Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC. 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Giorgia Ricciardi and Charisma Crystal Thomas interview Juls Budau about financial insecurity and receiving respect and recognition at work. Juls believes she is not paid highly enough for her peer work and explains that she, like many peers is paid through grant funding. Juls questions if peer work is a sustainable career or whether she will need to move into an adjacent field like social work. Juls also provides examples of times she's felt respected and disrespected while doing her job and describes the challenges of doing peer work in a small, conservative community. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  02:09 

But how are you both? How were your weekends?  

Juls Budau  02:12 

I don't really have weekends, so. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  02:16 

How was your Saturday, Sunday? 

Juls Budau  02:21 

I like, so I'm like the week more, like me and my boss. Like, I'm the site manager where I work. But my boss like, does the managing too so, but she has her kids on the weekend. More kids on the weekend. So I do, I work on the weekends. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  02:41 

Do you get days off, I guess that'd be in the middle of the week, then? 

Juls Budau  02:45 

Yeah, I think that my days off is in the middle of the week. Yeah, it's like all day everyone's just been like "how was your weekend?" I was "like, oh, it's four days of extremely mentally ill people having no other supports, but peer staff in a small trailer." 

Giorgia Ricciardi  03:04 

That's exhausting. Was it, was it - was it busy this weekend with it, like, with it being Easter and the long weekend?   

Juls Budau  03:14 

Yeah, it was super busy because everything else was closed and we're just open 24 hours, no matter what. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  03:19 

Yeah, do you tend to see upticks around holidays? 

Juls Budau  03:28 

I don't know, I feel like it was, like, not that many, I think like with any social service, like, it's hard for word to get around and for people --

Giorgia Ricciardi  03:35 

right --

Juls Budau  03:35 

to like, trust it at first. So like, I feel like it's just been the last month that it's gotten super, super, super busy. Because like, I don't remember what happened on Christmas. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  03:49 

What do you think has happened in the last month to make it so busy? 

Juls Budau  03:53 

I think just more people have like... because, like, I managed another safe injection site, when it just opened, and like, it was pretty slow. Like. Was just like, takes a while for people to, like, yeah like, to like, trust something new or like... know that it's like, okay. Actually, and that's, so like, a lot of the unhoused population here, there - there's just, like a lot of like, hidden homelessness in the winter. Like, people do have places that they can stay, so people will, like, people are more likely to, like, just stay with friends. Or family --

Giorgia Ricciardi  04:47 

right -- 

Juls Budau  04:47 

like when it's really cold. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  04:49 

And leave potentially? 

Juls Budau  04:51 

And like, and I'm like that too. Like, if I would like, you know, if I have, like, friends or family that don't have a place to go in the winter, you know, it's like, below freezing, sometimes as cold as minus 40? Like, I'm like --  

Giorgia Ricciardi  05:05 

yeah -- 

Juls Budau  05:05 

yeah, of course, like, then. So as it gets better, as the weather gets nicer, and people just get um, what's the word I'm looking for? Like cabin fever, you know? Like, everyone's kind of like stuck together. So people like, are outside more once it starts getting nicer, because they didn't have a real place to live. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  05:25 

Right, right. Or maybe do? Do a lot of people come down to Vancouver in the winter, because it's more mild, and then go back up? 

Juls Budau 05:31 

Um... I haven't thought of that. I know there is a little bit of migration between Prince George and Vancouver, but if it's like that, I don't know. I think people are more likely to go to their home communities in the winter. But like, so that it, then like, that's like another contributing problem is that there's so much, like, overcrowding in, like, First Nations communities. Which, like, has to do with the way that, like, housing is funded. Because on reserves you can't just, like, get out a mortgage and build a house. you have to wait until you get funding from INAC so it's, it has, like, contributed to this, like, massive like, like, under - yeah, under-housing on reserves. So and then yeah, so at the same [time], so like, in the winter people could, like, sort of crowd more in and and then in the summer they're, like, not that it's the summer here yet... 

Giorgia Ricciardi  06:32 

It's not, I guess it's not minus 40 anymore? Yeah. 

Juls Budau  06:38 

Exactly. It's like 5.  

Giorgia Ricciardi  06:39 

It's still chilly though, still very chilly.  

Juls Budau  06:43 

Yeah. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  06:44 

Well, today I was thinking of going through some of the questions that we have on financial insecurity and lack of respect and recognition at work, does that sound okay to you? 

Juls Budau  06:56 

Mhmm. Sure. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  06:58 

So the first question that I've got for you today is, do you - do you feel that you receive enough financial compensation for the work that you do? 

Juls Budau  07:09 

No, absolutely not. And like, I don't, but it's not like the organization that I work for, like, being like, greedy, or it's like. It's like, there's, like, benefits and negatives to, like, these like, small organizations like ours, because, you know, we're like, extremely flexible, and we're like, we really truly, like, meet people where we are at, and so on, and so on. But the grants are small and, like, and then my. And then I think that sometimes too, like, when these grants are written, or like, you know, as we like, build more and more, like, my boss who, like, writes these grants, kind of like, forgets about the, you know, like management, like --


Giorgia Ricciardi  08:08

right --


Juls Budau  08:08

the cost of managing all these things. Also every single other person is on welfare or disability --


Giorgia Ricciardi  08:14

okay --


Juls Budau  08:14

except me.


Giorgia Ricciardi  08:14

Wow, okay --


Juls Budau  08:15

And so, like, I think that other people, like, care a little bit less than me, like, like, no, this is the only money I get, and I do like, you know, like stuff like this. And I have like other like, freelance work that I do. But, you know? 

Giorgia Ricciardi  08:29 

Yeah, it's definitely frustrating to feel like you're not earning enough from, from what should be your main source of income. 

Juls Budau  08:35 

Yeah, totally. And I'm just sort of being patient, like, I know that she has, like, and like, I brought up these concerns. And we've, we've like, applied for some grants for like, like, peer coordination and like, manager stuff, and to, like, kind of top up people's wages and things like that. So we'll see. It's, like, kind of frustrating. I know - she probably will never see this. But like, it was like, Quesnel, it's an organization in Quesnel which is like an hour south of here. And they've like, offered me, like, the same job with, like, better boundaries of hours. And like, twice as much pay, and I'm like.. hmmmm... 

Giorgia Ricciardi  09:17 

That's, yeah. It's tempting. Would that be a move then for you or a commute? 

Juls Budau  09:25 

That would be a move. Yeah, I can't deal with commuting. I couldn't do, like, a highway commute or anything. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  09:34 

So the funding that your organization receives, is that, like, is that grassroots? Or is it provincial or federal? Or a mix of all of those? Where do you, where do you source your funding? 

Juls Budau  09:49 

Yeah, it's totally a mix. Um. So where do we get funding from? So we get some provincial funding, the provincial peer network or like, Community Action Initiative, [indiscernible]. Which is like, the CAI, Community Action Initiative is like, through the Canadian Mental Health Association, and they distribute funds to, like, peer drug user groups in the province. Um, and then we received this really big grant from the Law Society of BC --


Giorgia Ricciardi  10:30

awesome --


Juls Budau 10:30

which is really cool. And then we just received our first grant from Northern Health.


Giorgia Ricciardi  10:44

That's awesome.


Juls Budau 10:44

Which is pretty crazy. So yeah, it's like, and then I think there are some other things and I should know this because I'm the treasurer. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  10:52 

That's okay. I know, it's really hard to keep track of all these things. I get it. I work in a non-profit organization, and it can be hard. 

 
Juls Budau  10:59

And yeah. So it's, like, many different grants, like --


Giorgia Ricciardi  11:03

yeah --


Juls Budau  11:03

parsed together. And like, so it's like, right now for, like, staffing the trailer we have funding to have a staff there 24 hours a day, but just one staff. And so we decided that, pretty early on that it was, like, unsafe to have one staff on for many hours a day. So, we have two staff on at night, so we all volunteer a third of our time to make that work right now.

Giorgia Ricciardi  11:35 

Okay, wow. 

Juls Budau  11:37 

But I mean, so it's like, it's like, the kind of thing, like, if I had another job, or if I was like, on EI or something, I would volunteer there.


Giorgia Ricciardi  11:47 

Yeah. 

Juls Budau  11:47

You know what I mean? I would just volunteer all of my hours. And like, I'm the treasurer, so I know that it's not like my boss is, like, giving all the money to herself --

Giorgia Ricciardi  11:54 

Yeah. 

Juls Budau  11:54 

 like, I know that. In fact she, like, gets paid less than us. Actually, the organization owes her $30,000.


Giorgia Ricciardi  12:03

Holy...

Juls Budau  12:04

Because of, like, things that she just paid for herself, you know what I mean? 

Giorgia Ricciardi  12:05 

I guess that must be especially, like, stressful and difficult right now in the economy that, and you know, the recession that we're going through with high inflation rates. 

Juls Budau  12:15 

Yeah totally. Like, I'm lucky I have really, so I have a really low cost of living. Like, because I have a roommate. So I've been splitting like a $1,000 apartment with a roommate, and now my boyfriend lives with us too now. So he also, like, contributes to rent and bills. And then, you know, my car is paid for. I just don't, you know. Overall, my cost of living is really low. So it's like, not too crazy, but definitely, I should be paid more money, for sure.  

Giorgia Ricciardi  12:53 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just given, you know, the challenges and stressors that you face every day at work. So -- 

Juls Budau  13:04 

yeah -- 

Giorgia Ricciardi  13:04 

so -- 

Juls Budau  13:05 

But at the same time, I do choose, I choose this. Because I, like, you know, I could be making more money working for, like, a different thing. You know, I could work in a shelter. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  13:19 

Yeah, but you, you know, like, it still is, but what you want to do, right? You're following, like, this is like your life's work. 

Juls Budau  13:27 

Totally.  

Giorgia Ricciardi  13:29 

Um, it doesn't sound like you necessarily have challenges paying for food or housing, with the income that you're getting, but you're definitely noticing that it's, it's tight. Is that correct? 

Juls Budau  13:44 

Like, I don't have challenges paying for food and housing, but at the same time, I like, have like, I'm 39 and I have a roommate. Like, we live in a two bedroom apartment with three people. I'm not, I'm certainly not saving any money. You know, there's nothing leftover. I'm, like, doing okay --

Giorgia Ricciardi  14:08 

right --

Juls Budau  14:08 

but you know, it's not exactly where I expected to be in my life. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  14:14 

Right, and in Prince George too, I expect that the cost of living would be lower than a place like Vancouver too, so, you'd hope, you'd hope that living in a smaller community you'd be able to save more. 

Juls Budau  14:25 

Like a little bit, but well, that's like a thing too. I like, my rent is really cheap. And I like... like, I live in an apartment and I do that because I hate living outside, I hate when people knock on my door. And I know that I can't get reno-evicted, like, they would have to move me into another building, right? But if I got, like, evicted, evicted for some reason, like, I got told I would get a warning, because I had a sticker on my door that said, like, "emergency Naloxone here." 

Giorgia Ricciardi  15:02 

What?! 

Juls Budau  15:03 

And just, like, things like that, and then even, like, having my boyfriend live here is like, like risky, you know? He really has to, like, make himself scarce. And if I got evicted, like, I don't know what, what I would do because now rent here is like Vancouver just a few years ago. Like, a one bedroom here is, like, $1400 now. It's like... It's fucking Prince George. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  15:27 

That's just nuts... Yeah, we're in a massive housing crisis. 

Juls Budau  15:30 

Yeah, like, the housing crisis is all over, like, the housing crisis is in Terrance, it's in Houston, it's in Smithers. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  15:41 

Um, so, sorry. Can you just elaborate on this sticker on your door situation? What was the problem there? 

Juls Budau  15:52 

I, um... Yeah, I put a a sticker on my door that said "emergency Naloxone here" because it's Prince George. We have a lot of fucking overdoses, especially like, overdoses like, happen outside. I imagine that they happen in other people's apartments, like, I don't know. And yeah, I ordered something else. There's like this Etsy shop PinPenMerger where you get lots of like harm reduction like merchandise. And she sent me some of those and I just put it on my door and yeah, I got a fuckin' text from my landlord. Even the building manager. And I was just like, and that was the thing. It's like, I'm not going to push it --


Giorgia Ricciardi  16:41

yeah --


Juls Budau  16:42

because I don't want to lose my housing. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  16:42 

I guess the question is, is that the same for anybody who puts any sticker on their door? Is it just a no sticker on your door apartment building? 

Juls Budau  16:51 

I know, right? Yeah, like, two cats inside, not allowed, not allowed. No emergency notices. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  17:03 

I'm sorry that happened. That is frustrating. That's really frustrating. 

Juls Budau  17:10 

The funny thing is I, like, put it on my Twitter. And I, like, crossed, like, blocked out his name on the top. And I forgot that he signs his texts. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  17:21 

Oh no. 

Juls Budau  17:22 

So it's like, like two blocks, and then the end, it's like [beeped out name], and I forgot when I posted it. And all these people were, like, fucking, it got so, like, literally, it was like one of those things that went, not like viral. But you know, had like, it got a little bit big. More than like most of my tweets, which is like 20 likes, right? And then it was like, all these people --


Giorgia Ricciardi  17:22 

Oh no! --

Juls Budau  17:22 

are like "fuck you [beeped out name], don't be an [beeped out name]." And I was like "oh..." I don't want to take this down but I really hope he doesn't see this. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  17:22 

They're not wrong, but... 

Juls Budau  17:34 

I know, I know, right? Oh like, I didn't say it...I'm exhausted. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  18:03 

Oh, man. That's pretty funny. I mean, come on. Okay, moving. Moving on from [beeped out name], I'm just wondering, just wondering if your current financial compensation - like if you think that current financial compensation is, like, sustainable for you long term? Or if you're thinking that you might have to move into something that earns you more, more money? 

Juls Budau  18:37 

Yeah, I'm actually, like, not sure. Um...Um, I mean, this is like what I want to do. And I'm, like, trying to think of ways to, like, stay involved. But I'm like, "oh, like, what if I got a job as a social worker for, like, an adjacent agency" that like, really supports like, like, Carrier Sekani Family Services, or [something], you know? Like an Indigenous-focused, like, mental health, you know, that kind of thing? And like Carrier Sekani, that's like a conglomeration of like, 11 different nations here in the north and they, like, pool together, their like, money and resources to provide a lot of good, like, mental health resources. And they were, like, thinking about getting a trailer at Moccasin Flats anyway, so there's that or, like, moving to Quesnel and working for that organization. I mean, I do think about it. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  19:40 

I understand very much. That, that must be a very difficult decision to make. So I guess, okay, I have two follow up questions to that. So one of them is that you mentioned that you currently work with the Indigenous community. Is that your goal to continue, like, to work primarily with the Indigenous community? 

Juls Budau  20:01 

Like, so the organization that I would work for would be yeah, I mean, like, you can't really, I don't think you can really work in, like, overdose prevention and, like, peer work, or, like, work with drug users, without working with, like, the First Nations community, especially in the north, like Prince George has the highest urban Indigenous population in the province, it's like 16%, and whereas, like, Vancouver's like, 2%, right? But of course, it's a lot higher on the Downtown Eastside, it just, like, impacts - and as we know, like, it impacts First Nations people more than any other group. And then also, like, especially the way, like, organizations are run, like, social services, I just find that, like, Indigenous-focused ones are a lot better. You know what I mean? It's like, more based on like, being like, low barrier, and like, reciprocity and things like that. And like, I've never, even though I'm white, like, no one's, you know, if you show up with the right attitude, like, nobody will ever say that you don't belong working there. You know? 

Giorgia Ricciardi  21:16 

Okay. And then, so, you're getting your Master's in Social Work right now, correct? So, um, it sounds like you're still not actually sure, though, if you want to continue on the social work path, or continue, kind of, in the career path that you're on right now. What are the key differences between the two? 

Juls Budau  21:39 

Oh, like um, yeah, that's a really good question... Um. Like, can I make social work wages doing exactly what I do? Yeah, I might have to, like, work with something, like, a little bit adjacent to where I work now, I think, to, like, make that kind of. So it's like, the difference now is, like, I work in, in peer work, and like, everybody makes the same and I like that. But I do feel like I do and will have some, like, more like, professional skills that could be used. Or like, one thing that I could do is, like, work, continuing working with UNDU, and then also working, like, as a casual social worker for, like, one of the health authorities or somewhere else so that it's like, you know, I get a few days working, like, making like, $30 to $40 an hour and then, like, some days making $25 an hour --

Giorgia Ricciardi  22:53

right, okay, yeah --


Juls Budau  22:53
 
or $20 or $15 right now. But it'll, it'll, I like truly believe that it, like, will get better and like, so like, jobs burn me out so much. And like, this job doesn't, even though I'm not getting paid very much.  

Giorgia Ricciardi  23:08 

This job doesn't burn you out? 

Juls Budau  23:10 

So that's why - yeah, it doesn't. I get exhausted. And like, it's really. And I was, like, explaining today, like, I like managing, I love managing the trailer. I can't really work long shifts in the trailer. It's, like, one room, especially if you're working alone. It's, like, hard to leave. Even going to the bathroom is, like, difficult. You have to have, like, the right person to come in. And you'd be like, "oh, can you watch things for a second?" Because we have porta potties outside. And like, I just get really, like, overstimulated and cranky if I'm, like, in that one room with, like, all the people for too long. But like, I don't know, like, today I worked. I worked six hours today. And it was, like, you know, people come in and you just give them harm reduction stuff, they, like, hang out, vape some drugs. All these people came in with, like, donations today, it was, like, really nice. And like, someone... Like, someone came in and dropped off these, like, Easter baskets full of those, like, marshmallow ice cream cones, you know what I mean? And that was, it was nice, because I was thinking about how, like, nobody around the trailer got to do anything Easter-y, like, we kind of, we didn't plan anything. And like, we're just like, really busy.  

Juls Budau  24:40 

And so that was really nice. And then she also lent me this thing. It was like a sign that was, like, don't forget that Jesus loves you. She's like "I made it so you could put it up." And like, you know, I'm not, like, super pro-Christianity, but I just thought. She was like "I just want everyone here to know that, like, they're valuable and their lives have worth and they're special, and people care about them." And I was like, that's so nice. And then she was telling me about how she was, like, one of five heroin addicts in Prince George in the 60s.  

Giorgia Ricciardi  25:11 

Whoa. 

Juls Budau  25:11 

So crazy. Right? So just, like, things like that.  And then, like, this other lady came by later and she, like, dropped off all these, like, Easter leftovers and then, like, and buns and so, like, my coworker, who was just kind of hanging out there, like, made us all, like, like, turkey dinner leftover sandwiches and we didn't have cranberry sauce so we just used our blueberry jam and it was, like, you know, it was delicious. And it was nice and, and things like that, and like... Like, the last job that I worked, there were days where, like, I honestly just did very little and they were, like, very long shifts. And I was really, really burned out at the end. And like, I think also, like, like maintaining, like, I don't like a workplace where it's, like, "I'm the professional and you are the client," so. And, or, like, my boss is gonna, like, take me aside and be like "um, you forgot to brush your hair today."


Giorgia Ricciardi  26:24 

Yeah, that kind of casual nature?


Juls Budau  26:24

You know, things like that. Like I, I find, like, keeping up like, being like, like, super professional is, like, and like, having to get up and, like, do a lot of like... Like, at my old job I would, like, kind of spend, like, the whole day on Friday, like, getting ready for my work weekend. Because I felt like I had to, like, just like, make sure that my hair is good. And then I had, like, three outfits, like, picked out for the weekend that were, like, appropriate and like, professional, but not too professional and like, I just feel like at this job, like, I just show up as myself. And like, we get that from a lot of people, we like. We just like, it was so funny, I like called one of the shelters, because one of our employees didn't show up and he, like, stays there. And this woman just inserted, she was, like, talking. She just, like, started talking, like, so much. And I was like, "oh yeah, we like volunteer our hours here." And she was like, she was like, "I want to come, I'll volunteer. I'll come down there." And now she, like, wants to, like, work with us. Even though it's, like, you know, like I said, like, I can work in [a] shelter and make, like, twice as more, only because we, like, make so little and volunteer part of our hours 

Juls Budau  27:41 

But she has, like, told my boss the same thing where she, like, just feels like she can be, like, more herself there. And like, that you're really truly doing, like, ethical work. In the shelters you have to, like, kick people out if you catch them, like, doing drugs inside and stuff. So like, yeah, there are no, there's no, like, actual harm reduction shelters here. And it's, like... It's so hard. It was like, we had someone overdose, like, week and a half ago. And it was, like, he wanted to go to the shelter and he wanted to sleep. But in order for him to do that, he would have to hand in his pipes, which they would just throw out. And you know there's, like, with the pipe, like, you know your substance is in it or, like, the resin or whatever. Like, you throw out your pipe, you need a new pipe or you, it's like, you know, like $10-$20 of drugs still in there. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  28:45 

Yeah, and then, like the withdrawals too, like...

Juls Budau  28:47 

So instead of going to the shelter, like, getting - what's that? 

Giorgia Ricciardi  28:51 

Well, I was just gonna say, like, like, just cutting somebody off like that doesn't actually sound helpful. Because if somebody is in a state of addiction, like, won't the withdrawals totally mess them up? Like is that? Is that actually helping anybody?  

Juls Budau  29:06 

I know, right? Yeah, like, why do you want people in withdrawal in your shelter? And like, BC housing has told us like, "oh, we can't tell the, like, the shelters, like, what policies they can have." But like, and then, and the shelters are like "oh we do this because our shelter staff, like, deserve to be safe." And there's, like, I don't understand why you think it's safer to have people go through a state of withdrawal. Like it's, people are gonna be, like, in distress and they're gonna be, like, fucking angry. And so then yeah, this like, guy, he want[ed], he does want to go to sleep and instead he, like, stays up all night. He goes back to the trailer, and just does drugs all night. And then he has this, like, horrific overdose. Like, while this other shelter, the shelter worker's just talking about her grandmother was coming to pick her up, and this guy walks out of the trailer just falls face first in the mud, like right in front of her grandmother's car. 

Juls Budau  30:02 

And so then we're, like, responding to the overdose. And like, I'm like, yelling at my boyfriend to, like, give him, like, rescue breaths with a mask. His mouth was full of mud and gravel, which I didn't realize. So then it was extremely difficult to give him oxygen. Um, yeah, he ended up having - getting, like, a lot of Narcan doses and then, like, went to the hospital and, like, slept for long. So, yeah, slept for a long time. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  30:30 

But he, he survived? He's okay? 

Juls Budau  30:32 

Many-- Yeah, he did survive. But um, yeah, I just feel like overdoses have been really... I mean, maybe they impacted people more before. And I just kind of know them a little more now. Like, it's like, yeah, people like, don't, they don't remember their overdoses. They don't remember the day that they overdosed. Like, at first, I was like, you know, there was this one woman, and I was, like, brought up an overdose she had in front of other people and I was feeling a little weird, because of, like, confidentiality. And she was just like, "what are you talking about?" I was like, "bro, that was bad overdose" - that was like, because she was just like puking out of her mouth and nose so we couldn't give her any oxygen. It was, like, horrifying. It was a horrifying experience. And she didn't remember at all. So now I'm like, when I see people, I like, remind them because, one, if they don't remember their overdoses, they're gonna think they're, like, indestructible. Like, you know what I mean? Be like no, overdose is a reality and that's happened to you, and like, when you have an overdose, you're like, more likely to have another one.  

Juls Budau  31:53 

Just because it's like, like, like, basically just because of, like, brain damage, you know? So now I'm just, like, walking and being like, "oh hey, remember when you almost died?" Like, I don't know, that's just like, I feel like I want to, like, bring it up, like, 'cause yeah, people need to remember or, like, need to know because they just, like, genuinely don't know or remember. I forget how I went on this tangent. The shelters... The shelters are bullshit. They stop people. And then today so that same guy, so even like, his, he has, like, a support worker who works for the same organization as that shelter and even him, he's like, trying to figure out a way to, like, make money on the side, like, having like, like a teenage, like, a forensic foster teen basically live with them.  

Juls Budau  32:52 

But then he was like, and "then I'll volunteer with you guys on my time off" because even he, like, sees how much it's just, like, bullshit because, so it's like now this kid like, it's, not really kid, but you know, he is not allowed in the trailer right now because he has bedbugs. But he won't go to, like, the drop in center that has, like, the shower. And whatever. Because again, he has to, like, hand in his pipes. So then it's like, I have to, like, call his worker and, like, you have to, like, make a plan and I'm just like, "okay, like, why don't you take the pipes and put them in your bag? Because they're not going to search you." Right? It's like we have to, like, do all this like, sneaky shit. And for what reason? 

Giorgia Ricciardi  33:35 

That's still, like, dehumanizing too, like, I'm sure that that, that that can't feel good to feel like you have to, like, for access to showers, which is just basic human hygiene and decency, to have access to, to feel you have to to sneak around. And yeah. At a place that's supposed to be supporting you too, like, to boot, you know? 

Juls Budau  33:59 

Yeah, exactly. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  34:02 

On the topic of feeling like you want to remind people of their overdose experiences, is there, like, stigma within the drug-using community of overdosing? Or is it, is it simply that, like, you blackout and so you don't remember and that's why you don't really talk about it? 

Juls Budau  34:30 

Like, people are blacking out, and they're having Benzo blackouts, like, so they don't remember, but there is a stigma. And it's, like, so fucking annoying. Like, people are like, "oh, that person like, can't handle their drugs" or blah blah blah, like, and I'm just like, "shut up, guy," it's like, one, like, there's no shame in having a reduced tolerance, is like if someone like, wants to quit. Like, that's, you know, people have good reasons to want to quit or, like, reduce their use. And like, things are like, really, like, unpredictable. And like, anybody can overdose, you know?  

Giorgia Ricciardi  35:11 

Yeah. 

Juls Budau  35:13 

One time I, like, responded to an overdose, in one of the Rain City heat shelters. So like, like, 1st and Commercial in Vancouver. And they used to, like, in the day, it was sort of like a drop in and, like, anybody could come in. And this guy who wasn't staying there was just, like, hanging out, like, had an overdose. And while we were responding to the overdose, like, a bunch of his, like, uncles were there and they're just, like, throwing water on him and, like, calling him a pussy, and I'm just like, "the fuck is happening right now?" That was a bad overdose. Like, we gave him, like, nine shots of Narcan. And like, he had to be taken away in a stretcher and he lived, but if you don't... 

Giorgia Ricciardi  35:55 

And that's not helpful from your community, or anyone. 

Juls Budau  36:00 

I know. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  36:03 

Yeah, that's, no. Okay, so I'm gonna jump into the category here of lack of respect and recognition at work. So, so, what I want to ask is, if you feel respected and recognized by people, by colleagues, and people who might, like, assist you in your work? 

Juls Budau  36:32 

It's such a mixed bag. Like, you know, it's like today like the social workers that work for Northern Health stopped by and they were just like, "oh, I was thinking of you," and like, thanks so much for what we do. And I like, had a meeting with my department head at school, about something else, and I was explaining, like, what I do and she was literally, like, "on behalf of, like, the social work profession, like, thank you, like, that's amazing." Like, what a great service, like, how important, right? And then um, on the flip side... There are people who think that, like, we are making things worse. Or... I mean, we were, like, like the cops, the cops came to our trailer on Thursday night and came in with, like, without a warrant, and they were, like, searching people and stuff. And basically saying that, like, like, [indiscernible] like, that people weren't allowed to be, like, using drugs in there. Like, we are not a designated OPS. But we are going to be. Like, we have a grant to run OPS services, right? 

Juls Budau  37:58 

However, between de-crim, and there's like, like, a ministerial order about EOPS, which is like, Episodic Overdose Prevention Services, from the Ministry of Health, and basically, it's like, social serve - like, sorry, like social service worker, workers and health care workers are encouraged but not required to observe people - their clients using drugs on a case by case basis. Like without, and like, without getting in trouble for the illegality of the interaction, right? So like, we are like. And as long as it's, like, you're not allowed to, like, advertise those services, but you can do that. So that's basically, like, between those two things, like, what we're doing is not really illegal, right? Like, nobody really has more than 2.5 grams. People are like, largely, like, unhoused and pretty poor, like, so. And then this cop was like, so like, my, the staff who was working called me and I was like, there. I took the time today and I was like "oh yeah, it took me like seven minutes to get there," put on pants and get there. It's amazing. And the they were just like, "we don't need a warrant, because it's not a permanent structure." 

Juls Budau  39:26 

And they were like, "I don't need, we're doing an investigation and we don't need to tell you what's happening, even though I'm like, I'm the manager here. And like, the staff was like, clear there. She was like, "I'm calling my boss, Juls, right now." And I was like, "put the cops on the phone, give them the phone" and like, I like watched the footage and she's, like, trying to hand them the phone. And they're like, "no," which is funny. And they were basically like, like, just had no idea about the legislation. They were like, "nobody can use drugs in a public place." Even, even though there's de-crim because of this, like, safe streets bylaw, which is not the safe streets, bylaw at all. The bylaw is that people can't use drugs in a, like, a street or sidewalk or park, right? Not a public place. And I was like, "what do you mean, public place? Like, what about?" I was like, "how about the needle exchange?" And they were like, "nope, they're not supposed to be using drugs there." And I was like, "what?" And he was like, "an overdose prevention site is very different from a safe consumption site." And I was just like, my head's gonna fucking explode, like, how do cops not know laws, right?  

Juls Budau  40:35 

You think the bare minimum is that they would know the, know laws like... Like, teach them? Like, [do] they get briefed? Like, I'm just like, we were told that, like, cops would be, like, getting education, about de-crim or whatever. But actually, he wouldn't show us with that education was. But it was just, like, he was like, "Oh, so you help people use noxious substances?" I just, like, I just didn't answer that question.


Giorgia Ricciardi  41:06

Wow...


Juls Budau  41:06

And he was like, "how many overdoses do you respond to in a day? How many dead bodies?" Like "not that many, sir, because I run an overdose prevention site" --  

Giorgia Ricciardi  41:15 

do you understand what my job is? Like? 

Juls Budau  41:17 

It's not stigmatise people and then retrieve their bodies from the ravine business. I like, you know and like, in my life, I've like, it's like, people think that what we do, like, enables people and it's just, like, so fucking, because like, I find that what really drives addiction is, like, people living in, like, secrecy and, like, we have, like, friends and, like, partners who use drugs and when you're just, like, have like... I always, like, have a boundary where I'm like, "you're not allowed to use, like, illicit street drugs, like, the street supply unless I'm there observing or you're at work or, like, in front of a trained responder." I'm like, "that's, that's, that's the rule," right? And then when you, like, make that rule, like people, like, when it's like, more normal, and they just have to do, like, one shot in front of you instead of, like, being like, "oh, I have to go do drugs," and then you like, hide somewhere and, like, do a bunch, you know? 

Giorgia Ricciardi  42:31 

Do you think that the cops would have responded differently to you, if you were, like, an, like officially a, a social worker as your your job title? 

Juls Budau  42:39 

They didn't ask. Like, I don't even know if they, like, knew what my name was, or like, what my job title was? So I don't know. But I think that they were, like - maybe. Because, so one, when I just, like, argued with him about legislation, and then I was like, I was like, "we're funded by the First Nations Health Authority." And then I was like, I was like, "oh, I'm not getting through to this cop." He's just like, rolling his eyes at me, arguing with me about things that I, like, fucking know. Like, this is, you know, this is my industry. I like, work and, like, research and, like, policy, like, and I was like, "okay, whatever, I'm just gonna go inside" and just, like, make sure that all the staff are okay, and see what's happening in there. And then, like, they literally - and then I was, like, panicking, I started reading this tweet in all caps being, like, "holy fuck, the cops are here, and they like, won't leave. And they're insisting that like, what we do is illegal. And that overdose prevention sites aren't allowed to have drug use," like, and then they'd actually left and I didn't notice. Which is, and like, I mean, we have a generator, which is very loud. So it actually, like, all three cop cars are gone. I've no idea which way they went. So like they left, like within a minute, all of them so. So I think that, like, you like, know, like, we're funded by the First Nations Health Authority. I think that having that, like, institutional backing, like, was really helpful. And then I think also, like, the First Nations Health Authority, like, "fuck you, buddy, you're gonna be called racist." Like you know? 

Giorgia Ricciardi  44:29 

Yeah, yeah. That very much kind of answers the next question that's on this list, which is, are there specific instances, specific instances you would like to talk about when you felt respected or disrespected? So, so since you you've, you've touched on what I can say, as an instance, where you were disrespected, do you want to share maybe about a time where, where you, were respected at work? What happened? And how did you feel and how did you respond? 

Juls Budau  45:02 

Well, I shared that before I was like, like, the head of my department, being like, "thank you," like, so, you know, I do get a lot of like, really positive feedback from like, a lot of people from like, you know, like, like, doctors, nurses, like not necessarily like. Like, a lot of people follow me on Twitter. Like, being like, "oh, it's so cool." Like overdose prevention services in Prince George, which is, like, a very conservative place. Like, it's not that easy. So it's like, you get a lot of respect. And then... I think a lot of times people are, like, "thanks for what you do." And I'm like, "okay, just give us money." But people do but, like, you know, like, people like community really does support us and, like, like, materially, especially, like, you know, I'm like, "we need coffee and peanut butter and jam," and like, people are, like, always pulling through so. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  46:09 

Okay, that's cool. So, so you accept donations like non perishables. Do you accept, like, clothing as well and blankets and, like, hygiene products? 

Juls Budau  46:19 

Blankets, sleeping bags, tarps, tents. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  46:27 

Do you find that there are any barriers to being treated with more respect in your, in your work? Like, do you feel do you feel reluctant or anxious or intimidated about asking to be treated with more respect in your, in your field? 

Juls Budau  46:46 

No... No, I think that I do try to demand a lot of respect. Like, I don't always get it. So it's like, I know what I'm doing is, like, like, true and like, ethical work. I think it can be, like, kind of alienating to, like, do something that is like considered extremely radical. And like, it's kind of like, the un-like[?], especially like a, in a conservative community like Prince George, where it is, like, really supported by a lot of people then really not supported by a lot of people. So it's like, always having to, like, push those boundaries. I feel like I'm compelled to. I know it's the right thing to do. But like, you know, but also being, like, the face of someone who was like, hated. Or like, what people, like blame, the face of, like, something that people, like, blame, especially because there's all this, like, far right, like, rhetoric right now about harm reduction. I mean, like, "oh, like, the woke NDP, and liberals just want to, like, flood the streets with dangerous drugs." And it's like, in our brain, it's like, and we know, like, "oh, you're, you're literally talking about like, like,  like, Dilaudid and Ritalin. Like, okay..." 

Juls Budau  48:37 

Um. And like, we know, in the industry that, like, the people who get those prescriptions and like them, it's like, extremely like, stabilizing. And if they, and even if they're selling them, the people who are buying them, like, my boyfriend is living off of diverted, diverted morphine right now, right? Like he's not, he hasn't done, like, fentanyl in, like, five days. So it's not, like, he just can't get his own script. So like, even if those meds are being diverted, they're like, really helping other people. They're not being sold to, like, children, who... So  you know, so there's, like, a lot of like, backlash. So like, instead of blaming, like, like, unchecked, like, housing costs, and like, the greed of the landlord class. It's like, the people helping or like, the people, like, scrambling to keep people alive. It's like, "oh, it's like, our faults," like, we cause, I cause, I cause homelessness. Or, like, you know, I've read comments where someone's, like, basically insinuating that, like, I somehow profit from people, keeping people homeless. I'm like, I literally cry with happiness when people I know are housed. And when people are kicked out of those houses I, like, cry with sorrow. 

Juls Budau  50:15 

Like, like, I am, like, impacted by the people that I work with. Like, whether that means, like, they're my clients or my co-workers or often people are both. And I want, like, safe, stable housing for everyone. But there isn't. But, like, even if there is and people are housed there is also, like, something to be said for, like, really low barrier, like, community spaces, like, people, where people, places where people can, like, be in public, like, inside, not criminalized. So.  

Giorgia Ricciardi  50:54 

To live that, that human experience and not feel like an outcast or dehumanized in that. 

Juls Budau  51:01 

Totally. Like, community spaces that, like, are for drug users even if they're housed because, you know, oftentimes people can't have guests or they have, like, limited guests or, like, can't have guests past a certain hour or there might not necessarily be very good, like, overdose prevention services, like, where they live. So I do feel like there is, like, [indiscernible]. But, anyways yeah, it can be, like, really difficult to, like be, be that like, base. But even like, so like, even like, with the cops. I was just like, just like, walk up to them. I was like, "do you have a warrant? What are you here for?" and then, like, talking about like, all the like, legislation and then I, like, went inside and everyone was like, "you really gave it to them, Juls." And I was like, "oh, yeah, I guess I did," like. Yeah. And then, like, I was talking about it today with the staff who was working, then I was like, like, "yeah, like sometimes you need to, like, leverage your like white privilege for good. And like, confront a cop in a way that might not be safe for someone else," right? 

Juls Budau  52:28 

And it's like, that's where I, and I do feel, like, I like, earned the respect of, like, some of the, like, nighttime people who thought I was, like, kind of a square before. Like, the nighttime, the nighttime patrons and, like, some of the, like, local dealers. I shouldn't say that, local site-users, people who live in the camp were like, "man, you really yelled at that cop" and I was like, "yeah," but, but now like, the cops, and like, hopefully there isn't, like, a backlash, but there could be. And this cop probably fucking hates me now. But you know, sort of like being that face and like, getting that backlash and, like, you know, like having a stalker, like getting the hate mail and like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then at the same time, it's like, you exist as a woman in society and you doing anything can [yield] that.

Giorgia Ricciardi  53:19

Yeah.


Juls Budau  53:20

Right?


Giorgia Ricciardi  53:19

Yeah. 

Juls Budau  53:23

They'll hate you if you're too free, they'll hate you if you're not free. Like, there's just always, like, something stupid that people will fucking say to you for anything.


Giorgia Ricciardi  53:34

100%. Yeah. You can't please everyone. Someone's always gonna have something to say.


Juls Budau  53: 39

Yeah.


Giorgia Ricciardi  53:40

Actually, on that, on that note, I'm curious, like, have you noticed an uptick in the stigma against your work or drug users in the face of COVID and everything that's happened with COVID? Or recently with, like, Freedom convoy folks, for example?

Juls Budau  54:04 

Um, you know, it was actually funny because there were... some, like, freedom convoy folks, because it was, like, that movement is big here, like, it started here, you know? And around the, or just before the time, there was also like, a movement in Prince George. And there was this Facebook group called, Together We Stand. And it was like, people realizing that, like, the conditions of unhoused people are not how they need to be. Even if they, you know, they're like better solutions or people can be treated better and that these things are created by like, shelter rules and like, policy, whatever. And it like became pretty popular. It was like, unhoused and housed people, like, working together, like a grassroots movement. You know, and that was, like, how we like fought them off. Because if that court case, and like all these things, and like, some of those people like, were very anti-Vax, and like, all about the freedom convoy, and I was like, "oh my god, am I not going to be friends with these people anymore?" And then, like, eventually it all just kind of, like, rolled through and we all just. I'm just like, "okay yeah, you did post in your Facebook that vaccine passports were like yellow stars. But um, ah, but now you, you deliver delicious meals to the trailer twice a week." So like, okay, like... 

Giorgia Ricciardi  55:40 

I mean, that's good, at least. 

Juls Budau  55:45 

Yeah, like... So...Um, I think, like, kind of like, on a bigger scale, like, in a more abstract way I think there is more stigma against drug users. But I think locally that's not the case. I think it's like a little bit the same, of like, many people in Prince George being very against drug use or, like, really feeling like what's happening downtown and in encampments is just, like, the result of bad choices and some criminals doing bad things, but then like, a lot of people here like really supporting what we do. I think, like, more people become more educated on it, like, every day, or at least I hope so. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  56:41 

Yeah, and I think, like, once you have a better sense of, you know, like, what organizations like yours do, you - maybe this is naïve of me - but I feel like you inevitably support it more because you realize, like, it's not as, it's not so black and white. Like what I'm trying to say is once people have a better awareness of what these organizations do, like, they inevitably support them more because, really, I think what most people want is for people to be safe and alive and taken care of and not dying in our streets, right? Those are all the questions I have for today, specifically, but I just want to open the floor if there are any final thoughts you want to share. Any, any questions you have, any other commentary you have. I know it was kind of a lot.

Juls Budau  57:35 

No, I felt like I did share a lot today. So maybe we can call it a night. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  57:41 

Thank you both.  

Juls Budau  57:42 

All right, okay.  

Giorgia Ricciardi  57:43 

Well, thank you so much for your time, and everything that you, that you shared with us.  

Juls Budau  57:47 

Okay 

Giorgia Ricciardi  57:47 

We really appreciate it.  

Caitlin Burritt  57:49
 
That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.