Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC.  

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.  

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.  

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung interview Lily for the first time. Lily introduces herself and talks about her previous work in Supportive Housing and her current work at a Safer Supply clinic. She also discusses her personal experiences with substance use and the destabilizing effects of a time period where she was unhoused.  

Lily  01:58 

I think I'm a pretty good fit with all the- just the topic. It's been my full time work for 6 or 7 years now.  

Lucas Akai  02:05 

Oh, wow!  

Lily  02:06 

And I've seen it all. More than I wish to have seen...and yeah, I've had my own struggles as well. So. 

Esther Cheung  02:14 

Great. All right. Well, tell us about yourself. Like how did you get into peer work maybe. 

Lily  02:21 

Um, well, where I was living before, I've been in [bleeped] for six years now. And then before that I was in [bleeped], B.C, and working as a like, like a home support care worker, making way less money. And so I enjoyed it at the time, I did my post grad there in art therapy. But then I just kind of outgrew [bleeped]. I'd been there long time kind of done it all and wasn't finding the kind of jobs I wanted.  

Lily  02:54 

And so I chose to move mainly for like, a change of jobs. And I've always wanted to work in like the addictions population, probably because I've had drug use experience myself since I was 14. So I just feel like I like, relate to that population, but there wasn't much in [bleeped]. So I moved to [bleeped] and I started working at [bleeped] like, housing.  

Lily  03:19 

And it was really in the very start of the overdose crisis, I'd say. We were doing about four ODs a day on shift. Like, all the time, it was very routine to be doing them. I've probably responded to at least five or 600 overdoses in my time. I've seen people die at my own hand, I've discovered dead bodies in the rooms we've, you know, all the horrors. And had one or two personal like family connections with overdose deaths as well. 

Lily  03:51 

So yeah, I just kind of jumped into that work because I moved to a different city where there was more options, and I'm still doing it and loving it. And now I'm at a different organization working in safe supply. So I work at a clinic where we provide fentanyl patches and injectable fentanyl from our nurses and doctors.  

Lily  04:12 

And it's nice now to kind of be a part of like some change, not just seeing like the downfall all the time not just seeing all- because in housing we're not there to fix or change we're just there to support people where they're at, which a lot of the time you don't see people getting better, it's not...you know if they asked for help we'll give it to them, but you know if they're just- we're supporting them to live their lives.  

Lily  04:36 

So, it's nice now where I see people like recovering and stabilizing and like, through safe supply it gives them... takes away that fight or flight edge. Of just like, what have I got to do to get that money I need to get un-dope sick like, which a lot of the time is crime or bottling or hustling or sex work. All the struggle they do just to get that money just to go through the cycle again. 

Lily  04:58 

So, we just- It's nice to see us supporting and stabilizing people and just the benefits that it can bring. So, happy to work in that frontline work now.  

Esther Cheung  05:10 

That's great. I'm glad you love your job. 

Lily  05:12 

I do! 

Lily  05:13 

I started a year ago at [bleeped] which runs the [bleeped] clinic. I've now quit [bleeped] as of the summer. And my role started as just a casual support worker, and I've moved to the team lead of the support workers as of two months ago. 

Esther Cheung  05:13 

How do you find, I guess what's- what's your- what's your role in safe apply right now? Exactly. 

Esther Cheung  05:39 

Congrats, that's amazing. And for safe supply, could you maybe like, walk us through what a typical day would look like for you?  

Lily  05:48 

Okay. Um, well, it was, it's a lot nicer, I work eight hour days instead of 12. But you know, that you see at the housing buildings. 

Esther Cheung  05:55 

Okay. 

Lily  05:55 

So, Monday to Friday, 9:15 to 5:15. Our clinic is open for participants from 9:30 to 4:30. And we see the same folks every day that- we're closed for new intakes, we're at capacity. 

Lily  06:10 

So, we see folks coming in, regular folks come in for basically- the support workers triage the needs of clients. We have two nurses and two support workers on shift with doctors that come in twice a week. So we're like assigning the booth space on the need of the order of who's arriving. And who needs a dose. 

Lily  06:32 

People can get if they're on the injectable fentanyl program, they can have up to four doses a day with an hour apart. So we're tracking the times they finish their meds when they can get their next one. There's also oral [fentantyl] people come in for twice a day. Or the fentanyl patch, which is changed every three days.  

Lily  06:53 

So, we just kind of greet people as they come in, offer them drinks and snacks, give them a booth, clean the booths in between uses. And just like manage the flow of participants, manage any behavioral things that come about. Sometimes we're dealing with folks in psychosis. But for the most part, our folks are pretty friendly and polite for this community and well stabilized.  

Lily  07:15 

And then at the end of the day, we're just getting people out the door by 4:30. And then closing and cleaning up the clinic. 

Esther Cheung  07:21 

Cool.  

Lily  07:22 

And sometimes we have like, sometimes when they're in between doses, we might do some art with them or just chat and check in. We have another crew of folks that work called systems navigators. And they're doing things like helping people with taxes or getting their ID, taking them to appointments. So they're kind of helping people get the applications and things done they need to support them. 

Lily  07:47 

And as team lead, I manage the schedule and checking off people work their shifts for payroll, and just being a leader to the new folks. And that's about it.  

Esther Cheung  07:55 

Yeah, I guess with your work, what population do you normally see on a day to day basis? And like, because you say you work with the same community every day?  

Esther Cheung  08:04 

Well, 

Lily  08:04 

Well, they're like, the community would be like the homeless community, but many of our folks are housed now. Mainly due to I'm helping them or like, like I said, the stability that the clinic provides.  

Esther Cheung  08:14 

Yeah. 

Lily  08:16 

Has like, led to a lot of people becoming stabilized in life, and then getting housing and going back to work and stuff like that.  

08:23 

Yeah, 

Esther Cheung  08:23 

Yeah, that's great. Do you find that is the community different between your work before in public housing versus now?  

Lily  08:32 

Um, it's the same folks. But there's a lot more like respect between participants and staff. Like when I worked in housing, it's very like us in them. It's not as much the people for the people. It felt like there was a bit of a power hierarchy and takes a while to build the trust. I think I ended up doing pretty good with that, like building relationships with people, mainly because I was there so long, so I stuck it out. And they knew I could be trusted. 

Lily  09:00 

And also because I'd always been real with the folks and been like, I've had drug problems, too. Thank God, I've never gotten to opiates, I count my blessings on that every day. But um, people just like, trust you more when you're like, okay, like, I got it like, you've been there too.  

Lily  09:16 

I was also without housing for eight months last year due to the housing crisis, and renevictions. So I've had a little glimpse of what it's like to be unhoused, I felt privileged to have a car. But I was really just like, threw off my whole life. It wasn't realized how much benefit you get from having a stable home. 

Esther Cheung  09:36 

 Yeah. 

Lily  09:36 

 And how destabilizing it is when you don't. So.  

Lily  09:39 

Um, yeah, so I lived in the same basement suite for five and a half years. And then the landlords lived above me, and they had a second child and then I got an eviction for them wanting to overtake the whole house for themselves. So that's why I had two months notice and I just was not able to find a place. I had to move out and I moved all my belongings into storage.  

Lily  10:01 

And then was living in like my camper van and a parking lot. And I was kind of mid on a stress leave. I was on like EI- medical EI stress leave from work at the time because I was already... yeah, like I did really good at work for the first couple years I worked there and then began to have a drug problem catch up with me that I didn't even see coming. 

Esther Cheung  10:01 

Yeah.  

Lily  10:07 

I was like, not a daily user. For a long time, I would just like party at festivals in the summer. And that was it, but got linked into a friend circle that was just offering a lot of free stuff. And kind of like before I knew it, I was having a daily problem. And it was starting to affect me at work with the 12 hour shifts, like showing up late or sleeping through my alarms, and just not being able to have the same emotional capacity, because I was like rundown. 

Lily  10:59 

So, I was on my first like medical leave from work ever, mainly due to those struggles. And then I lost my housing and things just got worse for a while. It was hard to work to because I had a dog and wasn't able to work 12 hour shifts. So I was doing mainly Skip the Dishes, in addition to my EI income, because I could drive around with my dog while homeless. And yeah, it really wasn't 'til I got my housing again, that things started to look better. And I started seeing a doctor for my addictions problems, which really helped me link into care I really need and that was last Spring and doing a lot better these days.  

Esther Cheung  11:43 

Good to hear.  

Lily  11:43 

Still dabbling, but I have like way more control over it. I'm not like being led by its leash on a daily use.  

Esther Cheung  11:51 

Yeah.  

Lily  11:53 

Probably cut down to a couple times a month. 

Esther Cheung  11:55 

Got it. Would do you say it impacts the work you do now?  

Lily  11:58 

Um, yeah, mainly in a way that I'm like depleted and can't function like, because I use stimulants. And it'll lead to like, no sleep and no eating. And then you do that on a work night, okay, now you've been up all night. And you're like strung out and coming down and trying to show up for work. And work is just not fun and not, sometimes it was not possible. 

Lily  12:21 

So, I have to be really mindful of if I am going to use trying to have the self control for it to be on a weekend or something. And it's not even like an enjoyable thing. It's just something that comes around sometimes that I give into and doesn't really do good things for me. It gives me brutal anxiety and takes money that I don't have. And just like, yeah, gets you run down and just do my best to have it not impact my work. And I've been doing really good at that.  

Lily  12:48 

So yeah, that I have good control over it, which is, most of the time possible right now. My work right now is like really also kind of understanding they, like, [bleeped] was way better than [bleeped] was in terms of like, caring about their staff just as much as participants and not like, holding judgment. They're just supportive of their staff like, and they care from a genuine point of view, and will give you the same supports. 

Lily  13:17 

Whereas at [bleeped], it was more like, well, like you're not fit to work or like it was more of like behavioral punishment, like you're late and you know, just less understanding and less support, I just ended up having to take time off instead of someone like working with me where I was at.  

Lily  13:34 

So I really like my new job right now. It just really feels like the staff, know and understand from the inside out more, and that it's okay. It's not like something to be ashamed of. And if you need help, it's like totally okay to like talk openly with your boss about it. And, you know, back at, like my worst, they would like, give me like grocery gift cards, like just to help me out and, you know, just never made me feel bad about needing to take time off or something for it and just wanting to do what they could to support me and help things get better.  

Esther Cheung  14:03 

Yeah. 

Esther Cheung  14:03 

Do you find you have a community there at [bleeped]? 

Lily  14:08 

Yeah, I mean, my my friend circle has gotten a lot smaller these days, which is also for the best, like, they're, you know, some of the influence, but my coworkers are the best I've ever had here at [bleeped].  Like, I just love going to work. So that's good. Succeeding, other than not needing to take leaves anymore, and all that so.  

Lucas Akai  14:29 

When did you start working with [bleeped] and then when did you start working with [bleeped]? 

Lily  14:33 

That would have been six, six years ago, when I moved to [bleeped] I got the job right away. And then I quit this summer, but I started at [bleeped] a year ago and still had [bleeped] background a bit but um, it was really feeling like my time was kind of done there and after some leaves and like, we left on good terms, but just way happier with where I'm at now and yeah. 

Esther Cheung  15:01 

You talked about some of the drug use and the being unhoused, like destabilized or influencing your work, I wonder how has your work influenced your personal life or the other way around? 

Lily  15:13 

Um, in regards to like drug use, or?  

Esther Cheung  15:16 

Both, either, anything.  

Lily  15:17 

Um, I've always been like, somebody that has thrived at work or at school, I'd never in my life needed to take time off until when that kind of started a few years ago. Before that, I've done like six years of university and always maintained a full time job, I never struggled to be not anything but like the rock star at my job or school all the time until this habit caught up with me that I didn't see coming or, you know, know, kind of what the effects could be over time. 

Lily  15:51 

And thankfully, like, even though I work with drug users, I've never found my work to be triggering, because I don't do those drugs. It's like a very different scene, like people injecting and doing down and smoking side. Like, it's just, that's not been my thing. So I don't find it triggering. I still kind of feel like, sometimes I'm just, you know, we go home and go to work. It's all a lot of like this drug culture. But I do feel like I'm good at work, because I can, like, understand and just share personal experience and be real and down to earth with people and not be like, kind of other to them. So it just helps build a relationship and trust. 

Esther Cheung  16:32 

Yeah, I guess. I don't know, what what's the best parts of your job? You seem to like a lot. 

Lily  16:38 

I'm seeing the same folks every day. And the fact that oh, yeah, I was kind of saying before, they're like a different, like, they have a lot more respect for the staff. And they're kind and they follow the rules. And they're respectful. There's the odd blow up, of course, but in the housing units, it was really different. It was like the us and them and they would take their anger out on us or like throw a bowl of cereal through the office window, you know, like, we dealt with a lot more retaliation and screaming and yelling and like abuse in that way, which was a normal part of the job. But it's nice now that it's different.  

Lily  17:14 

They like, people appreciate that they're getting safe supply from us. They're grateful. They know that that's not, not everybody can get that. It's a closed program, we're at capacity. When it works for them, they're- they're one of the lucky people that are able to have got in the program, you know. 

Esther Cheung  17:32 

Yeah.  

Lily  17:33 

So we just see a lot more kindness, and I love my coworkers. It's always just great and good conversation.  

Lily  17:39 

And the job itself is just, like an easier day than what I was used to like, you stayed your 12 hour shifts in a building of 150 people. You know, it was five storeys tall. The building was the length of a city block. Like, we're just walking miles and miles doing all this horrendous cleaning, and a really, like tiresome, taxing job. Whereas now I work in like a medical clinic that looks like a four booth safe consumption site, but we're the ones giving the medications. So it's just less exhausting.  

Esther Cheung  18:11 

Yeah. 

Lily  18:12 

But I find the eight hour days are better for me to just balance everything. Like when you're doing back to back 12 hour shifts, and struggling with an addiction. There's no room in between, to, you know, like you barely have enough time just to go home, walk your dog and do your little day things, just to get up and do it all over again. So, it just got exhausting. Whereas now I just eight hour days give me a better flow, and more opportunity to like rest in between shifts and yeah. I like that.  

Esther Cheung  18:45 

Yeah, that sounds a lot better. Yeah.  I guess with this job, what are the harder parts? 

Lily  18:52 

Um, it's like, honestly, pretty easy. Sometimes it's like, you know, clients like blowing up with other clients. Like, there's really no like, privacy. Like, it's like one big room, right? So like, if you're talking to one person, like everybody in the clinic can hear and sometimes they set each other off, like, of course, they're gonna annoy each other once in a while, or if someone's in psychosis and kind of being-having behavioral problems and freaking out or you can't take things personally, you got to, just like the crisis deescalation techniques are really helpful to keep in mind of just how to work with people to control a situation and not amp someone up further and help settle things down.  

Lily  19:36 

So, we have a lot of like minding boundaries and rules and like catching things, nipping it in the bud before it triggers something else and just kind of keeping the peace in the clinic through our awareness of participants. 

Lily  19:50 

Other than that, the job is really not too hard. Sometimes it can be boring if it's really slow. Like we're post check week right now. So our numbers go down. We always see what check week a decline and people coming in on the regular because they have money to do street dope. So they tend to do that more. And then it'll get busier, probably starting this week. 

Lily  20:12 

So, sometimes it can be a little boring actually in like slow crawl, but still gotta count your blessings that, you know, I could be doing the same job with the same pay and busting my balls all day. But this is like, you know, like I said, I've done my time, I've done my dues. It's kind of nice to have a bit of the slower pace sometimes. But some days I handle it better- better than others. Other times when it's slow, it's like watching paint dry. Which can be like- a little like, aggravating. But yeah, other times, it's okay. And you find things to do. But yeah, it's good.  It's nice and chill, and you're able to do what you need to feel good. And really supportive environment.  

Esther Cheung  20:50 

That's great. Yeah. And you have more time, I guess, on your own to, like with the shorter hours. 

Esther Cheung  20:56 

Yeah. What are your motivations for being a peer worker? Or? Yeah, I know, you said you- earlier, you were- you've always like felt an affinity to this population. And so- but I guess, like on a day to day basis? Yeah. What motivates you to do it?  

Lily  21:13 

Well, like, especially now that I'm working in safe supply, like I said, it's good to see the help that we're providing, rather than just resuscitating people all the time, we're actually giving them a drug to keep them alive. It's like, it's like the harm reduction moto, if you're gonna do drugs anyway, how can we make them safer? So, if you're gonna do street dope anyway, here, I'll give you fentanyl that won't kill you. So it's good that we see the benefit in that. And the stability, it provides people again, knowing like, I don't have to go out there, freaking out to collect cans or stealing something to sell for money, like, we take away that desperation by giving them something safe that they can count on.  

Lily  21:54 

So really, you just see the- it takes away that edge for a lot of people. They don't have to struggle or like, worry about it, it's just there. And that gives people the breath of air to then think like, oh, like, maybe I don't want to do this anymore. Maybe I want to go to detox. And so it's nice being a part of the positive change. 

Lily  22:15 

And I mean, I'm always, I'm somebody that has really, I, I've done a lot of overdoses. And I've always been inclined towards medical first response, I wanted to be a paramedic for quite a while. And I volunteered in medical response for university even. So, but then without making it my full time job. I like that I can like use my expertise in that and save lives without it having to be like my full time gig. 

Lily  22:43 

But um, yeah, so I like, just like, knowing that I know what I'm doing. Because I'm doing it so much, saving lives like that. That's important.  

Esther Cheung  22:55 

Yeah.  

Lily  22:56 

And yeah, just being a part of like, the forefront of harm reduction is just really cool.  

Esther Cheung  23:01 

Yeah.  

Lily  23:02 

Yeah. 

Esther Cheung  23:05 

You mentioned that you do art with- with the people who come in, in between doses. Is that using your art therapy?  

Lily  23:16 

Um, no, not formally.  

Esther Cheung  23:18 

Okay.  

Lily  23:19 

We're just putting stuff out and, like, supporting people if they want to colour or make drawings, or, like, encourage that, and we can join in with them.  

Esther Cheung  23:27 

Yeah. 

Lily  23:28 

I, I was running art therapy groups, treatment centers for a little bit up until well, pretty regularly. I had three groups a week, up until COVID hit, and then everything got canceled that March and COVID, and I just really haven't gotten back into it yet.  

Esther Cheung  23:46 

Yeah. 

Lily  23:46 

Although I could be doing in person stuff now. Because it's really not the same, like there was online art therapy happening. And it's just, you know, like, it's one thing doing therapy, like through a video call, which is still even diminished, like, there's a lot to say about just the physical presence. And therapeutic presence in art is very tangible in real life. So I just never was inclined to go into the online section. And now it's like, you know, you just need that time and effort to put yourself out there to make groups happen. 

Lily  24:17 

I just haven't, like, you know, just been working to get the full time paycheck just to survive to pay the rent, and that hasn't led to a lot of motivation to then, you know, in my evenings after work to search for art therapy, but it's like a passion I really miss being a part of and would like to do more of. I just haven't got back around to it. 

Esther Cheung  24:37 

Yeah, yeah. I guess I want to ask about the financial stability now with the work but I'm also curious, I'm just going to jump back for a sec and ask how many people do you get approximately a day? Or like, 'cause I know - yeah, 'cause I know you said you're also not taking any more intake. So how much does save supply in the specific place that you work with on a regular bases, how many people come through the doors?  

Lily  25:01 

Well, we have maybe like 20 people on the Sufentanil program.  

Esther Cheung  25:06 

Yeah. 

Lily  25:06 

The thing is, they can get up to four doses a day, right? So it's like you have to account for, if everyone came in, everyone would need a booth with an hour in between. So some you see the same people for like, sometimes half of the day. 

Lily  25:24 

There's maybe about 10 people on the oral Fentora. And then there's the Fentanyl patch program. And then we have a whole bunch of outreach clients as well that are getting other patches or wound care or other medications to the doctor through outreach basis, which is about the same number.  

Lily  25:40 

So clinically, probably have around 30 or 35 participants, probably the same or more. Yeah, I think we're on 75 total right now, if you factor in the outreach people that you don't see at the clinic all the time. Yeah. But then a lot of the time, it's the same people throughout the whole day, because they're coming back for multiple doses.  

Esther Cheung  25:58 

That's a lot. That's a significant impact. That's great.  

Lily  26:00 

But on a daily basis, we might only see say, like 10 to 15 faces. We're not seeing people come in like sometimes people are missing for quite a while. And other times you see the same people, like every day that never miss it. So some people that are every other day, it just depends how often they come in.  

Esther Cheung  26:18 

Yeah, so it's mostly on them. You guys are just open doors sort of thing for these people.  

Lily  26:23 

For yeah, if they're already in the program, they can just walk in our doors. Otherwise, it's closed. 

Esther Cheung  26:31 

Yeah, and I guess going back to, I guess, the financial thing, you said that it's just hard right now even running your own sort of art therapy things on the side? Could you tell more about that, like what your situation is? You have a dog?  

Lily  26:45 

Yeah, it's just like, and, I mean, I've like just in the last number of months, kind of been regaining my stability and of like, using and stuff. So, I don't know, sometimes just at the end of the day, I've just been tired. And other times, it's like needing that immediate money, because like, my rent is twice as much now that I found housing. 

Lily  27:06 

I really, really struggle to barely afford like, it's like, when I get one paycheck, that's the entire thing rent. Now I have no money for two weeks, you know, paid $1530 all by myself. So I'd been doing Skip the Dishes a little bit in the evening, because it's like, I can bring my dog. And if I want to work I can, if I don't, I don't. Now my car's broken down. And I haven't been able to Skip.  

Lily  27:11 

Yeah, just as much as I wanted to art therapy, it's just been like, you gotta set aside the opportunity to make more immediate money to get that going, you know, and also just needing to make sure that I'm at my best to be able to do that.  

Esther Cheung  27:45 

Yeah. 

Lily  27:47 

So it's like in the near future, but just haven't been able to like, put the rest of my energy into that yet. Oh, as I yawn.  

Esther Cheung  27:58 

I mean, it's been a it's been a long day for you, too. It's a Monday as well. So.  

Lucas Akai  28:03 

So, one thing you had mentioned, with your present working at that location is check week. And now that's completely unfamiliar term for me, so maybe expand on that.  

Lily  28:19 

Check week is when it's like Welfare Wednesday. It's when once a month for the homeless community, generally speaking, receives either a disability check or a welfare check.  

Lucas Akai  28:31 

Oh, okay. I see. All right. 

Lily  28:32 

And those checks come once a month. And it's like a big day for those people when they get their money that they get for the month, which is often gone very quickly. 

Lily  28:41 

But you see the same patterns throughout of the community. Like in housing, it was that even like I worked in the kitchen there for a while we would serve dinner to 150 people and you would- we would literally make half as much food on check week because the folks don't eat as much. Either because they're buying food they want with their money, or they're just doing drugs and they're not eating. So, there you see very common trends. There's also tends to be increases of overdoses on check week because people have money to do dope. 

Lily  29:11 

And like for us in safe supply, we see a decrease in participants because they have money to buy street dope, which unfortunately, I guess can you know, sometimes be a bit stronger for them than our medical stuff. 

Lily  29:27 

But yeah, so that's kind of there's a phenomenon with check week. It's very well known in the homeless community. Or called Welly Wednesday, Welfare Wednesdays. It's once a month on Wednesday, they get money. Like I said, then you- it's also like the week coming up to check week people are very broke and desperate for things and you see there's like a very routine struggle that happens have they got their money and then it leads to like increased use, buying what they want, but then running out of money very quick, and then kind of trying to make it by for the rest of the month. Until they get paid again. 

Lucas Akai  30:02 

And now with [bleeped] you said, you know, the maximum would be about 75 participants, but does that serve as like, what area would that service? And are there multiple locations? 

Lily  30:14 

What area of like town?  

Lucas Akai  30:16 

Yes, yeah. 

Lily  30:18 

We're like, downtown [bleeped]. 

Lily  30:21 

We're just- they're opening a new safe supply clinic in [bleeped] that's just starting. But there's really not that many safe supply clinics at all yet.  

Lily  30:29 

And we're technically a research project, we have to show our statistics once a year, how it's benefiting. 

Lucas Akai  30:37 

 I see. 

Lily  30:38 

Our nurses...and like we do surveys of people to gauge the benefits and ways they see it better. But basically, like our clinical nurse lead is helping prove to Health Canada and the Ministry of mental health and addictions, why safe supply is good, and why it's working and how it's benefiting, and show that from a clinical perspective in order to get our funding approved each year.  

Lily  31:01 

So it's like a year by year approval, we're not guaranteed to continue, but there has always shown to be good. We are always showing benefits, we have been given the nod of approval by them, but at the same time, it's like we need the funding from them.  

Lucas Akai  31:14 

Right. Right.  

Lily  31:14 

So yeah.  

Lucas Akai  31:16 

And now how long has [bleeped] been in operation? 

Lily  31:21 

Oh, quite a long time. Must like, probably since the early 90s. Or late 80s. Or? Yeah, yeah. 

31:28 

See? 

Lily  31:30 

Same with [bleeped], which started in Vancouver, yeah. 

Lucas Akai  31:34 

Right. And now all the funding is through the government. Is that what you-? 

31:38 

Funding 

Lily  31:38 

The funding is through, yeah, Health Canada and the Ministry of mental health and addictions. I don't know, provincially or federally, but it all has to get approved federally that we're doing this.  

Lucas Akai  31:49 

Right. That makes sense.  

Esther Cheung  31:51 

I'm curious, is there anything as an intro, is there anything like else that you want us to know? Or that or are there things that we've totally missed? Or has gone over our heads? Or like, what's relevant for you? Because also, I mean, this is your story. And your experiences. So. 

Lily  32:09 

I looked at that list quite a while ago, so I can't remember it all. It all felt relevant at the time, I couldn't really think of anything to add or anything I was uncomfortable with. 

Lily  32:18 

I think I mean, in my experience, I've, I mean, we've seen a lot of people die, I've seen a lot of residents that aren't here anymore. And I've also had one of those personal stories in my own life with my, I'm not with them anymore. But my boyfriend of three years, his brother died of accidental overdose, and we had to discover his body with his mom. And it was just terrible. And so that really felt like it hit like family close at the time.  

Lily  32:47 

I still like, hang out with them. But we're not together anymore. But at the time, yeah, that was like really hard. We had to help plan the funeral and all that and just see, like a mother's grief was just like, absolutely awful. 

Lily  33:03 

So that was kind of like, wow, I work in this field and I see this all the time. But now it's hitting like my family directly, you know? So I've had an experience of that. And yeah, I mean, just like all the time when I worked in the housing buildings, like hundreds of ODs I've responded to and just getting to know that so familiar- in such a familiar way.  

Lily  33:25 

And then other horror stories that thankfully, I didn't see a lot of myself directly, but you know, coworkers during written checks and finding people hanging by the neck and witnessing someone jump out of fifth floor window headfirst and having to find her body beneath, like, due to psychosis, like just there's been so much horrific stuff in those buildings. That's really sad.  

Lily  33:47 

And these people, you just don't see a lot of the hope for change, like, okay, they have housing, but now what like, it's just like, they're off the street, they're tucked away. We feed them and house them in this like barely good enough building, you know, like, single room occupancy. But what next, and that was part of what was sad. When I eventually, like, left there was like, I had residents there I knew for five, six years, and they'd be like, Well, where do I go from here? Like, I can't even apply for their housing, because I'm technically housed, you know, like, how do I ever get out of here. And it's such a wet building. Wet building means like drugs or drug use is allowed like and use openly. 

Lily  34:23 

And it's just how does somebody ever get sober in an environment like that, right? There's just so little hope for change. It's like most of those people will be drug addicts their whole life or die an early death, or maybe the odd one will actually get out and get sober but there's not enough help quick enough, like detox referrals take two months.  

Lily  34:46 

There's no treatment that's paid for like there's just, you know, yeah, like if you can afford rehab at $20,000 a month, right? Like who can do that? Like, not these people. They're so neglected and you know, stigmatized and judged by society, when, for the most part, it's not even their fault. A lot of these people were born into horrible lives to begin with. Poverty, or say they were a normal functioning person that had a workplace injury and then they got prescribed prescription opiates, and now they're addicted. And their whole life went downhill because they were just susceptible to addiction.  

Lily  35:19 

Like, there's a lot of stories that are, they're just really sad, or, you know, indigenous folks, and are just kids that were born into their parents being drug addicts and living in poverty, how like, would have been a miracle if they came out any other way. People that have just been abused horribly, like, they're so judged as like, oh, well, if they wanted to be clean, they would or, you know, like, it's a choice to be homeless or drug addicted. And I really don't see that it's a choice.  

Lily  35:46 

These people aren't having fun. You know, most of them absolutely hate it. But they're trapped. And there's so little ways to get out. That's like, it's quite sad. So it's hard to work in housing for that long and just see like, the same people like never getting better, you know. And now I'm working in a place where, like, we're at least seeing some stabilization and growth towards change. Or like, yeah. 

Esther Cheung  36:12 

Has that affected you like seeing all that so up close and personal for so many years?  

Lily  36:17 

Um, I'm amazed that I like, I have pretty tough skin for work things. Like, I mean, things can be like stressful, but like, like, again, like my inclination for like medical first response, like, I handle chaos and stress, well, sometimes better than just a normal day, you know, like, I'd be a cool cucumber in an emergency. But my anxiety and emotional stress could like, be over something totally little, you know?  

Lily  36:45 

I did a really, really good job of leaving work at the door. And I wasn't someone that, like I'd see coworkers that would carry things around or be upset about, say, like a death or blah, blah, blah, in their home life, and that would weigh them down. But I somehow just didn't have that same kind of attachment. Like it was sad, and I'd feel for it, but like, it never bogged me down.  

Lily  37:08 

What I found was it all depended on how I took care of myself and my home life, that would be how I could handle my job. It was all about the self care. So- and whether that is a unconscious, vicarious effect of the stress of work, I don't know. Like, why was it that I ended up coping on drugs more like...Was that just because drugs came around and they got addictive? Or was - was it that I was unconsciously - unconsciously coping with the stress? But I didn't feel it was direct, but it would definitely indirectly affect how I came into work. And my ability to give the same energy I would have had I just slept all night, like totally different.  

Lily  37:49 

So again, I don't know what has led to more of that coping in that way. Or like, could have chosen other healthy habits. But again, is it always a choice, right? Not sure. When it gets in your brain. You know, you're like, I see what makes me feel better. And I see what I want to do. But then oh, whoops. Somehow I just spent the last money I needed for something else on drugs. Like, you know, yeah. There's some free will that sometimes gets taken away, I think with addiction. Yeah. Yep.  

Esther Cheung  38:23 

I feel like we covered a lot. Do you have any other things?  

Lily  38:28 

Yeah, I'm like, What are we gonna talk about for 10 more interviews? Oh my god! More detailed stories, I guess. I'm not sure. Your questions will help lead things.  

Esther Cheung  38:36 

I think so. Yeah, I know we've covered a lot. It's a good like, introductory like gloss over of everything. A sort of get to know you. 

Esther Cheung  38:47 

for 

Lucas Akai  38:47 

For this week in particular, the whole goal is just to get to know each other and say hi. 

Caitlin Burritt  38:52 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.