Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC.  

Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.  

Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:07 

In this episode, you'll hear Lily talk to Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung about the strain that Winter puts on both peer workers and the people they are supporting. Lily discusses deescalation techniques, stressful situations at work, and the burnout that often accompanies peer work. Lucas and Esther also ask about Lily's work at workshops, where she discusses the importance of harm reduction in healthcare and the stigma that is prevalent in our health and social systems.  

Lucas Akai  02:02 

Here we go. All right, well, well, just.  

Lily  02:06 

Yeah. So, part of deescalation is checking ourselves like, am I able to handle this right now? Is the response I'm giving the person like, the best response? And if I can't right now, so we're talking about today is, go tag out with a team member then. So, a client just told me I don't want to talk to you, go away. Like, I'm not dealing with you, I hate you. You're like, okay, this isn't working. So, I'm gonna go back and tag off with another team member, hey, can you give this a go? It's not working with me. Like, what am I doing that's making the situation better or worse? Like, if we're standing there, like, you know, like, how's that gonna feel? Like, yes, I hear you, I understand it's ways to respond of how we can bring a situation down rather than continue to make it worse. 

Lily  02:53 

And some of the other main things are like, so, saying less. Just listening. Don't make it a back and forth argument. If people are just need to rant and just let it out, like, we don't need to get into the facts. Just listen, agree as much as possible, and validate the emotion. So, that sounds frustrating. You must be frustrated that you've been waiting this long for a nurse. Not like, well, be patient, you know? Really practicing the right ways to respond to help a situation.  

Lily  03:25 

We're really trying to practice, okay, like, tell your team like, hey, I need to go out back for five minutes. I need to ground myself. So we need to be professionals enough to show up.  

Lucas Akai  03:36 

Right, right.  

Lily  03:37 

And take like, like, be aware of your own emotional temperature, basically. To know that, yes, I'm in an appropriate place to respond to this person in crisis or having a freakout. Or we have a team, we're not here alone, use each other.  

Lily  03:54 

At the start of the day, we also tend to just check in with each other right off the bat, like how's everyone doing today? Like, where are you at? Like, how are you? Yeah, I got a great sleep and I can handle anything today. Or are you like, no, actually, I'm going through this thing. I'm kind of rundown. We try to identify that at the beginning. So that when things do happen, we're aware of who may be the best person to be handling something is. We do it for any emergency. So that goes for overdose response and also behavioral, like behavioral issues or crises, just identifying where the team is at and who feels how they have the capacity to do what today. 

Lucas Akai  04:32 

And so are these like, really supportive measures in these workshops? Is this something put on by the clinic or is this like another organization that comes in or? 

Lily  04:40 

Yeah, we're not encouraging drug use. It's just that if they're going to do the street dope, anyway, here come in, and let me give you something safe and controlled. So they have pushed through with Health Canada, with the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, they've had to show why safe supply is valuable. Then when the overdose crisis started, safe consumption sites and overdose prevention sites became a norm. Because doing it in a monitored setting, nobody has ever died in the OPS, right? So, those things are kind of like, accepted normal things in harm reduction.  

Lily  04:40 

Now, safe supply is the newest addition to all of this, that some people are still trying to get their heads around, right? So, where I work is technically a research project, that we have to prove our statistics of benefit. So, from a clinical perspective, they're showing why this is saving lives, and helping people enough to continue to get our funding year by year through Health Canada and the federal or provincial Ministry of Mental Health and Addictions.  

Michelle M  04:40 

Um, we're doing a workshop- two workshops in December and it's run- it's going to be run by our original clinical nurse lead. He's an incredible, incredible nurse like, I had the honor of working with him. I learned a lot from him. Had just like, really had respect for his ways of working because without nurses like him, we wouldn't even have safe supply to begin with. They were the people that advocated for...yes, like, medically, this is going to help save lives. This is going to help people. This is why safe supply is a good thing. If you're going to do it anyway, how can we make it safer? How can we prevent the toxic street drugs from killing people? 

Lucas Akai  06:28 

But I'd imagine that every time you put forward your data, and then it gets approved to be continued that it helps with combating the burnout on your guys's end. I mean, it must be reassuring. 

Michelle M  06:40 

Yeah, yeah. Like we've always kind of passed with flying colors.  

Lucas Akai  06:43 

And so, maybe going back to like the burnout, and the support you receive within like, the clinic and with your fellow colleagues, do you find that the support being provided is adequate? Or are there areas where you think that there needs to be more done? Or just overall with, like, the peer workers in general? 

Michelle M  07:05 

With burnout and stuff? 

Lucas Akai  07:08 

With burnout, yeah. 

Michelle M  07:10 

Um, well, where I work, now, it's like a really small team. Like, I work in a clinic where there's generally four or five of us on shift every day, nine to five. That's really different from when I worked 250 on staff, you know, like multiple buildings running 24/7, twelve hour shifts, like, I think I was saying, it's been a lot better for me working nine to five versus back to back twelves. And like, nights and going back and forth.  

Lily  07:36 

Like, I think there's something to say about the strain of work. Like, it's like, man, maybe if they made those shifts eight hours, maybe people wouldn't burn out as much, I don't know. But um, in that line of work, I saw less being done to help burnout and more people being burned out.  

Lily  07:55 

For both the type of work you're doing in housing, which is much harder and way more problems then we see on an average day. And the length of the shifts too, I think that you're constantly doing stuff like, in there, like physically, mentally, emotionally, in all aspects. And then when you barely get to catch like, six hours sleep between shifts, like, how does that help? You come back, like for me, a lot of the times I got rundown, and when I eventually needed to take a leave was, I was just too tired. Like, it would lead me to show up late, which got me write ups. And when you're tired and under slept, might lead to coping more on unhealthy things.  

Lily  08:33 

And I was just gonna say something. Not having the same emotional capacity. So, if someone comes at you freaking out, like, how can you better handle yourself if you're not at your best? So like, it wasn't the job stress necessarily. For me, it was how did I take care of myself in my home life that would help me show up to work at my best. And this job, it's a lot easier to do that.  

Lucas Akai  09:02 

Right. Right.  

Lily  09:03 

Mainly because of the shorter shifts, smaller team, like, it's just less of a chaotic environment, because we're servicing maybe 25 people a day. Not a building of a lot more chaos and there's bigger- way bigger power differential there. So, it led to a lot more like retaliation from residents to staff.  

Lucas Akai  09:22 

Right, right.  

Lily  09:24 

Just like you know, it was like oh, the evil staff you know, like whereas where I work now, it's a lot more respect and understanding that like, hey, like we've been where you are, like, just way more on their level and not- just wasn't as much of a power. What do you call it? Power structure?  

Lucas Akai  09:41 

Right, right.   

Lily  09:41 

Power dynamic. 

Lucas Akai  09:43 

Not all the employees would have been peers then, I suppose.  

Lily  09:46 

No, no, no. They hire all walks of life. Some people have never done drugs in their life that work there. Some people have just a lot of education. Some people have just life experience. They except both, there's no like minimum requirement.  

Lily  10:03 

I found, I find I benefit how I show up at work because I have both a lot of university experience in psychology and therapy. I've got the best of both worlds being, I get it from the inside out. But I'm also very educated and have a lot of experience. So I think that benefits me. You see both ways how it can go, pros or cons. 

Lily  10:28 

But for the most part, people of our community relate more to folks that have been through it themselves a bit, not like oh, like who's this person like? Like, it's just in their world, there's so much stigma and judgment and misunderstanding from the rest of the world, right? Of people who are homeless, people who use drugs, like, we even see they get mistreated at hospitals, even like, just kicked out the door, like not heard, like, the community like, well, why don't they just get a job? Or like, you know, get off drugs? It's like, I don't think people realize it's not- it's not always a choice.  

Lily  11:07 

Oh, well, maybe if they made better decisions in life, it's like, tell that to like, the 21 year old indigenous sex worker that she should have made better choices being raised by, like in a, like, perpetual world of trauma and generational trauma. And parents who are heroin addicts. Like, how could you expect anybody born into poverty and addiction, and trauma to then- it'd be a miracle if they came out like, a normal human, you know what I mean? Like, people are doing the best they can in very hard and painful circumstances. And I don't think a lot of the regular world really understands that, you know. It's just like, they could just get out of this if they wanted. And it's not that easy. 

Lucas Akai  11:50 

And so that stigma that you mentioned, that, you know, these individuals faces, that's something that don't necessarily say, trickle up towards the peer workers, but like, does it spread toward the peers as well? In the way that your own work is viewed outside of like, the industry, so to speak? Like? 

Michelle M  12:09 

Yes, and no. I mean, my life is kind of surrounded by harm reduction people. So I mean, yeah, I guess like, I don't have a ton of interaction with people that like, you know, my friends are all younger people are tend to be more on board, my coworkers, and people in the field are, of course, on board.  

Lily  12:27 

And, but then there's people like, you know, like my parents who, my mom's come a long way on kind of understanding the work I do and why and how that's of benefit. Very much with harm reduction, with safe consumption sites, with all that. But then with safe supply, I've been trying to get her to understand this new thing, right? And she's like, ooh, like, not really sure how giving them fentanyl is helping, right? And there is like, she's not like, she wants to learn and understand. But like, yeah, it's just like, to some people who are- this isn't their day to day life that they see, it's maybe not as like clear or obvious, you know. [But] I don't know, do some research. I forget the original question. 

Lucas Akai  13:14 

So then, it would be fair to say then that that type of stigma, around safer supply and so forth, is a generational thing, so to speak, or is it kind of just a-? 

Michelle M  13:27 

I'd imagine. I mean, I'm sure there's still people my age that maybe feel the same way, but I think just like how you see the world changing in terms of like being more acceptance-acceptant of like, homosexuality, and the younger generation is more easily moving towards these generational changes. Like, smoking pot is normal. Like, it's okay to be gay, like, no, harm reduction is part of health care and is a benefit to people that use drugs and can't stop the world from using drugs.  

Lily  14:05 

The world forgets too, that alcohol is a terrible drug, like, you know, it's...I remember in the summer, was like festival events in the summer, right? And they had one weekend, that was Beer Fest. And it's like, all these different tents set up all of these different craft breweries, and people buy tickets to go to all the tastings. And it's like, come on, like how was this not like drugs fest? You know, like, give me a break. Like, right, tell me this isn't the same as a supervised consumption site, but it's like socially acceptable. You know, I don't know.  

Lily  14:38 

There's definitely a stigma and judgment around the different things. I mean, just like I guess marijuana was more too, before it became legalized, but I don't know it's kind of weird with alcohol, right? Alcohol used to be really illegal too.. But yeah, I mean, all kinds of drugs have gone through changes like that, like MDMA was legal originally for use in therapeutic medicine back in the 80s until it got into the hands of the wrong people or ravers and they blew it. But it was originally meant to be a therapy tool. And now we're seeing that kind of come back a bit like, everything-It's not cut and dry everything ,right? Like, just because it's illegal right now doesn't mean that it's like a bad thing.  

Lily  15:21 

I don't know, seeing opiate users is definitely a horrible curse. I wouldn't wish it upon anybody, that's for sure. And I don't think a lot of them are like, oh, yeah, just choose to be this way. I could just stop tomorrow, if I wanted, like, look at all the barriers to people getting better. Like, if you got $20,000 a month, you could go to rehab. Like, it's just not accessible. Like, where can the homeless people go to get clean? I don't know. Wait two months in line to get a spot a detox and get a week and then you're out in the cold again, like, there is no affordable rehab. Really sad.  

Lily  15:58 

And housing is such a big part of it as well. Like, how can you even think about getting your life better when you're sleeping in a tent in the winter? Like, there's what we call the housing first model, is that like, you need to have these basic needs met first before you can think about what's next. Soon as you get somebody housing and food and taken care of, and you get these things more stabilized, that's when we- we see in our work too, even by giving them the safe supply drugs, it's like, let me just provide a little bit of stability, which will help keep you unsick.  

Lily  16:30 

Without that, it's like the people are- what do I gotta do to make that 10 bucks just to get my dope, just to get undope sick. Just have to do it again, right? Like go bottling, do sex work, steal things to resell them, crime, hustling, theft, like all of the damaging harmful things and the struggle to just stay addicted and also fight the horridity that is dope sickness. It's like a really, really, super unpleasant sickness for people. And we're just like, here, let me- let me just help you for a minute.  

Lily  17:06 

If you're gonna do it anyway, how can we make it safer and easier? And you don't risk dying off the street drugs that are toxic and uncontrolled amounts like, fentanyl can go from 2% concentration and dope up to 30. We saw and 50% this week. If they didn't get that tested, and they did that alone, they could have died, right? But because they got tested, the drug checkers, they now know oh, gosh, that dope was five times stronger than my last time I bought on the street. So therefore, I'm going to do a fifth as less, like, we don't have that problem, because we're giving pharmaceutical, clean, safe, measured product in a controlled indoor safe environment with a nurse's monitoring.  

Lily  17:45 

Like, if they're gonna do the drugs anyway, let's just keep them alive and keep them safer. So, that that also reduces the fight or flight panic response of just scrambling to get the money to sustain. And it gives them the breathing room to think about what else is next once you give them that bit of stability. Okay, well, I'm good now like, now I have the time in my life to think about like, you know what, maybe I want to go to detox. Or, maybe I'm ready to talk about housing options, like, how can you do that when you're just trying to pick up on a cans in the day to make the money you need? Like. 

Lucas Akai  18:19 

Right.   

Lily  18:20 

So, it's providing stability and relief to that ongoing struggle. 

Lucas Akai  18:26 

When we're talking about like the stigma that these individuals either feel, or is in the media, or however it's presented. Have you found that that gets in the way of their usage of these like safer sites or the drug checkers? Or has that largely been defeated and put to the side. 

Lily  18:45 

That, I find the community knows that these are safe, trusted places they can come where they are accepted, where like, it's normal to be how they are, there's no judgment, there's no disrespect. We welcome people with open arms and just give them whatever love and support we can give them that day. Like, oh, we got some extra soup, would you like me to warm you up some? So I'm like, here, let's hang up your wet jacket so it can dry while you're here.  

Lily  19:08 

Like, we just- this is the safe community that can come to that they avoid the rest of the world, because that's why the area of homeless people tends to be a very enclosed, they call it the block. Because this is the place where they're allowed to be who they are. If they were all scattered all over the place, like, there's less safety, they you know, they- they form a community basically. And where I work, and our neighboring organizations, are part of the reason that we provide services that are there for them, in support of them with no judgement. So, we are a safe place to come. So, no stigma, no stigma. 

Lucas Akai  19:50 

That's good. So, but staying on the topic of stigma, though, when you present your own work, right, your own occupation, do you find that like, you know, oh, you work in, you know, the opioid crisis? Is there a stigma there when you, you know, just in a day to day manner? 

Michelle M  20:10 

Well, that's what I said, like the amount of other people I interact with that are very far from that is kind of slim, because I work Monday to Friday, nine to five. All day at work, I'm interacting with people exactly on board. Most of my friends are on board, because, as a drug user myself, some of my friends also like we might do some stuff together, right? And so they're on board with harm reduction, of course, and I find there's, there's less like other people, unless it's like some random person you're talking to in line for a coffee. It's like, oh, where do you work, you know, like, small talk, like, and even then, like, I've never had anybody be rude or perturbed, but maybe curious. But, it just- I feel like I don't have- it doesn't happen too often.  

Lily  20:55 

I see the articles like, oh, people sleeping in tents down here, or oh, this drug addict got stabbed or whatever it is, like, you see the comment threads on like Facebook. And that's kind of where you see people's true colors, which is mostly a lot of negative stuff, right? Like, all, maybe if they just thought a job or something, right? Like, it's like, wow, this is really hold like a lot of people feel and I guess on the internet.  

Lily  21:22 

Yeah, there's a lot of harsh people out there. But then there's  kind people too. We have people come by and oh, hey, I just have all this donation of hats and mittens like, I'd like to donate. Like, there are good people in the world too, that care and give back and understand this is not the way people want to be like, choosing to be homeless, struggling drug addicts, somehow. Whatever happened in their life, they- this is what's happened. And I don't know. It's not a lot of people I see that are enjoying it. A lot of them are like, it's- it's a horrific nightmare they can't escape from. 

Lucas Akai  22:02 

So, you referenced like, the online stigma, like the media, whether that's through media or social media, or like news media, as well. Is there ever a concern that that like, that type of like, I wouldn't necessarily say like higher level stigma, but like, that more widespread stigma certainly has, like, the ability to reach wider out, will affect the work that you guys are able to do within the peers or?  

Lily  22:26 

Um, I don't think so. I mean, a lot of our functioning comes more from like political and governmental things, right? Like, if we switch to a Conservative government or something like, will we keep running? I don't know. So, you know, a lot of it depends more on the higher up policymakers than it does on public opinion, I think.  

Lily  22:49 

But then again, public opinion is what chooses the government. So, but I don't think we're really moving backwards too far from where we've come. If anything, there's just more to do, because like, we've seen the overdose crisis just getting worse, and the numbers getting worse, and the government needing to do more than it's already doing, like, say we had, like 20 times as many safe supplies. Like, we can only serve so many people. We have people on waiting lists forever that want to access our services that can't because we only have so much space, we only have so many staff on shift, like, we have a capacity of what we can handle in a clinic, you know, like, it's not that big.  

Lily  23:29 

You can only even have eight people inside at one time. We may have a long list of participants, but oh, sorry, guys, we're at capacity. We need people that are done to move out somewhere, people couldn't come in, and like, we can't service all the people that would benefit from this. So, I think that's where, you know, the government could be doing more. Like, take a look at what we've been doing, seeing that's been going well and keep opening more places like, I think like, Ontario is getting some safe supply clinics going now. And we just need this to become more of an accepted norm. 

Lucas Akai  23:59 

And so maybe moving on to more about like the government and so forth, and you mentioned that the funding is determined on like a, you know, check in basis in terms of, you have to put forward the data and then they approve, you know, the continuation of the project. So, is there ever long term concerns regarding financial security for the peers and like when the overdose crisis winds down is there like, are there- is that ever a concern? 

Michelle M  24:27 

Well, it might, but we still have people like, I don't know like, when would the drug supply not be toxic like it is? Like, that's when we need like legalization, right? Like, maybe it'll even out and they'll stop putting lethal amounts of carfentanil and cutting all the dope with benzos and like, it's just uncontrolled disaster. I can't remember where we were going. 

Lucas Akai  24:54 

The financial security.  

Michelle M  24:57 

Well, if anything, we just need to get bigger and more, right? More space, more staff, more nurses or more clinics, and we can just help more people. It would be a travesty if it went the other way. But it doesn't seem like that's the way we're heading, like, the government's doing what they can too, so. Not enough, but to help the overdose crisis, right? 

Esther Cheung  25:20 

But the the financial insecurity aspects of it, I like, are you? Yeah, like, I'm curious, then how could you say more about how the whole process works? Because you've been here for a couple years.  

Lily  25:33 

We're more of a trial. But always been given the thumbs up, and we're always able to prove positive statistics. So to me, it's just not like it hasn't been a thought or stress to be like, oh, we're gonna get shut down. Like, I'd be really surprised if that happened. So I don't really worry about that financial strain at all. 

Esther Cheung  25:56 

I'm curious what the proof- like, have you guys prove to the government what exactly are you [indiscernable] as as proof? 

Lily  26:06 

I don't know all of what it is, because this is coming from like our upper managers and our clinical nurse lead. But I helped do a lot of the surveys with the participants themselves, which is showing the benefits that are getting.  

Lily  26:20 

So, a lot of it's coming through- we survey the participants in like August, September, and we're asking things like, because you're accessing, like, because of the safe supply of drugs you're getting, how has it improved? Has it improved the following for you? And then the first section was like, has it improved, like your substance use? So, it'd be like, has it reduced your- if I had this infront of me it would be easier! Like, has it reduced your use of street drugs? Has it helps reduce cravings? Has it helped manage withdrawal symptoms? Has it-have you gained more access to healthcare to get wounds taken care of like abscess wounds from IV injection? Have you like questions like that?  

Lily  27:02 

So they're saying yes, no, yes, no. And then we're able to gather all of that and say, 76% of participant report decreased use of street drugs, which leads to less overdoses. Like, so there's a couple of sections of yes nos. And then there's some more qualitative questions as well.  

Lily  27:20 

Like, what other benefits do you see from the program? Like, oh, well, the staff are really good, or I like getting snacks. And the last section is, what are ways you could see us doing better, like, what are the areas we can improve in? And that's where we actually want to put a lot of things out that would... the funders can see, and then help us make bigger and better like, a lot of folks say, well, I wish you were open 24/7, not nine to five, like I sleep in, and I don't get here 'til late. So maybe I only get two out of four doses. So reasonably, you have to get to the clinic, spend your day there. But if you come too late, you're not going to get the full amount of medications.  

Lily  27:57 

And then also, because we're done giving people beds at 4:30. Well, say they don't have street dope, they don't have money, well, now they have to go all night 'til we open again, until they can they know they can give another dose. So, a lot of people are having withdrawal than overnight and waking up or just sick, right? Where are we going with this?  

Lily  28:18 

Yeah, so proving to our funders, like, if more clients are saying, like, I'd really love to be able to have- be safely able to carry my medication, so I could use it overnight. Or, I'd like to see it be open at night so that I have a safe place to access medication. Then we're showing the benefits of like 80% of people had wounds healed due to the nursing care, 90% of people had reduced cravings, like we're showing all the benefits other than showing the ways we want to get bigger and better.  

Lily  28:46 

And then that's a lot- that's, that's what I'm aware of is sent to the funders, but I'm sure there's a whole lot of other stuff too. Especially from the clinical nurse end that I haven't really seen the whole package, you know, they send to the federal and provincial governments, that's a bit over my paygrade. But, I was the one interviewing a lot of our participants, with the surveys that we use directly for that, and it's like, really nice to hear that stuff, too. Like, you know, like we've had someone tell us like, this is the only place I feel like I'm at home, where I feel safe to come in and accepted. And, you know, you guys just take care of me here. Sometimes I come here just for a hug, you know, like we hear a lot of really sweet things from our people.  

Lily  29:30 

And, you know, like, they're like, of course they have bad days and other days. They're like, we love you guys. Like we know you care about us. Right? So, it was like, it was touching to do some of that and therapeutically beneficial for the client too. Like, as somebody with therapy training like, I kind of used those surveys not just as a like okay, let's answer these questions, more of a like, more of a check in and reflection to the client to like, oh, wow, like, you find that coming here, like look at all these benefits it has provided.  

Lily  29:46 

Like, you know, just like reflecting to them, how it's helping their life and just to be able to share that and- and hearing from them to like, the clinic opened on the premise of there's this motto called nothing for us without us, if you've heard that? And that's basically saying, like, don't have somebody that knows nothing about drugs and someone totally not from this land come in and tell me what's what and how I'm going to do better with my life. 

Lily  30:31 

We believe that people who use drugs know best about what they need. So we really tried to make the clinic on opening, like, okay, tell us what works for you guys, tell us what doesn't like, let's have monthly check ins as feedback. Like, you know, like, what works for you and what doesn't, because this clinic is for you, not for us to be like, I know how to fix you and cure you. It's like, no, like, you know what's best for you and what works and what doesn't. So, we really rely on that response. And just like mutual- mutual, like common level, not power hierarchy, common gound of how to make the clinic a safe space and how to, how to run it, basically.  

Esther Cheung  31:15 

Yeah. 

Lily  31:15 

In collaboration, [indiscernable] collaboration with the folks who are accessing services. 

Esther Cheung  31:21 

I've actually never heard that. I've heard the nothing about us without us, which is what I hear a lot in journalism. But. 

Lily  31:27 

Oh, really?  

Esther Cheung  31:28 

Yeah. But I haven't heard of that. Nothing. Yeah. 

Lily  31:31 

Well, that's also [indiscenrable] to the street community and drug use community. And, again, something I didn't see as much of in [bleeped]. It like, there was a lot more like, boundaries we had just- like boundaries are a thing you have to be aware of, and work with in this work all the time. But it was like really rule enforcing sometimes I found. And like, oh, like, you didn't do this, therefore, you're barred for a week or like, you know, there's just a lot more like expectations and consequences. And like, an us versus them thing. For us to keep people in line more like, we're not a correctional facility, you know? This is people's home. But at the same time, it also needs to be safe. Can't let people just do whatever they want. 

Lily  32:15 

Like, I mean, we're working with people that are connected to gangs and like, all kinds of dangerous things too, right? Like, there's safety and there's boundaries. And then there's like, control and... I don't know. Yeah, it wasn't as much like, hey, tell us what's working for you. It's like, these are the rules, and I need you to follow them in housing, right? Where we work, it's more like, okay, this isn't working, like, let's talk about how it could go better. More of a mutual conversation rather than a- follow these rules, or else this will happen. You know? Like, consequences to not following enforcement, if that makes sense.  

Esther Cheung  32:53 

Yeah, that makes sense. 

Caitlin Burritt  32:54 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.