Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC. 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 
The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 
Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode you'll hear Charisma Crystal Thomas interview Juls Budau for the last time. Juls talks about consistently facing trauma in her work and how she often feel stress from this exposure manifest physically. Juls discusses the way that trauma both motivates her to continue her work and makes her feel stress and burnout. She also shares the personal story of a death that occurred when she worked in Vancouver and how it impacted her. 

Juls Budau  02:00 

It's hard, it's hard to say. Because I mean, it influenced me to come to Prince George and go back and restart my Masters. Like the trauma. So like, that's good. But who knows, like, what I would have done, but like how much more money I would have, if I didn't start working in the sector, because it doesn't pay a lot. And I spend a lot of time on stress leave, so. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  02:27 

But do you feel the experience is overall positive or negative for you personally? 

Juls Budau  02:37 

That's such a weird-- it's hard, because it's like, I mean, it's like, I saw this, like, crisis unfold around me. And I was like, I'm going to, like, become an expert in that. And I'm going to work in that. And I'm going to try to educate people about that. Because like, what most people think is the solution or what's going on, it's like not what's happening, or is not the solution. But then I'm just like, but I also don't see, at the same time, though, it's like, I just, just wish it would all, all end, you know, I wish that the overdose crisis would be solved, then like, I would just get a different job. And that's fine, you know? 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  03:28 

Mhmm. So, this question is an obvious one, but how often do you face death and trauma? 

Juls Budau  03:35 

Like, I probably respond to an overdose not as much as you would think, but like once a month maybe. Um... 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  03:58 

Has that changed -- 

Juls Budau  03:59 

I haven't, I haven't been working, like, frontline that much lately. But um, you know, but you always -- there's always someone you know that's that's died. Like, every week it seems. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  04:17 

Has that number changed at all since you joined? Or has it been consistent that you respond once a month to an overdose? 

Juls Budau  04:28 

Like, I think it's going up. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  04:31 

Oh.  

Juls Budau  04:32 

Yeah.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  04:33 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  04:35 

And I feel like prescribed safe supply is going to be, like, cut back. And then it will, like go, go up more. I think. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  04:51 

Do you think this sort of trauma impacts you mostly emotionally, physically, psychologically? Or is there another factor that you feel it impacts in your life? 

Juls Budau 05:03 

What were the options emotionally, physically... 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  05:09 

emotionally, psychologically? Or is there any other way it impacts you? 

Juls Budau 05:15 

I mean, I don't really think that those things could be like, extrapolated, like those are all, like, feed into each other. I think definitely, physically first. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  05:29 

Mhmm. In what ways does that does it affect you physically? 

Juls Budau 05:39 

I often feel like I have, like a physical like, stress response before I even like realise that I'm stressed. So. So I guess, like, that freeze response I was talking about earlier, or like, being very tired but also like not being able to sleep, not really eating much at all, like, one and a half meals a day or something like that. And like, just like not getting a lot of done or like, like, more likely to, like, be sick or like, grinding my teeth at night and getting migraines, like things like that. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  06:24 

And you did talk a little bit about this, but are there times that you have shut down or blocked an emotion to deal with the situation at hand? Is this a common -- 

Juls Budau  06:34 

Oh yeah, like all like all the time. But I don't think it's like-- 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  06:40 

do you feel, mhmm -- 

Juls Budau  06:43 

it's not really, like, intentional. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  06:48 

Oh sorry, did you, do you feel that that's a necessary response in your line of work? 

Juls Budau  06:58 

It's not...I think in some ways... It's not very, like convenient to like, break down all the time, or you kind of have to, like, keep going or, like, keep something running that, like, might prevent less deaths, but then at the same time, it can make you look really, like, cold. Like when you're like told about, like a tragedy and like, and I. This is definitely like, has a lot to do with like, being autistic, but like, I feel like people feel like I don't, like, perform grief enough, if that makes sense. Like I don't have, like, the expected response of like, appropriate grief that's appropriate to the person because it could be someone who's like fairly close to me. And I like don't, it doesn't impact me, but it could be someone that I've just met a few times but there's like something about that death that just like kills, but you know what I mean? 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  08:00 

Mhmm. Does that response affect your relationships with people? 

Juls Budau  08:06 

Um, I think so. I think it's like hard for me to, like, always know, like, what impacts my relationships with people. And I kind of just figured out that I was autistic, like, three years ago. But I think that, so in, when I lived in Vancouver, I think there were, I was having a lot of, like, there were like, a lot of things. Like not knowing if I was autistic, like already, like, having like, PTSD, and then dealing with work. And like also having, like, a brain injury where I just was like, could see, just could see people, like, exchange glances or, like, expressions on their face. And just like, knowing that I was, like, pushing people away, but not really knowing how to make that stop happening. Or how to, like, change it, you know? 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  08:55 

Yeah, so going off of that, do you think that the trauma affects the way you think about your work and your willingness to go to work? 

Juls Budau  09:05 

I, yeah, like, a lot of times the trauma, like, pushes me to, like, stay at work or to, like, go to work or sometimes because of the trauma I just can't, like, I just can't do anything. And I think like, like right now on like, the policy like, advocacy side, it's like, so depressing lately, like, because all the like, like hit pieces on like, safer supply and like, that are like, just full of, like, many lies that don't make any sense. And and then seeing it, like, change policy in real time. And it's like, it's really, it's really fucking depressing. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  09:25 

So does the trauma actually make you want to go to work more, because you feel like there's a lot to do, or do you feel like you need to be at home away from it? 

Juls Budau 10:09 

Like, the trauma. The trauma in a way, like, keeps me driven to, like, do the work that I do. Because I know that we're doing, like, the right thing. And I don't, like, and I'm not, like, a person where, like, it's me specifically that needs to save everyone's life. But you know what I mean? Like -- 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  10:31 

yeah -- 

Juls Budau  10:31 

because I know that, like, the services I work in, like, have the potential to like, save someone's life... 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  10:43 

That must be a very big feeling to have to carry every day, though.  

Juls Budau  10:48 

A very what feeling?  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  10:49 

A very big feeling to know that you are doing something very important, but it's also so hard on you. 

Juls Budau  10:58 

Yeah, and that sort of, like, prevents the burnout to an extent just doing, like, knowing that you're doing, like, really ethical work. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  11:11 

And have you taken time off from work due to the stress from work or trauma or death? 

Juls Budau 11:19 

Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, I've taken a lot of, I've taken a lot of stress leave since 2016. Yeah. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  11:30 

And are they accommodating of that? Do you have, like, a set amount you can take? Or? 

Juls Budau  11:34 

Um, no, like, usually, like, especially in this line of work, like, nobody can like, really say no. And that is one thing that I like about working in, like, drug user groups, is that people are very, like, patient with each other and like people, like, everyone kind of works casual and, like, comes and goes. Or there's always like, you know, there's a certain amount of EI, EI weeks you could take every year for, like, medical leave which, like, stress leave is covered under. I also just like, have a really, like, my life, my life overall is not very expensive which means that I can, like, I kind of do work part time already. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  12:32 

And so are you paid on a salary basis or -- 

Juls Budau  12:37 

no --  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  12:37 

based on how many times you go into work, with like, timesheets? 

Juls Budau  12:42 

Um, yeah, I have a timesheet, I haven't, like, been to that job in a while though. I have, like, five very part time jobs where I do, like, like freelance or... 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  13:01 

Freelance social work, or? 

Juls Budau 13:04 

No, like, freelance like, research and like, research coordination. So yeah, like, I work with the University of Toronto with a professor from there who writes about Prince George specifically and we're like, gonna do some sort of qualitative study together this summer. So it's like, you know, I'll be in charge of like, like, supporting the peers or like, kind of like, yeah, like a research coordinator kind of position and like, you know, and I do some, like, consultation and writing. Or will be doing consultation writing for the BC CDC soon and, like, what else do I do?  

 

Juls Budau  13:53 

Oh, yeah, I guess like freelance social work. So there's like, a Northern Health team here and I, like, deliver medications for them. And I, like, most specifically for like, one client, like, a teenage girl. And so that is, yeah, it really is, like, freelance social work. I just kind of, like, do a few hours that needs to be done. And sometimes it's, like, really late at night or like, whatever. Whenever I can track her down. And we're, like, friends on Messenger. So like, so she sends me a message I'll just, like, drop, I mean, if she, if she's, like, due for her meds, like drop everything and just go find her. So yeah, actually, that was like 'no, I don't do freelance social work' then I'm like oh wait, 'I actually do do freelance social worker --'  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  14:42 

I know. It's an -- 

Juls Budau  14:43 

social work'.  And they've been like, talking to me about hiring me as like a peer coordinator too, which was pretty cool. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  14:48 

Oh, that's great!  

Juls Budau  14:49 

Yeah.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  14:51 

Yeah, I know it. I said 'freelance social work.' And I was like, 'What a weird way to put that.'  

Juls Budau  14:56 

Yeah, then I was like, 'That's so weird.' And I then was  I like, 'Wait, yeah, exactly that. I do do that.' 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  15:03 

How do you find that, balancing in so many jobs? Is that? Is that how you like to work? 

Juls Budau 15:10 

Like, I think it's, like, good, especially right now. I like, writing a thesis, like, I can't really have, like, I'm not sure if I would ever have like, a 40 hour a week job. I think if I was a graduate, I would always ask for accommodation, of working four days a week. But yeah, like, because I'm like, mostly writing my thesis. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  15:34 

How is that coming along? 

Juls Budau  15:37 

Well, it's okay. It's good. I didn't get as much done in the last few days as I wanted to, but I think it's fine. I can't be too hard on myself, you know? 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  15:48 

Yeah. 100%. Um, where are we? So do you feel that you have the support to deal with the trauma and death that you face at work, support in your personal life? 

Juls Budau  16:08 

I think I have support in my personal life, I definitely don't have support at work. And which I, like, kind of get because I have been that person. Because I've been, like, a manager or supervisor in this line of work too. And like, I feel like, I don't, there have been situations where I haven't given people support that they have, like, needed. But it's like, so hard when it's like, you know, in these, this line of work, so many hours of my day are, are like, unpaid, and like, I'm like, also burnt out and there hasn't been like... I'm like, supervisor like in name but not in, like, salary, if that makes sense. And not that I only do things for money, but --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  17:00 

But yeah, you have to take care of yourself. 

Juls Budau 17:04 

But it can be hard and, like, even in the past, when I've worked for, like, a bigger company, like, I kind of get it. It's like hard to, like, I mean, there should be things put in place to, like, support staff through this trauma, but it's like, can't really like be on the manager who's also, like, keeping this whole, like, 150 apartment building going. And like, you know, like, now dealing with, like, funeral details, it can be a little bit hard to, like, personally call up all the impacted employees and have, like, a debrief with them. It's like, like, yeah, it's hard. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  17:42 

Yeah. How is the support you get in your personal life? Is it consistent?  Do you always feel that you have support whenever you need it? 

Juls Budau  17:54 

Yeah, I think if whenever I do need it, I think it can be hard for me to, like... Like, reach out for that support or, like... Even know what to ask for, myself. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  18:17 

So is that something you then tend -- 

Juls Budau  18:19 

'cause I mean, even the word support is like, is like very vague. It's like, what do -- 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  18:22

yeah --

Juls Budau  18:22 

you mean by support? Right? Is it just someone being like, "I got you?" Or is it, like, you know, I think that it can mean a lot of different things for a lot of different people. But I think, so like, one thing that I've noticed overall is, it's like, since I've moved to Prince George I feel like, like, my mental health in general is better, like, even like, in response to these things. And I think one of the reason is that I, like my life, like, feels a little less precarious. Like, because my life is, is cheaper, it's more manageable, like, there's like almost like, no situation in which I would, like, be evicted for not paying rent, because I feel like I could always, like, get that together. And if I did, my brother lives, like, five minutes away, and I know that I could always, like, move back in, even though it would be, like, be into like, his childrens' play room. But you know, I know that I don't have to, like, catastrophize about my whole life like falling apart. And I don't have to like stay in jobs that I don't like for financial reasons. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  18:22 

Yeah. So going back a little bit to that support question. What does support look like to you? 

Juls Budau  19:45 

Like, I think for me, um...and it's like, it's, it's, I guess it's like a little bit-- like, I remember working in Vancouver... I think that one way that people can be supported and I have suggested this because I remember like, my friend was like managing a vet clinic and she was like, I don't know how to support my employees through this, like really traumatic time, where we're like putting down animals with the owners present and blah blah blah. And I was like, honestly, like, providing like actual good lunches, like not pizza, or like, actual good food at work is like, such an important thing. Because then it's, like, takes a little bit off of people's mental load. They don't have to figure out, like, what to cook, and then take time to cook it. And then it's like a little bit and also, like, you know, it's a free meal. I think something like that, like providing like, healthy... like, providing healthy meals to people can be good. I think like having people help, like, structure my life, like... Like, honestly, when people like bring me, like, a really nice coffee, like that feels really good to me. 

Juls Budau  21:03 

Or like, when someone like, yells at me to go to bed. Like that can be... just like, because I think, I think that's like an autism thing too. And I know that this is, like, present in, like, a lot of people, like, when you're like, having a bad time. It can be, like, really hard to like, take care of yourself. But I find that, like, it's like to the extreme with me, like. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  21:27 

Mhmm, yeah, you just want someone to help with the everyday, not a huge, big gesture, but the small things in life. 

Juls Budau  21:36 

Exactly that. Yeah. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  21:41 

Yeah, I can relate to that. So when you don't have access to the support you need, what are some things that you do instead? 

Juls Budau 21:57 

I don't know. Like, eat a lot of McDonald's. Like, smoke a lot of pot. Watch a lot of TV. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  22:07 

Just relax and try to reset?  

Juls Budau  22:09 

Yeah.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  22:10 

Yeah. 

Juls Budau 22:10 

Like kind of like get my needs met, like, any way possible. Just like, try to do something to, like, not like obsess over, like... Like, just like, to like, stop myself from, like, thinking about things that are too much. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  22:29 

Do you have a show that you always go back to? When you? 

Juls Budau  22:34 

Um I do have a few. It was more like movies. Like, I've watched the movie Clueless, like, like if I say like, 2000 times. I don't think that's an exaggeration. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  22:52 

Can you recite every line from it?  

Juls Budau  22:54 

Yes, I can. Not off the top of my head, if I was watching it.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  22:59 

Yeah. So that, those, that's some of the go to things that you do?  

Juls Budau  23:05 

Yeah, like, like, watch. Like, I have some movies I watch over and over again. Or I just like try to find like a new show. I don't like to watch anything that's like, stressful or violent or even too suspenseful though, just like, always trying to find new, like, comedies to watch or whatever. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  23:32 

Yeah, that's always something that helps even my stress. My boyfriend and I are trying to watch every single Star Wars movie and show in order. 

Juls Budau 23:43 

Every single what movie?  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  23:45 

Star Wars. Star Wars. 

Juls Budau  23:49 

Oh, Star Wars, oh.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  23:50 

Yeah, sorry.  

Juls Budau  23:51 

Yeah, like getting, yeah. I've thought about doing Rocky recently. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  23:55 

Yeah. I feel like it gives you something to look forward to when you get home at the end of the day.  

Juls Budau  24:03 

Yeah, exactly.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  24:04 

Yeah, it structures you. 

Juls Budau  24:06 

Yeah. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  24:10 

So this is entirely up to you, but are there any instances of trauma or death that you would like to share? Something that impacted you? 

Juls Budau 24:34 

Um...Yeah, there was once um, when I was working in Vancouver, I think I was, I don't remember exactly what happened. I think I was off for a little bit or gone or, but so there was this really young trans girl lived in our building, she was only 21. And she was on a suicide watch because her boyfriend had just died of an overdose. When we were doing these room checks, which they were like, making her really mad, and she like, came home one night, and she was like, "you aren't going to do room check on me, are you?" And I was like, "well, I don't know. Like, if you seem to be like in good spirits or whatever, like, if [you're] fine and like you promise to like call us." And she was like, "yeah yeah," and then like she was supported by this other, this like team specifically for like queer youth. And they were like messaging us and they were like, "no, you have to go check on her." 

Juls Budau  25:26 

And so me and my coworker went up and we're like, "oh, this is gonna suck" and we like, we were like, we'll give her some cigarettes. And like, we went in to her apartment. And she was like, so mad. She like got up, she get dressed. She was, like, throwing plates at the wall. And like, came into the lobby. It's like throwing plays. And she was just like, "Fuck you, Juls." And then I think that was the last day of my work week. And so I had a few days off. And, or something like, I don't remember. And then she was like, I guess she was like, telling the manager how she was like, gonna, like, kill me, whatever. And so the manager was like, "Okay, for Juls' is safety, we're gonna, like, stop doing these checks."  

Juls Budau  26:16 

And then like, I came back to work, like a few days later for a staff meeting. And we're like, "oh, where's [bleeped]?" And we're like, "oh, [bleeped]'s up doing a check on so and so." And I was like "oh," and she found her like dead in her room.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  26:32 

Oh... 

Juls Budau  26:35 

And yeah, that one was like, really hard. And then like, then the next week after that, I found someone else dead, dead in. I found someone else dead in her room, it was like that, and then that, was like, a lot to deal with. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  26:54 

How did you process that? 

Juls Budau 26:56 

Um, I don't remember. I think that they, like, they called in, like, this like team to, like, help us cope with all the losses. But then it was, like, a lot of the, some of the staff were, like, really mad. So, because it was like, that one... death, but it wasn't that one death that, like, sparked this, like, intervention for the managers, but it was just like, the last one or like, and because it had like it because like her boyfriend had been, like, nephews with people in the build-- like, it just impacted a lot. But then some of the staff were like, "well, why didn't we have these interventions when, when these like Indigenous women died?"

Charisma Crystal Thomas  27:44 

Oh.  

Juls Budau  27:45 

And and like, like, especially like, like my colleagues are like First Nations and they're like dealing with seeing people die. And then like people in their families and they like already feel like, their lives don't value. So that was, like, really tense. You know, they got us, like, they bought us food. And we had, like, an art therapy session. I think that after that was like when I, like, decided to go back to grad school. Like, I just, I was like, I just like, need like, a change 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  28:20 

So it was quite a -- quite a big event in your life. And you made a lot of decisions. 

Juls Budau  28:26 

I didn't even connect those two things when I started telling this story. But I yeah, I remember it like, because I already was like seeing like one of those counselors you can get for like, five or six sessions through your benefits, you know what I mean? And then I saw her again, and or six sessions through your benefits, you know what I mean? And then I saw her again, and she was like, "you're not looking good." And then yeah, and even just, like, having like, a goal. Even if it's, like, I don't know, like, a goal can really just like, help you like, move forward in life and just like, not feel so, like, helpless. 

Juls Budau 28:27 

Yeah. And just to clarify, what was your relationship to that young girl? You were social worker or? 

Juls Budau  29:15 

I was her support staff. So I was like, I was not like specifically her. And we was like, no, we supported all the work I was, like, specifically like, a family support worker that building but I, like, supported, because the building was, like, family suites and then, like, bachelor apartments for women. But you know, I like, supported everyone. But I mean, like, like, we weren't like super close. But, you know. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  29:44 

Yeah, it was many things leading up to that.  

Juls Budau  29:48 

What's that?  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  29:49 

Many things lead up to -- 

Juls Budau  29:52 

yeah 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  29:52 

the final thing. Yeah. How? If you can remember that moment. How did you respond in the moment or right after it? 

Juls Budau 30:09 

Like I remember, like, it was, like, so horrible, because when we found that first, the young girl, it was like, we were like, about to have a staff meeting, like all of us were there. And like, a lot of people were like... Like, their first thought was, like, blame ourselves.  

Juls Budau  30:38 

It was just like, like, we can't, we can't, like we do our best. I mean, there's there's work for like, there was a place for like, putting in, like, processes to keep someone safe. But like, in that situation, it's like, it's like, she's like a victim of like, a system that we're also, like, the victims of, you know what I mean? Like. Like, we don't control the toxic drug supply, like, us as a staff. Like, you know, we don't, I mean, obviously, I'm not gonna be like, "oh, none of us are transphobic." But you know what I mean? But it's, like, we don't control this overall system of, like, transphobia that, like exists in the world that like, makes her feel like her life doesn't have value or like, we didn't kill her boyfriend.  

Juls Budau  31:28 

Like, we tried really hard to, like, keep her safe. And it's hard. It was just like, it just sucked. Because it was it's like, so complicated, because it's like, on one hand, you don't want to do the checks if that's not what she wants to do, you want to grant her the autonomy. And then, but then when she like. When then when she's not getting the checks, she does, potentially overdose. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, there's not really anything that you know, we certainly, we certainly fucking try. And then when the second woman, like, I don't, I don't even know. I don't know. I don't know how we responded. I just was like, scared. I was scared when I saw her body. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  32:23 

Mhmm.  

Juls Budau  32:23 

It was, and it was hard. And my manager had to come in to, like, tell her boyfriend that she had died. And it was like really hard. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  32:30 

Has it ever gotten easier to deal with that? 

Juls Budau  32:37 

No. Overdoses, yes. Because I usually responding to an overdose like, sooner after the overdose than what I used to because before you would like, find someone when you're doing a room check, you had no idea how long they'd been overdosed for. Whereas now, I like, usually respond to overdoses, like, pretty soon after the person has overdosed. So it's like... 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  33:11 

Did this incident change how you perceive your work and how you conduct yourself at work in any way? 

Juls Budau  33:30 

That's a really hard question. I don't know. I think it kind of, like, drove me to, like, kind of have more purpose for myself, but it also kind of gave me the attitude of like... You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, like, like feeling like you have, like, little control over keeping people alive... 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  34:05 

Yeah... 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  34:12 

But did that, sort of, realisation help you at work? Or did you feel further connected to the work through that realisation? 

Juls Budau  34:28 

It can be, like, really hard to remember, like, my emotions attached to a situation. That was, like now, like five years ago, do you know what I mean?  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  34:42 

Yeah, that's understandable, yeah.  

Juls Budau  34:44 

Like I remember, especially it's like, I have like, emotions now. Like, surrounding the whole situation, like, as a whole and like, have like, realised new things but, like, don't really remember my emotions in the moment. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  35:04 

That makes sense. What are your personal strengths that help you address those challenges? What do you think your strengths are? 

Juls Budau  35:24 

I think that my ability to, like, connect individual experiences to like a larger like political, basically like, war against drug users. I think that. I think the like, the disassociation aspect actually makes me appear, like, extremely like, calm and capable during like, really extreme crisis, crisis, crises. Um...Yeah. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  36:05 

And is that? You being calm, does that make you a person everyone turns to? Does the burden fall on you disproportionately to handle the situation? 

Juls Budau  36:20 

Um no it, like, when there's, like, something unravelling right in front of me, I can often like deal with it, like, like a really high intensity situation, I could usually, like, deal with it, like, pretty well, like, right at the moment. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  36:39 

And do others turn to you because of that, to kind of help their situations or something that they were in charge of? 

Juls Budau  36:48 

I think it really depends. Because there could be a situation in which a few people are, like, acting really proactively, will like work together. And the people who freeze, like, I like understand, like, why. But if you know someone else has, like, control of the situation I don't usually like... like, even if there's, like, an overdose happening, like, I remember I was, I don't remember why, it was downtown where there was, like, someone like, having a seizure. And like, immediately I went and, like, went over to that situation. But then these, like, outreach workers, like, pulled up, and I was like, "okay, like, you guys have phones, you're working, you're trained in first aid," so I just, like, got back to my car and, like, left, you know what I mean? Like, because I don't feel like, there doesn't need to be, like, an extra person there. And I don't take every-- not everything is my responsibility. So. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  37:55 

Have you always had this ability to be proactive in a situation? Have you ever frozen yourself in a situation?  

Juls Budau  38:05 

Oh, yeah. I don't want to talk about it. But yeah.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  38:09 

No worries. And you did touch on this a little bit, but do you think you received enough training to face these challenges at work? 

Juls Budau  38:25 

No, and it's so absurd that I haven't really heard of a lot of people getting, like, crisis, like de-escalation training, which I got when I, like, worked in like, group homes for children like 13 years ago. That's, like, one thing, like, nonviolent crisis intervention is something that people should definitely get in this line of work, which I, like, very rarely see offered. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  38:58 

Was that when you were in Newfoundland, or? 

Juls Budau  39:01 

Yeah. I worked for. Yeah, I worked for a company that, like, ran group homes and, like, we had this whole, like, residential care training through, like, Cornell University. But at the same time, I know there is a lot of, like, free courses and, like, webinars that people could take that I just, like, haven't done any of that because I've also been in school for the last, like, four years. So I haven't, like, really done a lot of, like, additional like, self-motivated training, you know. 

Juls Budau  39:39 

And I guess that's one thing. I don't know, I can't really, like, I think, in general, no. In like, both don't get enough training working in, like, overdose prevention sites, or, like, homeless shelters. I feel like I'm a bit of a different case, because I have that prior training. And then I'm also getting, like, Masters of Social Work. But at the same time, you'd be surprised at how few, like, like, clinical or like, like, interaction-y, like type skills, you don't get in Social Work school, skills, social work school, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's a lot of, like, theory. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  40:29 

Do you think these things should be standardised? Or is it effective if people just pursue their own learning however they can? 

Juls Budau  40:39 

What? Can you repeat that question? 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  40:41 

Do you think that this training should be standardised? Or can people just -- 

Juls Budau  40:45 

yeah, I do -- 

 
Charisma Crystal Thomas  40:46 

learn it? 

Juls Budau  40:46 

Yeah, I do. I do think it should be standardized. And I think that the, like, all these courses should be, like, paid for, like, by the province. People should be paid for their time to take them as well. Like, if people could just show that they're, like, a staff or, like, a volunteer at like, an overdose, an overdose prevention service or whatever. And I think it's, like, the system right now of having everything dealt with, on one hand by drug user groups who do, like, amazing and, like, flexible work. But then it's, like, on the onus of, like, the executive director. It's like, you're to, like, remember all the parts of a grant to apply for? Or like, the grants are, like, so small that it's, like, not necessarily going to, like, cover the amount of training that everybody needs. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  41:33 

Mhmm. What else do you think should be provided to you and your peers aside from mandatory training? 

Juls Budau  41:47 

Like I think that there should be like a standardised, like, extended health benefit. Um, I think that, like, on, on-demand, on-demand, like, mental health treatment for everybody, would help the staff in-- the staff in... Like, because it's, like, so ridiculous, like, how much like, insane stuff that we do have to deal with and it's because, like, people who are making more money, like, can't deal with someone. Or like, someone's, like, inappropriate for, like, a housing program or, like, a mental health intervention, which just means they're, like, wildly, like, mentally ill. Like, not sleeping, undernourished, covered in infections, and then the only people there to care for them are like peer staff, like, in a one room trailer. Like that's absurd. I think like I know that some of these people on, like, disability already have and a lot of peer staff are on disability or social assistance but, like, like, access to like, gym and pools... I think like Co-Op housing for people who work on the front line. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  41:51 

Is there anything else you'd like to add about trauma and death as a whole? Anything we missed? Questions? 

Juls Budau  43:26 

No, I think that well, like, one thing that I've noticed is, like, this whole, like, greater discussion about, like, safer supply, like, I don't think that people realize, like, like, how personal it is for people. Like, how it like, affects that, like, friends and families and communities, like, and how like, traumatic it is for us to, like, deal with these things, like, in our lives. It's like, it's not just, like, a political game or, like, an abstract argument for us. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  44:08 

Okay, thank you. 

Caitlin Burritt  44:10 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.