, I can't tell you how painful it is to see a mother's grief over losing the son that she like, loved so much. Like, there's gotta be nothing worse, like she's 72 and she's like, I don't know if she will ever get over that, really, so. So that was just like, you know, at work I see death and things move on and yeah, it can happen again. But this was like, this is something I really witnessed, like directly for a long time and we'd go over for dinner and we always played a board game after hi,s mom loves board games or card games and you know, when you needed opposing teams, there was always four of us and now there's three like, you just feel.  

Lily  28:07 

It's kind of interesting because um, you know, like the there's like the opiate crisis, like kind of, awareness day I was like a couple of months ago by like probably Moms Stop the Harm group their symbol for it is a kitchen chair. It's like painted like this nice lavender purple and like wrapped with a purple ribbon and that chairs supposed to represent, like, the missing seat at the table. Like the person who's missing in that chair at like the kitchen table like at Christmas dinner and all that. So I have a nice really nice picture of that chair. I went to the candlelight vigil that day for the Opiate Awareness [Day] Crisis and because I knew it was like, I went there for, you know, people that I've loved and lost in this community and also stood there like, really feeling like on behalf of their family to know, like, his mom, it's probably too painful for his mum to be here and they had had like little banners out like small little like flags to make like, almost like a prayer flag style.  

Lily  29:01 

And everybody had written or like made art and written the person's name of the person they'd lost. So I was able to add a flag for [bleeped] there and I took some pictures and like, with checking in with them first if something they'd like to see, I was able to share those photos with my ex-partner and, and his mom. 'Cause I'm still in  good contact with them both and just let them know like I was here for you guys and yeah, it was a really powerful remembrance or sorry like, candlelight vigil. They had a local singer here, like, playing acoustic guitar like, and [a] song she had written like for the event. IT was like "holy cow," you're like fighting back tears and, and it's all, it was all lit in Christmas lights already. But the archway, like the archway up the big stairs,  it's like a big arch. They for the event, they lit it with purple lights because purple is the overdose crisis colour, right.  

Lily  29:51 

So it was all lit up and then on the stairs, people had gone and lit individual tea light candles, and they had the purple chair with the ribbon and then the prayer flags lined the length of the stairs. So we added the names one by one by one. And then you could see the length of like, the list of names, right? It was like just really like powerful and touching. And this woman sang some songs. And one that was particularly, the theme was, say my name. So that was like the song she wrote. And they were saying, like, just like remembering to do that. So at the end of it, like, there was a moment of silence, and then they asked everybody to just out loud, at one time, say the name of the person they lost. Everyone was like [bleeped], and everybody said a different name. And it was just. Yeah, it was just like, really a moving thing. I'm glad I, I went to my dog do because it's outside. And it was a small group of people. And I found, I was surprised by the types of people more, like, there was, I'd say, hardly not one single person from the homeless community, not one single person.  

Lily  30:48 

They were all like the families of the people that had been lost and like normal, not normal. I mean, middle class average looking people, like, parents, people that had lost children, and it was very much more of that crowd and, and activists and harm reduction warriors, coworkers and just people from the community there. I find sometimes it's just hard to acknowledge the amount of death and like loss. Like it's easier to just avoid, like you hear about "someone else died. Oh, someone else died, like, Oh," but I didn't think I was gonna go to this event. I think I was kind of in that frame of like, well, love and respect, I'm not gonna go and then like, the last minute, I was like, I'm gonna go. So I walked there with my dog. And I'm like, really glad I did. So yeah, just to be around a bunch of people too and just like, know they were all, and it was it was hard to see the amount of families there crying over loved ones. Anyway, as we get into that territory. Yeah, we've got some really good pictures from that. 

Caitlin Burritt  31:41 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.