Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC. 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Charisma Crystal Thomas interview, Juls Budau about housing challenges and referring individuals to resources. Juls describes instances of people she knows being evicted from supportive housing and the lack of recourse for people in that position. She also discusses common misunderstandings about the concept of safer supply and how advocating for herself and her community can be challenging in her small community. Juls reflects on the difficulties faced when referring individuals to shelters, as well as barriers to getting individuals medical and mental health support. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  02:10 

So I think the last we talk, we talked about was the lack of respect and recognition at work. And we were also talking about housing challenges. But was this a stressor that really applied to you? 

Juls Budau  02:28 

Like, in some ways, housing challenges does apply to me because, like, for instance, my boyfriend who's also a peer staff, like, lives with us already.  And like, in some ways, I'm just like, it's fine. That's just, like, the reality of the world. And sometimes, like, I can't believe we're, like, forced to live together and, but it's just like, I like, honestly, like, just can't ask him to leave because there's just, like, literally, like, nowhere for him to go, that's like, safe --


Charisma Crystal Thomas  03:00

 yeah --


Juls Budau 03:01

or that he could, like, can do his like recovery in. And then, like, sometimes, like, I have just, like, other peer staff. Like, I remember one peer staff was, like, had like, OD'd and then, and then she was, like, asleep in the trailer for a long time. And I like, tried to, like, drive her to, her auntie just lives in the building next to me, but she was like, so benzo-ed she couldn't remember, like, the code. So it's like, I just like, was like, "well, I'm not leaving, like, this tiny First Nations woman on the sidewalk." I'm like, "okay, let's like, come sleep on my couch." Like, which is like, fine, but you know what I mean? Like, it's like -- 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  03:38 

yeah, I guess there is a stress, stress on your interpersonal relationships, because --

Juls Budau  03:44 

exactly --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  03:44 

you'll never get that kind of separation from it. Because --

Juls Budau  03:49 

yeah --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  03:51 

yeah. 

Juls Budau  03:51 

And another one of my co-workers had that same co-worker, like, spend the night. And I was like, "did I, like, set like a precedent of ,like, bad boundaries?" Not that I feel like we shouldn't shelter - I don't know, it's like such a weird scenario.  

 
Charisma Crystal Thomas  04:00 

Mhmm.

Juls Budau  04:00 

Like, "oh, my God, I like let [beeped out name]" [indiscernible] if you're using this weekend, then like, stay here. And she was like, but then that coworker told her that she couldn't use any drugs while she was there. So it's like, you're having someone addicted to drugs at your apartment for  12 hours. They're like, gonna go through withdrawal. And like  --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  04:00 

yeah -- 

Juls Budau  04:00 

be like, a little extreme, like, because she was like, she couldn't sleep. But she was, like, paranoid all night. I'm like, "yeah, like, she's withdrawing from benzos. Like, that's..." 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  04:35 

I actually wanted, because I think in previous interviews, I was taking notes for the art section. So there were some questions I wanted to clarify on my end to understand your work better. So many of your colleagues are also drug users themselves, is that right? 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  04:35 

Most of them are. Yeah. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  04:44 

And so how, how does that work? Is there some sort of boundaries that - restrictions that are placed on them? Or are they still allowed to kind of practice freely but also have work responsibilities? How are those things divided up? 

Juls Budau  05:21 

So basically, like the latter. So we have, like, the most low barrier employment we have is like outreach shift. So at each week of the meeting, we have like a draw --
 

 Charisma Crystal Thomas  05:21 

mhmm -- 

Juls Budau  05:23 

that if your name is called, you get to choose a shift. And then you just, like, show up and do it. And if you don't show up, there's like literally no consequence, except you just don't get the shift and you don't get the money.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  05:45 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  05:46 

If you don't show up, we'll just like try to find someone else or just, like, not send outreach out that day. Just because it gives people a chance to try it. Try and try again, right? And we ,and it's like, because of, we understand that things like the toxic drug supply, and like, being unhoused can, like, prevent someone from not, from showing up to work. And so we have this one tier of employment, that's just like, yeah, you don't show up, it's whatever. And then like, working at the trailer's like a little bit higher, you do have the extra, like, if you don't show up, if you have several no shows where you don't call, like, you're not gonna get shifts. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  06:15 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  06:25 

But people are, like, expected to, like, not use on shift, but even that we're, like, a little bit lax about, like -- 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  06:33 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  06:33 

if someone like smokes, or if someone like injects, like uses, like safe supply, like injects it, then it's like, because it kind of more depends on like, like, your ability to perform your job, like stay awake and be alert, and like, be aware of like, what's going on in the trailer, respond to other overdoses, like, after you've used that substance. So like, for some people, they know how to, like, use just like, a little bit.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  07:02 

Okay. 

Juls Budau  07:02 

And like not, like, not be like high at all, but that --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  07:07 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  07:08 

that situation at work, or like, when I like, didn't show up for our last interview, I was like embarrassed to say was actually [beeped out name] so it made it even more stressful. And he, like, mostly uses safe supply. But he used, like, an old like cooker and filter that had some, like, benzos in it and then he like, so he like, injected the morphine but with this, like, benzo-soaked filter --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  07:31 

mhmm -- 

 

Juls Budau  07:32 

and promptly fell asleep. And it was, like, really scary. And I was, like, so mad. But so, yeah, if you use the toxic drug supply, like, non-safe supply --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  07:42 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  07:43 

it can be so unpredictable how you react. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  07:46 

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I was just trying to understand the structure of the job better. Like, yeah, thank you, I'm sorry. If it's, like, repetitive that you had to explain it before.  

Juls Budau  07:58 

No, no, not at all. Then it's, like, so it's like, me, I work there. And I do do drugs sometimes. I've never had, like, a serious addiction. And then some of the managers are in recovery. And then there's, like, this one co-worker who, like, she has like, barely used drugs in her life, but she just kind of, like, showed up with someone else, like a year ago and she like, is on disability and has, like, some disabilities and has, like, lived in poverty her whole life. And she just kind of shows up and we, she's just, like, such a good, reliable employee who's like --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  08:38 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  08:38 

sometimes, like, a little bit clueless. I think she's also 60 years old.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  08:42 

Oh. 

Juls Budau  08:42 

But I don't know, like, and like, you know, she started, she just showed up. She started, like, doing like, outreach shifts and just, like, liked it. She like, before, before she was, like, a cleaner at the mall. And she was just, like, never had, like, access to, like, a type of job like this.  

Juls Budau  08:42 

And like, lots of people, especially if she's, like, alone with someone in the trailer, and they'll just, like, tell her like, their whole life story because she's such, like, a mom presence. So it's like, and it's just, like, really interesting, because it's like, yeah, she just, like, works with us. It's just like, people are like, high. And she, like, has like, started like, letting people stay at her house, which was just, like, has never, like --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  08:57 

Great, yeah. 

Juls Budau  09:01 

We were like, "yeah, if you want to be around, that's awesome." 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  09:28 

Are there? Is, aside from the low barrier opportunities, do the higher supervisors need some sort of academic qualifications, or did they get trained on the job? 

Juls Budau  09:43 

No, not, no, I'm like, the only one with any, like, academic, except for like, a lot of our peers have had, like, unrelated stuff that you have no idea they just, like, in like, biophysics, or like, just like, in their, like, before-drug life.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  10:02 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  10:02 

College. No, like, the other two managers have, like, lived experience and they're, like, pretty stable in their life now and yeah, just like, all the stuff that's just, like, training and education that, like, we do on the job or, like, through the BCCDC or like, just things like that. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  10:24 

Mhmm. Okay. Hey, that's great. It's a very interesting job structure, it gives people so many opportunities.  

Juls Budau  10:33 

Totally, right? And then it's --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  10:34 

yeah --

Juls Budau  10:36 

like, we interact with, like, academics so much. And I'm, like, kind of both and like, like, a lot of people are, like, invited to like conferences, and yeah, it's really cool. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  10:45 

Um, do you feel that there's any discrimination in housing because of your work? I think you've mentioned your landlord restricting you providing safe supplies. Are there any other things? Or do you feel your colleagues-- 

Juls Budau  10:59 

Oh, he restricted me from saying that I have Naloxone on site. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  11:05 

Oh, yeah. 

Juls Budau  11:15 

I think that that can be, I mean, I think like, not specifically, like, because of our, of our work besides that instance. Although I do feel like I have, like, a reputation of like, like, once there was, like, this note being like, "do not give food to homeless people around the building. -"

  

 Charisma Crystal Thomas  11:31

Mhmm.

 
Juls Budau  11:32 

Like, "don't leave food." And I was like, this is weird. And then I realized that because like, a lot of people who, like, because behind my building, it's like, an alley between another building and like, my window, my office window, like, looks out there. And sometimes I'll, like, see people who are, like, my employees and co-workers. So I'll like, go out there and be like, like, "oh, like, did you know you have a shift?" or like, "oh, I heard you were in the hospital' or, like, you know what I mean?
I will like, go like --


Charisma Crystal Thomas  11:59 

yeah --

Juls Budau  12:00 

check on people. And then I saw, I think, like, the other neighbors are like, kind of like looking down and be like, "oh, she's going to, like, feed them," "if it wasn't for her, like, they wouldn't come through." And it's like, they're just taking the cans and bottles, like, it's so stupid. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  12:15 

yeah --

Juls Budau  12:15 

I don't know.

Charisma Crystal Thomas  12:18 

People are very nosy. 

Juls Budau  12:22 

Yeah. Um...And then, but I think that, like, for like, the more peer, the other peer staff. Like, when you're going from supportive housing, or like an encampment, it could be, like, hard to find housing.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  12:33 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  12:33 

And like, another weird thing that's come up is that, you know, one of our offices is, like, in a BC Housing-funded supportive housing building, and then one of our managers was just evicted from BC Housing. I think that is, like, a very weird thing. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  12:58 

Any reason why, or? 

Juls Budau  12:59 

It's like, it's actually so insane. And it kind of makes me wonder if it's, like, because of like, like, advocacy work or, like, public things that we, like, said about, like, BC Housing, because it was, like, when her daughter turned 19, they were like, they were like, "either she has to move out or, like, pay more rent." So they gave, like, my co-worker, like, this certain amount of rent. It was like, they told her she would be paying $515. And then in the background, they were charging her $595. Then after two years, they were like, "oh, you've been under-paying us by like, you know, $80 or whatever, for like two years. And now you owe us like, $2,000." 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  13:41 

My goodness, yeah. 

Juls Budau  13:43 

And they, like, they took it to court and, like, the judge, like, decided on the side of BC Housing, and you can't access any advocacy because all the, like, advocacy housing services are funded by BC Housing. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  13:56 

Yeah, they are the advocacy. Yeah.  

Juls Budau  13:58 

Yeah. And so they can't work, they  can't support people, like in opposition, with BC Housing. So it's like, you're just fucked.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  14:06 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  14:08 

And then, like, and I feel for her because I don't know. Like, if I had to move right now, like, it would be fucked, and she has, like, a 15 year old son, too. So she [would need] -- 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  14:18 

yeah --

Juls Budau  14:20 

like a two bedroom, that like, she could afford to pay for is, like... 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  14:25 

Yeah, it's like, no solution there.  

Juls Budau  14:28 

No solution. I don't know what she's gonna do. I guess [indiscernible] -- 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  14:29 

Yeah.  Which? Interestingly, sorry. The next question is do you think there are any solutions? Before I said there weren't, but... 

Juls Budau  14:42 

Any solutions? 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  14:44 

Yeah, to these challenges of, maybe either harm reduction workers or drug users facing discrimination in housing? Any solutions you think could solve this crisis? 

Juls Budau  14:55 

I think that, they do this in Vancouver, but specific, like, Co-Op housing for people who work in, like, harm reduction and like, housing like, frontline work, like, low wage earners? Because I think that is really important. Yeah, I think that that is the solution. And then yeah, more like, subsidized housing, like, across the board. Like for like, like people who are like, I mean, actually, I could, yeah, I could apply for BC Housing but it would just be, like, a 15 year wait, right? And then they, like, they don't take care of this unit. It's like there's, it's like, at least in my private unit, I can like, complain and they'll like, fix things probably, eventually. In BC Housing, they just don't. It's so weird. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  15:35 

Mhmm. Have you had experience living in Co-Op housing at all? 

Juls Budau  15:52 

No.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  15:52 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  15:52 

I've always lived in market housing. Yeah. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  15:58 

And I guess also leading off that question. Do you think there's enough, there's any support in addressing these challenges? For you or your colleagues? No?  

Juls Budau  16:09 

No, like, for instance, like, the fact that you can't access any advocacy services against BC Housing is, like, really bad. And then it's like, yeah, and then, you know, when we have a staff member and friend who, like, lives at the supportive housing, where our office is and, like, the ceiling collapses, like, water dripping all over her bed.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  16:33 

Oh my... 

Juls Budau  16:36 

And it's like, actually weird, because I'm just like, "I don't know how to support you," like, because, like, is it gonna like, backlash on us? Are they just gonna evict her like they evicted [beeped out name]? You know what I mean? Like, they're just like, oh, they can just, like, do anything. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  17:01 

Does your organisation that you work with have a lot of advocacy power with these bigger organisations if you talk to them? 

Juls Budau  17:14 

I really think it depends on the organisation and how much they already like or hate us. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  17:19 

Mhmm. So it's whatever relationship that had been built with people who work in organisations? Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  17:30 

Yeah, like a lot of organisations, like, really don't like us. So like. There's like, things that we, like, because of us people are on drugs. No, like, people were already on drugs and we decided to just, like, treat them like humans, despite the fact that they are on drugs. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  17:52 

Do you find that's a common thing you face in life where people don't understand what safe injection sites are and things like that?  

Juls Budau  18:01 

Oh, yeah, 100%. And now safe supply has become. I feel like three months ago, nobody knew what it was and now it's like so politicized. And everyone thinks they know everything about it. Because they, like, read one like, 10,000 word like, exposé, but it was actually, like, an opinion piece, from like, four anonymous doctors. Like... Yeah, it's so bad, like, people literally think that anyone can go to any clinic in BC and just, like, get like, a bunch of, like, heroin pills. And it's like, yeah, it's so bad. It's so bad and, like, everyone's like "Well then how come, like, people are still dying?" and you're like, "because only 5% of the people who need it get it and those aren't the people dying" and it's just like --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  18:54 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  18:54 

so exhausting because it's, like, such a small amount of people getting it now and then it's, like, urging people, urging these, urging like, expansions of these projects and then now there's, like, all this, like, weird backlash. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  19:13 

Is it because of it becoming so politicized in the States? That it became a hot topic here in Canada? 

Juls Budau  19:21 

I don't know if it's so politicized in the States or, like, people just don't really understand, like, what safe supply supply is, right?  Like people, like, people keep being like "look how safe supply worked out for Portland" and you're like "they don't have safe supply, I don't know what you're talking about." But yeah, I do think it's, like, part of this like, far right, like, populism movement, you know? Like, it's like, the Vancouver Is Dying documentary, like, things like that, like "oh we're giving out, the NDP is giving out drugs, and like, nobody's going to jail and there's, like, more violent attacks than ever." And it's like all those things are like actually not true.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  19:22 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  19:22 

Like, reporting on stranger attacks, like, a lot, but there's not actually a rise in stranger attacks. And yeah, so I think it's just, like... Yeah, like, a populism movement, like, or an attempt at one. Like, just like, trying to like, blame like, woke, woke policies for, like, what is going on. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  20:30 

Yeah, it's, it's interesting because a lot of countries, like, in Scandinavia have been doing this and implementing this for a while and it's shown success.  

Juls Budau  20:39 

Yeah, right? 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  20:40 

So it's not, like, we pulled it out of the air. 

Juls Budau  20:42 

Yeah like "oh, it's so different, like, all of their..." they're not just, like, there's always a reason like, why that doesn't apply to that.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  20:51 

Mhmm.  

Juls Budau  20:52 

And it's like, it's, it's the same. But basically, like, the logic right now is that the streets are being flooded, that the hydro-- like, the Dilaudid is being prescribed, but nobody who's prescribed it takes it --  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  21:06 

mhmm --


Juls Budau  21:06 

is what they say. Absolutely no one. And then it's causing new people to become addicted and those people are dying... And that...Yeah, so like, the streets are you flooded with fentanyl --


Charisma Crystal Thomas  21:23 

yeah --

Juls Budau  21:23 

with like, Dilaudid? And it's, like, such small amounts and, like, I only, like yeah. You know, my, my boyfriend, like, is alive right now because of, like, diverted safe supply. Like, he doesn't have his own prescription. And he, like, buys morphine and Dilaudid.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  21:43 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  21:43 

Or, like, I'll buy it for him if the opportunity comes up.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  21:46 

Yeah...  

Juls Budau  21:47 

And I'm just like, it's not that easy. Like, people take it. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  21:52 

Yeah.  

Juls Budau  21:53 

I only see people selling to, like, other adults, you know what I mean? It's like, they're not, like, going to high schools. It's like --


Charisma Crystal Thomas  21:58 

Mhmm.


Juls Budau  22:00 

people who just can't get a prescription here anymore, like, you can't get a prescription anywhere. Like, it's all...[indiscernible] 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  22:09 

Yeah... Um, so have you made any short term or long term decisions in relation to housing for your own career? Has that been something that you take into consideration, both your career and your housing at the same time? 

Juls Budau  22:33 

Can you repeat that question? 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  22:35

In terms of housing challenges, have there any... have you made any decisions in relation to that? 

Juls Budau  22:41 

I mean, I moved to Prince George because I was, like, even though I paid, like, pretty cheap rent in Vancouver for Vancouver. But as my rent just, like, increased every year and I, like, paid like, $750 for like a one room apartment with like a bathroom in the hall. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  22:57 

Mhmm 

Juls Budau  22:58 

I was like I don't want to do this anymore. And then I moved to Prince George and then also I've just, like, I can never move now. Although sometimes I, like, I was like, offered a job in Quesnel that I said no to and then, like, lately, I've just been, like, looking at Quesnel apartments. But I don't know if I actually want to move to Quesnel. It's, like, smaller than here, even. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  23:24 

Mhmm.

Juls Budau  23:28 

But even just, like, not like, just like, not really, like, standing up for myself. Because I'm just, like, well, I don't want to lose this apartment. Or even, like, when there's, like, weird conflict at work. I'm just, like, I'm just not going to do anything. Because it's like, it's a small town and like, I don't wanna, like, have a reputation of like, being like, hard to work with or something. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  23:258

Mhmm 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  24:00 

Mhmm. Is that something that you faced a lot growing up? 

Juls Budau  24:06 

No, it's just in Prince George. Prince George every, like, weirdly, people like, get fired a lot here and I --

 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  24:14 

oh --

Juls Budau  24:14 

have been fired from, like, a few jobs that I was good at. It was, like, very weird. And I think that like, like, in the peer world for like, like the line of work that I do. I don't know. It's like, people are like, fighting over things, or like, people want like, the recognition. And it's like, we have to share that. Like no organization can, like, exist with just one person running it. Like, I don't know, it's just always, like, fighting over scraps. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  24:56 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  24:57 

Because Prince George is so small. Like, I don't know, like, in Vancouver, you would just, like, go get a new job, and just, like, 100% avoid the people that you worked with. It'd be, like, super easy. But here I'm just like "uh... well..." 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  25:12 

You really have to be thinking, like, 10 years ahead, if you're going to be working with that person again, things like that. I see.  

Juls Budau  25:18 

Yeah, exactly. Or, like, if I'm gonna, like, not like. I try not to, like, let things like, negatively impact, like, the projects. Do you know what I mean?  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  25:34 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  25:34 

Like, "oh, well, that was unfair. And that was, like, kind of fucked up. However, I think that this service that, like, the peer group is like running. I don't want that to stop, not exist. So I'm just gonna, like, let it go." 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  25:49 

Are there are a lot of peer workers, do you feel in Prince George, in relation to how many jobs there are? 

Juls Budau  25:58 

Um...Like, a little bit, but then it's, at the same time, like, especially kind of like, administrative, like, managerial type roles in these organizations, there's, like, not a lot of people who can do it, even though it's like. And that's somewhat just a matter of like, will, be willing and wanting to do it and be someone that, like, consistently has like a phone, a computer, and a car.  You know what I mean? Just even, just the access to resources. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  26:01 

Yeah.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  26:06 

Mhhmm. 

Juls Budau  26:08 

Like, I feel like there's actually, like, there needs to be like, more people like that doing, like, the kind of like, administrative work within, like, drug user groups. But then also, it's like, the way that grants are run and the way that some people, like, write grants or like, for like, people often, like, forget about that aspect when -- 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  26:54 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  26:55 

offering or like writing grants that you need to, like, pay someone to, like, be in charge all the time. Or like on-call or like, you know? 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  27:08 

Yeah, I see. Um, not sure if this question directly relates to you. But it's, it's asking, do you think that housing challenges, even if it's in relation to having to take in your co-workers and things like that, do you think that would ever impact your career trajectory? Would you ever envision switching career paths to address this housing challenge? 

Juls Budau  27:36 

I think it does, because like, you know, I'm, I'm like, almost finished my Master's of Social Work. And people are like, 'come back to Vancouver, like, this place is hiring, this place is hiring.' And I'm just like, I can't, like where would I?  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  27:50 

Mhmm 

Juls Budau  27:51 

Like, unless like, it was like someone I knew lived somewhere. And they were like, giving it up or like, passing on the lease. Like, there's just, I just couldn't move to Vancouver right now. And also I can't deal with, like, commuting is not really, like, an option for me.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  28:09 

Mhmm.  

Juls Budau  28:10 

It's just like to [indiscernible] so. But like, luckily, I mean, there's always, like, work. I always have like backup towns in my head. I'm just like, "okay, like, there's like too much conflict in Prince George" or like, you know, the cops start harassing me too much or something like that. And I'm just like," okay like, there's like Quesnel and there's Smithers, or even Terrace," like, have as like back up. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  28:39 

Mhmm. Would you have changed the demographic you're working with? Would you work with children? Or would you continue working with drug users in the future? 

Juls Budau  28:48 

I don't think I know [indiscernible] I will always work with drug users, at least that's like, yeah. I don't see myself changing that. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  28:59 

Yeah, so those are all the questions about housing. So the next section is about how much access you have in referring individuals to other resources. So referring people you work with to doctors and things like that. So do you experience challenges when it comes to referring individuals you work with to resources in the community?  

Juls Budau  29:27 

Oh, yes, 100%. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  29:30 

What kind of challenges do you face?  

Juls Budau  29:32 

Well like, for instance, like, there's not even. Like, there's sort of like one walk-in clinic downtown, kind of. It's like the addictions clinic that just has nurses. 

Juls Budau  29:45 

When things are, when people just have these, like, medical issues that should be addressed. Like, it could be like, an infected wound or like, you feel like maybe they have like, pneumonia or bronchitis or something like. Like the, there's one walk-in clinic that isn't like terribly far but it's like, they do get treated pretty badly, so it's like, if they don't have someone to go with them then they, like, probably won't go. And so it's actually, like, kind of hard for people to even get just, like, kind of basic medical things if they aren't --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  30:22 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  30:22 

like, these like two specific clinics that like, have waitlists and like a lot of people are, but a lot of people aren't, you know?  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  30:31 

Yeah. 

Juls Budau  30:31 

And then like, like housing, of course. Like we're just, like, waiting for more housing to open up in Prince George. Even like, in the winter, like, we would, the trailer, we get so full so I would like leave, like, a list of shelters for the night staff to be, like, if it gets --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  30:36 

mhmm --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  30:36 

Mhmm. 

Juls Budau  30:45 

really full you could call the shelters and see if there's a bed and then call this, like, outreach van to, like, drive them there.  But like, nobody wanted to go because everyone's, like, banned from homeless shelters or  --

 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  31:04

Oh, okay... --

Juls Budau  31:04 

and like now I realise it's, like, to access like, any of the shelters you either have to like, give up, you have to like, give up your drugs or even like, your pipes and your, and like, so it's like, your pipe will have like, like the pipe or like, a lot of like, resin. So it's like, a lot of like, like many more hits that people can smoke --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  31:15 

 I see... --

Juls Budau  31:31 

giving it up means it's, like, next morning when they wake up at the shelter they have nothing to make themselves unsick, so it's like this whole other process --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  31:41 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  31:41 

'cause we have no actual, like, harm reduction shelter in Prince George even though there's, like, harm reduction housing. Um... Even, so you, safe supply, like, people want to be on safe supply, there's nowhere to get safe supply. Besides like, there's like, there's a First Nations virtual prescriber line but it's like, has like a lot of like, steps to it. That can be kind of, like, difficult. Like detox, good luck. We call. We call and then they say that they won't have a bed and maybe you'll, you'll see them next day and we'll get you to call  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  32:20 

mhmm 

Juls Budau  32:26 

and after that, like they probably have like moved on from that idea. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  32:34 

Are there, I'm guessing it's hard. But are there any resources for mental health and things like that? That you can refer them to at all? 

Juls Budau  32:49 

No, well that's, like, another annoying part. Like, we have no, like, connection to like, the Health Authority, like, mental health teams. Like there's  --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  32:56 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  32:56 

a little bit. We have, like, wellness workers from like, different agencies who like, come by, like, sometimes or like, we can call them like, once in a while. But like, actually, like, mental health resources, like, like specifically like, probably not, unless. Until someone is, like, so sick that they're, like, admitted to the psych ward against their will and then, like, maybe their meds will be stabilised and they'll be in there for, like, two weeks --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  33:22 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  33:23 

they'll be right out back onto the street and then you know...Um... Yeah, mental health is like a big one for sure. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  33:36 

Um, you did touch on this a little bit. But could you describe a time when this happened, like a specific instance and how you dealt with it? In terms of the difficulty of referring someone to community resources? 

Juls Budau  33:53 

Yeah, like, sometimes someone who will have, like, such a bad infection. And then you know, there's a few people who I could text, like, there's one nurse that volunteers and maybe, like, maybe she's not working on that day and then she'll like, come down. So it's like, you sort of have these, like things, like, on hand and like, sometimes things work out, but often it's like, they just, they just don't and then it's like --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  34:15 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  34:17 

you have to wait until it's, like, critically like, impacted their life and they're, like, passing out from sepsis and only then can you, well, can you call an ambulance because they won't go if they're conscious. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  34:31 

So how do you normally treat those things? You guys just have to do it on your own? 

Juls Budau  34:38 

Like, how do we? Like, there are some people on staff who will, like, change bandages and stuff. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  34:44 

Mhmm.  

Juls Budau  34:44 

I'm actually pretty squeamish myself so that's kind of like depends on me. Like, some people are, some people do have clinics that they go to so --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  34:57 

okay -- 

Juls Budau  34:57 

that stuff gets dealt with --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  35:04 

Um...This question might be very self-explanatory, but are these challenges isolated or systemic in your view? And why? 

Juls Budau  35:15 

Yeah, like, obviously systemic. It's just actually interesting, like, how like, little there is in this community. Like, even just like, more like, they're like, a lot of like, good services, like, up to the age of like 24. And then after that it's like, no, no more mental health care, or like, drop in centres where people are nice to you for you. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  35:46 

Why do you think that is? 

Juls Budau  35:48 

I don't know, there's like, more like, funding for, like, youth. But it's like, with the understanding that, like, you know, people like age out care, like group homes, and they don't have, like, anywhere to go, but it's like, but those youth, like, become adults, and --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  36:07 

mhmm -- 

Juls Budau  36:07 

just because, like, you're 26, or maybe these people, like, aged out of foster care or whatever, when they weren't when they didn't have these resources, and now they're like, homeless and like nowhere to do their laundry.  

 Charisma Crystal Thomas  36:19 

Yeah... Yeah, that's odd that they just think that you can't have a mental health crisis after you become an adult.  

Juls Budau  36:33 

Yeah. It's like, the Foundry is a good model. Like, once your 25? Like? No. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  36:43 

Do you think there are any ways we can address this? Is there anything you have done in your own experience to address these challenges? 

Juls Budau  36:54 

I mean, it's like, for some stuff, you know, we tried to get, like, do like, like, wound care sessions, like, at the trailer, like try, always tried to, like, collaborate with like, new prescribers. Like figure out, like, new systems of like getting safe supply, or even like Methadone and Suboxone? Like, the housing thing is, like, hard, though, because it's like, we don't have any impact on, like, the housing supply. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  37:28 

Did you face any of these challenges yourself when you were younger? In terms of finding resources that could help any challenges you faced as a youth? 

Juls Budau  37:39 

Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, definitely, like housing challenges, like, a little bit of time, living unhoused. Having access to a doctor, although, like, I remember, there was like, a clinic that I could go to until I, like, turned 25. And that was good. But like, and then when I turned 25, um, and I was, like, hit by a car -- 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  38:07 

oh my --

Juls Budau  38:08 

went to like, like, navigate or, like, help me navigate that. I was, like, in crisis, and I have, like, persisting injuries, like to this day, because --

Charisma Crystal Thomas  38:19 

mhmm -- 

Juls Budau  38:22 

because I literally, I needed, like, a case manager, which I did not have, you know? 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  38:28 

You also mentioned that you had a learning disability when you were younger. Is that right? 

Juls Budau  38:38 

Um, I have autism. Which like --  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  38:42 

mhmm. Oh sorry, that's not a learning disability. 

Juls Budau  38:45 

But I mean, there are a lot of learning disabilities, like associated with that. So for me, it's like, I... I always forget what it's called. I think it's like dysgraphia, but it's like, it's like dyslexia but about spatial things, if that makes sense. 

Juls Budau  39:01 

Oh, I see. Yeah.  

Juls Budau  39:02 

It's like, and it's like, that was always just, like, a quirk until I realised I, like, had autism and, like, researched more or like, looked up? Oh, yeah, hyperlexia. So that's like, when I like taught myself how to read when I was three. And I was always like, 'Oh, I'm such a quirky kid.' Like I could read. Like, when I was five I could like read a novel but I like couldn't tie my shoes or a cut a circle. And that's actually like, a very specific stereotype. Especially like, like the Wikipedia will be like, example, "a child can read a novel but not tie their shoes or cut, use scissors." I'm like -- 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  39:40 

mhmm --

Juls Budau  39:41 

like, that like, combo. So yeah. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  39:49 

That's interesting. So did you feel like it gave you a lot of advantages in life as well in certain aspects? 

Juls Budau  39:56 

Yeah, totally. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  39:57 

Mhmm. Let me see. Okay, so... Oh, where I was going with that question was did you get any resources when you were in school?  

Juls Budau  40:11 

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  40:17 

Was it something your parents as well addressed, or? 

Juls Budau  40:19 

I don't know, no. Um, but in some ways, like I did, I did function really well. Especially like, like with, I have like, it's a very common, like, ADHD, autism, like crossover that was, like, associated with, like, hyperlexia. Or like a lot of people in academia have that. But I functioned really well in high school, but that's like, because I, that's how I thrive if I, like, you know, if I lived a life where like, I woke up, and I like, ate some groceries that someone else bought for me, and then I, like, went to my office and everything was split into six tasks with, like, breaks in between, and then like, a designated, like, lunch break, and then you're off at like, 2:15.  

Juls Budau  40:23 

Live your life and, like, hang out with your friends and maybe do some homework. Like that, I would be thriving, if my life was structured like that, you know what I mean? And like, everything split into, like, little tiny assignments, and like different modules, right? So like, when I was, like, especially when I, like, smoked pot every day, I was like straight A's like, like, excelled. Like-- 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  41:11 

Mhmm. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  41:13 

How do you feel your job works with that aspect of your life? Because it's not very predictable.  

Juls Budau  41:47 

It's not very predictable. And sometimes I, like, thrive, like it's like, I like, thrive in chaos. 

Juls Budau  41:53 

It was like the, the ADHD me, like, thrives in chaos. But then like the autistic me, like, needs more like, structure and boundaries, or like, expectations. And like, right now I'm, like, just working like, a little bit. And I'm like, trying to work on my thesis. I'm like, I'm like "today, I'm like, I'm going to work on my thesis." And I just like I didn't, like I just like, like, I'll just run some errands first and then do some laundry. And maybe I'll take Teddy for a walk. And... 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  41:53 

Mhmm.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  42:28 

Are you close? When do you graduate? When is your thesis due? 

Juls Budau  42:34 

I need to have it done by the end of the summer? I can't pay. Like, any more tuition. I can't, like it's, I mean, I can but it's just ridiculous. Like I could write it. And I feel like I've written like the most. Like I wrote a draft of my findings chapter which is, like, the longest and like, most complicated one, right? It was like 35 pages. Like, I honestly feel like I could, if I actually did work on it every day, like, I would finish it by the end of the month. But I like don't... 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  43:12 

Like, what is your thesis focusing on? Have you, I feel like you mentioned it before?  

Juls Budau  43:17 

It's on prescribed stimulant safe supply.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  43:21 

Ah, okay. 

Juls Budau  43:22 

So it's, like, interviews with people who used it, who they felt like it worked. That's just like, it's literally just ADHD medication, prescribed sometimes that really high doses, but not always -- 

Juls Budau  43:34 

especially for, like, people for cocaine or meth addictions. And then it was, like, the focus is on like, how they measure it working, which, as like the juxtaposition to the clinical trials. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  43:34 

Mhmm 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  43:47 

It's very interesting. Good luck. That's so big. I hope you can-- 

Juls Budau  43:53 

I know, I know! 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  43:55 

Hope it works with the timeline you set. Yeah. 

Juls Budau  43:58 

Yeah.  

Charisma Crystal Thomas  44:00 

Yeah, so we finished this section, we only have one more section that we can do next week, which is exposure to death and trauma and kind of how you face those challenges. In terms of the art aspect, I wanted to move away from just kind of doing it in a sense of like, art therapy with a very intense drawing of something. So I felt through talking to you that you were educating people on a lot of misconceptions, and I wanted to create, and also I see that you have a lot of tattoos. So I wanted to create, sort of like a flash, like, a tattoo flash sheet with different stories you've told and different misconceptions that you pointed out. So that's what I'm working on. And then I will reach out to you for more information and also run all the sketches by you. So if you feel like you want anything changed or omitted, completely fine. Yeah. 

Juls Budau  45:13 

That sounds really cool. That's a really cool idea. 

Charisma Crystal Thomas  45:15 

Yeah, I, I think if it's nice because yeah, from I'm talking to you, it, I got a lot of out of it. And I'm like, it was a very educational thing for me. So I wanted to do something that would be educational for people who interact with this, a lot of like, government workers and funders who do it so we get to point out the misconceptions they have through the art. 

Juls Budau  45:42 

Yeah, that's, that's super awesome. Cool. 

Caitlin Burritt  45:45 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.