
Unsilencing Stories
Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller communities in B.C. and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal opioid overdose. The project was facilitated by Aaron Goodman, Ph.D., faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, B.C., and student researchers, Jenna Keeble and Ashley Pocrnich.
In this phase, we’re sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of B.C. The B.C. Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as “support services and strategies” that aim to keep people safe and minimize death, disease, and injury from high risk behaviour.”
Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers, including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in B.C. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face, including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing, and stressors at work.
We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face
The podcast is part of a research study led by Aaron Goodman and conducted under the auspices of the Chancellor’s Chair Award. Several researchers, including Caitlin Burritt, Chloe Burritt, and Giorgia Ricciardi, and a number of student research assistants played key roles in the study, and you’ll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Unsilencing Stories
Ryan Nielsen: Episode 7: Accessing Resources
In this episode, you'll hear Thomas Chunyungcoo and Melissa Spiridigliozzi interview Ryan Nielson for the last time. Ryan talks about the challenges of navigating bureaucracy when referring individuals to resources, particularly with health authorities, and finding individuals housing opportunities. He also discusses the way that stigma against people who use drugs and people who are unhoused creates barriers to accessing resources.
Glossary:
CAT: Community Action Team
CBT: Cognitive Behavioural Therapy
Chinatown (Vancouver, BC): A neighbourhood near Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside, known for having a large unhoused population, many of whom are affected by substance use disorder.
CPI Training: Crisis Prevention and de-escalation training, through the Crisis Prevention Institute.
DBT: Dialectical Behavior Therapy.
Hoot: a single inhalation of a drug.
OPS: Overdose Prevention Site
Options: Options Community Services, an non-profit organization which provides social services primarily in Surrey, Delta, White Rock and Langley.
Purdue Pharma: A private American pharmaceutical company which manufactured pain medicines, most famously OxyContin, which the company claimed had very limited potential for addiction or abuse. Purdue is considered a major contributor to America's opioid crisis because of the company’s misleading marketing of OxyContin.
Oxycontin: A highly addictive opioid pain relief drug created by Purdue Pharma.
RCMP: Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Sources Program: part of the Sources Community Resource Centres, a community-based, non-profit society that offers a variety of social wellness programmes in White Rock, Surrey and other communities in BC.
This episode was recorded on February 23, 2023.
Caitlin Burritt 00:00
Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016, according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers also known as peers in different parts of BC.
Caitlin Burritt 00:27
The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.
Caitlin Burritt 01:06
Please note this podcast contains information about substance use overdose death, grief, trauma, and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project a number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study, and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Caitlin Burritt 01:40
In this episode, you'll hear Thomas Chunyungcoo and Melissa Spiridigliozzi interview Ryan Nielson for the last time. Ryan talks about the challenges of navigating bureaucracy when referring individuals to resources, particularly with health authorities, and finding individuals housing opportunities. He also discusses the way that stigma against people who use drugs and people who are unhoused creates barriers to accessing resources.
Thomas Chunyungco 02:03
So my first question for you, Ryan, on inability to access and/or refer individuals to resources is: Do you experience challenges when it comes to referring individuals you work with to resources in the community?
Ryan Nielsen 02:19
Yeah, I definitely do. Even, like, just our shelters and stuff. So, you know, the weather even, like, right now, it's freezing cold out there. And there's certain people that aren't allowed at shelters, right, like, especially if they're a couple, so, or they have a pet or something. So that brings a lot of complications to it. And there's only one place actually in White Rock. So that also can be bad if people have negative experiences there or something bad happens or staff kicks them out, there, they don't have any really resources to go to, and then I find that really hard. Referring them too, to certain, I guess, specialists, they get denied a lot, sometimes, based on whether they have qualifications. I find it frustrating too, like, sometimes people will come from out of province, like, Alberta or something.
Ryan Nielsen 03:08
And I want to, like, refer them to get a Methadone clinic or something. So they can get some help with, you know, getting their life on track. And it's like super hard to do that. Sometimes it's like, just pulling tooth and nail, like, just a lot of time, it's either a bunch of money, or they just can't do it. And even IDs and stuff, they have their IDs stolen a lot. And like trying to get them set up with that. It's like, we were able to do it a lot of the time, sometimes, but like IDs and stuff, it's just really tough, I guess.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 03:38
Yeah, I can definitely imagine. And just briefly, when you talk about referring individuals to resources, just to specify, if you can, like what kind of, what kind of resources these are, and what some of the limits to these resources are, specifically when working with the service users of the organization you're at?
Ryan Nielsen 04:00
Okay, um. So I think one would be like family doctors or something, referring them specifically for that so they can get seen by someone constantly. And that's really hard to find one. And we find them again, it kind of comes to like, are they out of province? Okay, do they have identification and all these things? And so that's, I guess where I find really tough because I'm working with other organizations like that. See, like, ICBC for insurance, that's kind of hard as well, to get people their driver's license. And I think the big one, though, like, isn't the medical, right? Like, some people have, like, I guess they need like, special operations and stuff. And so then some specialists, psychiatrists and stuff, I find that hard sometimes, there's just like a long wait list, like, this isn't my organization, but Fraser Health, which is - I don't know if it's Fraser health over there, too?
Ryan Nielsen 04:46
But it's kind of like where the hospitals are, and all the medical system is by the government. And so trying to get them to get, like, a psychiatrist or something, there's, like, you know, eight month waitlist for them, or even longer sometimes, and then they need a phone number. But a lot of these times these people don't have phones, so it's like, okay, well, we have to coordinate with them. So we actually have to work with the Fraser Health to be like, “Okay, on their behalf, can you call us instead to let us know?" Right? And like, sometimes that's hard to do, because it's like, just a lot of rules in place, I guess there are procedures where that's sometimes not always viable, but at the same time, it's like, they definitely need psychiatrists. [They're] are going through, like schizophrenia, or, you know, a lot of, I can't think of the name right now. But like a lot of delusions and stuff, right? So they kind of need to be seen by someone. And if they can't get that, then it's just like, they're out in the streets with that.
Ryan Nielsen 05:36
So it's not good. Housing, too. I guess housing is a big one, right? How can we get them housing? So we recently are working with, I think it's like, Options. They're like a different organization. They have, like, one housing outreach worker, that's available, like one or two days a week. So it's like, that's really hard as well to coordinate with people. And then, so like, when they do get these resources too, right? So it 's like, okay, they have the housing outreach. "Are they on welfare? Are they on stuff?" And sometimes people aren't on that. And so that's kind of going down to the welfare office with them. Trying to get them set up with that. And I find that really, like, takes a long time. And that's so frustrating sometimes getting the welfare set for people, like yeah, because again, it goes back to like, all these procedures and barriers, like ID, all these things. And these people are, like, really, like I said, they're really sick a lot of the time and hurting and it's just, like, to get them to go all the way there to have all this stuff and hiccups, it's just like, leaves a really like negative imprint on them.
Ryan Nielsen 06:38
So recovery, so like if they want to get treatment and stuff, that's a, that's like really, really bad in the province right now. Like, people can't get seen for like eight months or sometimes they don't get services at all. Actually thinking of a friend of mine and they were trying to get seen at a place and they're working a whole bunch and they got a call. They weren't able to make it on time. And then they kind of just told them they weren't qualified for it and stuff. Like, it's insane. So it's just like, I don't know, it's just like people want to get better, right? So they can be in society and stuff and do all these things and how, how can they do that if all the help available is, like, either not available, or it's really hard to get seen in there? Like an eight month waiting list at a lot of the rehabs and stuff that are publicly funded, right? So the secret is to do privately funded and they probably are, like, I know, mine was like, 60 grand or something for two or three days. And my parents had to give up buying a house, like, that was their dream, was to buy a house, and they had to give it all up to put me in treatment for like, two, three months for me to relapse, which is like pretty brutal, actually, if you think about it.
Ryan Nielsen 07:46
And like, that's because, like, the public one was like, I think for me, it was like eight months or something like that. And it's like, okay, there's no way I'm waiting eight months, like, this is kind of like, thinking about killing myself every day with this drug addiction, like, I can barely, you know, do anything. And so it's really hard when I kind of see that when I work with people. And like, they don't have someone that can come up with that type of money and stuff, right? They're barely struggling to get food or water every day, right? And so, yeah, that's like...Right? Sometimes they have a point, right? It's like, hard to just, like, give them hope and be like, "yeah, no, like, things are gonna work out and stuff." Because it's like, "no, you're right. You're kind of screwed, you gotta wait eight months, and now it's gonna get harder in those eight months," right? Like, on top of those, all those other things, like I was saying, right? So it's just like, kind of like, basic human resources that we consider in our society, we can't even give it to people living here, which is pretty crazy if you think about it, I think at least.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 08:43
Yeah, definitely. And I know, I know, especially with, with housing, even here in, in, in Montreal, like, in the, some of the nonprofit spaces that I work at you see, you know, a lot of the homeless shelters, for instance, require people to be sober, which just kind of excludes an entire group of people. And so I know you touched on this briefly, when you spoke about how there's questions of whether or not someone has ID and all these other considerations when it comes to helping people to get services. Would you be able to expand on this? On this question of these challenges as isolated versus systemic?
Ryan Nielsen 09:28
Yeah, like, there's a lot of like, I find like, a lot of stigma in there. And like I, like I said, I still get that as of today, because I can go into my records, and they go, okay, like, first thing they asked me is, like, "are you an IV user? Have you used drugs before?" Like, because they know, right? They see my thing. And like, I get treated way differently, you can always tell. It's like, the whole, like, personality switches. And like, that's a lot of the places too, right? Like, they really look down on these people. And it's like, it's kind of weird, like, because I grew up in the States, right? Like, was born in Canada, but grew up in the States. And like, I've seen, like, definitely more racist compared to, like, BC and stuff, right? But like, it's really nothing, actually, when you compare to some of the stuff that these, like, addicts go through. It's like, they look at them, like they're, like, disgusting. And like, I hear that all the time for people, right? Like, you go to get these resources and like, the people literally look at them, like, they’re so trash and they say stuff like that, right?
Ryan Nielsen 10:19
Or, like, it's just like this. Um, like, a shun thing, right? It's just like, I don't know, like, it's really gross, actually. And like, yeah, I don't know, it's like, kind of crazy stuff. Like, I always see that in, in the stuff sometimes. Not always, right? But like, a lot of times, you always have to wonder that, right? Is it because they're not dressed properly? Is it because like, you know, they have sores on their arm or their, their hands or, right? And all that and, you know, like, it's crazy, like even the bathrooms, like you go to like, a Tim Hortons or something, right? And like, that's kind of a basic thing you would think, right? Like a resource. Like, can I use the bathroom? And it's like, everybody else can go in there. But as soon as, like, one of these people come in, and like, you literally just see someone coming out. They're like, "Oh, no, it's it's broken" or something. Even though they bought something there like, they're still a paying customer, they bought food or liquid, right? If you look into like, I guess, like, workers rights and stuff, you're, you have to be, you deserve, like, food or drinks. You have to be able to allow people to use a bathroom. And it's just kind of nuts to think about, and it has, like, lasting impacts on these people.
Ryan Nielsen 11:20
Like I said, like, I was talking to this other guy two days ago, and it's just like, like, he was saying, like, he's like, “I don't, I don't think I'm that person. But I get these really bad thoughts in my head to the, towards these people. Because of like, the way that they look at me, like, they don't understand that, like, I'm doing everything in my power just to, like, move on every day, I think about killing myself all the time with, if I can,” right? Because like, it's not. Like, because I've been there myself. It's literally the worst thing you could ever think of and like, I wouldn't really wish my, like, worst enemy to have, like, the addiction or anything. Because it's so bad and like, for them to say that, right? It's just like "yeah," it's like "you're not though, "right? They're human being [is the] other thing, right? And like, I guess it's like same with me, right?
Ryan Nielsen 12:00
Like, I used to look a lot different right? like four years ago, and now I'm here going to school, right? I pay taxes and I'm doing all these things productively for society. And like, all those other people are the same. They can do the same thing. They just need these resources in place, right? They need the resources to get treatment, they need resources to get basic things like housing, right? And, like, it's hard to go through the withdrawals and stuff. And there's no way you're doing that on the street, like...
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 12:29
I know Thomas was asking us in the chat, what some of the ways are of addressing some of these challenges? And what are some things that you have done in the past or would want to do in the future?
Ryan Nielsen 12:41
Um, I think, like, the big one, right now is just like talking about it more, right? I don't think people really want to have the discussion or be aware of it. And like, I know, especially like in the town I'm in it's like, they don't see it, that it's not there kind of thing, right? So, kick people out, remove them all. And we kind of do that in Vancouver, right, the east-side stuff, so it's like, we try to put a lot of people in a certain spot and then like, not talk about it and pretend about it. So we have to start discussing it. We have to kind of make it more mainstream, I think, get in the news, more proper education, I think, and more people are stepping forward and stuff, right? It'd be great to see, like, more people that, who have recovered and stuff and come and share their stories and stuff. And like I said, having, not debates but like, having open dialogues, I guess, where everyone can learn and expand their resources. Because if like, if people don't know there's a problem, how do we do anything about it in the first place, right?
Ryan Nielsen 13:41
So then once we identify that we have a problem and stuff, I guess the next few things would be just like, like the big ones I really want are like, like prevention, treatment and then like a safe supply. Like, I know that's really controversial and stuff, but um, we have to have more proper school education in the beginning and stuff to, like, first educate people on drugs and everything like this. Because like, I work with a lot of the schools here in Surrey, and like, they don't really talk about it anymore. Actually, they cut it all off. I know like, so, that's like a big one. Second one is like, recovery places need to have more funding and stuff, there has to be more beds and stuff. People don't, like they should, if they want to get help that day, they should get seen that day. Like, you know, because that's such a courageous thing and hard thing to do, is to like, say you're gonna quit something that you've been dependent on for so long for your emotions and everything. And like, you know, it's like, I've been through quite a lot of crap, like crazy stuff, like, especially when I was like, in that stuff, getting sober is one of the more harder things I had to do, like, compared to some pretty intense things and like, people gotta get seen right away.
Ryan Nielsen 14:49
So that's got to be doing, more funding, more resources. And then like I said, the big one's like a safe supply and like, at least have something where people know what they're taking, right? Because that's the thing, people don't know what they're getting on the street. And that's the thing. It's like alcohol, right? If one out of every 10 people were dying from drink and stuff, it would be like, "Oh, we have a major problem right now." Right? Like all the safety things would be on it right away. They'd be like, "crap, no one drink booze. We're gonna shut this down, like ,holy crap." Like that'd be mainstream, right? But like, the same thing is going on with street drugs, but it's like "oh, because they're street drugs," like, but alcohol is a drug too, right? So why is, like, one drug? It's actually pretty intense, alcohol, right? Like, completely takes you away and stuff, at lot of the other ones don't even do that, right?
Ryan Nielsen 15:35
So it's kind of one of those things, I guess. Um, and then I feel like that way people can at least kind of even, like, taper off and stuff, right? They can be like, "Okay, I'm gonna take a little less every time and that's really helpful," but like, when it's not regulated. Okay, so they're taking a little bit less, but what if their next, the next stuff they buy is like four times as potent? Or what if it's two times less as potent? Right? So then they're taking? Yeah, that, and then I don't know. Like I said, like in an ideal world and stuff, I guess it'd be - like, it's kind of sad, like, I worked in a lot of like, grocery stores and stuff, right? Like the amount of food that gets thrown away is pretty crazy, right? But it's kind of crazy. You think about it, like, we have all this food we throw away, like, we don't use but then... Stuff like that. So if there's a way somehow we could, like, in an ideal world, have some some more support systems for people to get food and stuff, I guess, would be cool, as well.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 16:28
Definitely. And in the meantime, as you're working within your, your organization, can you describe a time when you've had to refer someone to to a resource of any kind and you found yourself faced with these barriers? How did you navigate those circumstances?
Ryan Nielsen 16:45
I know this guy at work, trying to get him housing. Because it's like, he was just kind of done, he was like, actually pretty suicidal with it all and stuff. So trying to work on that and had to reach, like, this different organization and stuff, right? And then they're like, “Okay, well, there's no places available right now” or they had found a place, it's available for like, it was, say, $1000 something like, had to go through the hoops really, really tough to do it, we finally got in there. And then it was like a stigma thing, I guess, like the person that we were getting the house from, just like did not know that there was gonna be homeless person coming. So that like, literally just like, and it was really weird because they didn't say anything, like everything was all good, fine, till the person actually showed up, saw who it was and stuff. And like, he knew the person was gonna be homeless, but just based on like, maybe how dirty he was looking and stuff at that time, then we got that denied. And like, that really made him pretty upset and like, hurt because like, it's again, these people are humans, right?
Ryan Nielsen 17:46
They're very aware, right? And so it's like, he saw what's going on. And so he didn't want to get a house, actually, after that, went back on the street for like another month or two. I had to really try to convince him again, that we could do it a third time. Because we were trying to get, like, work a little bit more with the organization, take some more time out, do meetings with them. And really sit down and try to like, discuss some plans and stuff. And so we're doing a little bit more thorough searches, I guess. So we're just having to be really open with the people, meeting before we actually brought the person with us. So it's like, really trying to almost screen them, which is so weird, right? Like, because we're trying to get housing, which we're really desperate for anything, but we also have to make sure that the person now is going to be okay, so we can avoid those kinds of experiences in the future. And then we were able to do that and get him a place and yeah, even the guy was a little freaked out, I think the first night or two he, like, stayed there for like a couple nights and didn't actually sleep there just because of the whole experience in itself. But he's doing good now. And he's, he's still in there, which was really happy to hear
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 18:47
At least, even --
Ryan Nielsen 18:48
Yeah.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 18:49
Right? All of that which is traumatic in and of itself in many ways. And what was going through, what was going through your mind throughout this process?
Ryan Nielsen 18:58
I guess like, um, dunno because like, I'm really, it's hard explain, like, I just really cared for it, so like, a little stressed too, I guess. I was really stressed out about it a lot. I was really worried. And I felt really kind of gross and disgusted, I guess, when that thing happened, because I was like, "wow." And it was like, it was just so awkward too I was like "crap," like, "okay," like, I gotta like, didn't want to be in the situation to be honest, like, but I had to, so I was, like, looking at him seeing what's going on, then like looking at the homeless person being like, "Oh, crap," right? Like, okay, and then just like, trying to handle it the best I could and then at the end feeling really sad, I guess. And then I guess, not depressed but like, lost hope a little bit. I was like, "man, like, this sucks." Like, I don't know how hard this would be. And then like feeling a little guilty too, I guess like... Like, I really take things personally too like, like, "Okay, well there's gotta be a better way I could have thought about this right?" And like I was able to later on, right? Be like, "Okay, I'm gonna start screening people going forward." But I had to kind of like, really do some reflection myself and think about what I could have done there and do that, I guess, right?
Ryan Nielsen 19:58
And then like, the other one I find really frustrating, I guess is just like in the O clinics, like, there's this guy right now. And like, I’ll just call him T, and then so he wanted to get on Methadone and stuff really bad, and I thought it'd be kind of easy, and it just really wasn't easy. And, like, again, they needed, because he was from Alberta and stuff, he had to pay out of pocket and stuff. And I was like, “Well, this is gonna be crap, because he's just gonna do, like, street drugs for the amount of money they're gonna charge him for Methadone.” So I still haven't fixed that one, I don't know what to do. But trying to like find ways and kind of, like, just ask people inside the building, other people I work with.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 20:36
For sure. And a lot of it, I guess you wouldn't, you wouldn't think to also screen the person you're supposed to get housing from because typically in your mind you normally think of it as like landlords screening potential tenants. So yeah, it's, it's not an obvious thing to to think about in the moment. And how do you cope with the stress of these situations of, you know, having to problem solve on your feet in these ways?
Ryan Nielsen 21:04
Yeah, like, I guess, like it's just really, I've been through for so long and stuff, right? And I had like a pretty crazy upbringing myself and stuff. And so like, it's not, like, these kinds of things aren't really new to me. Like, since like, a little kid, I've been exposed to death and all that kind of stuff. So it's just like, part of that it's just I have a really high threshold. And then the second one is just really taking care of yourself, making sure you carve out free time for yourself, right? Doing things healthy. I was actually just thinking about this before I got here, but like, it's really important to, like, take care of your body. And like, that's how you feel good, right? So like, if you like eat junk food all day, we all eat out every day, you know, pizza, McDonald's and stuff. You're gonna have more anxiety, you're gonna be more depressed, like, you're just going to notice it right? You might not know why, like, "Oh, why am I more anxious today?" and stuff. It's because like what you're putting in your body, right? Put in like nutritious, healthy food, get all this stuff in there vitamins and stuff
Ryan Nielsen 21:58
You'll have more you know, moods and stuff. And so I try to do that. I really try to put, like, what I put in my body, um, important, like working out trying to do cardio five days a week, working out three days a week, or four days a week. So, always trying to do that, go for walks, like appreciate nature, like, I find, like, [if] I'm really stressed out, just going to nature and like just really not, turning my phone off, right? Like taking a break from the world and that's, going to walk on the beach and doing that, like, I just really relax and try not to, like, take things so seriously all the time as well.
Ryan Nielsen 22:36
Like, life's too serious to be serious all the time, right? And the big one, I'm working on is boundaries, right? So just trying to, like, "okay, I can work this" or "I can't do that." And I do struggle with that. I find like, I've been like, the people pleaser in the past and like, so I always want to do more than I can and I'm working on that. Because like I said, last couple weeks, I noticed I was getting a little bit more stressed out with things. So that's when I had to, like, pull back a little bit and practice boundaries, and kind of get to where I'm at now, right? Good day today and stuff, and good week.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 23:15
That's good, that you were able to recognize these things and that you're feeling better and that you had a good day today. And just in relation to whether it be these topics of, you know, access to resources, or even any of the other topics we were discussing in the last few interviews with Thomas and Samantha, whether this be about exposure to grief, housing challenges, recognition in the workplace financial security, if there was any thoughts that you wanted to share, just thinking about these topics as a whole. And as they relate to one another?
Ryan Nielsen 23:55
Yeah, I guess like the, they're all connected, right? So yeah, I guess like, those are all the big plays, I think, that go on in this project we're talking about was the people whole, is that there has to be, the people behind the scenes have to be paid well, they have to make good wages, they have to be, their mental health has to be a priority as well. They have to be able to handle the stresses, we also have to talk about stigma as a whole like, "Okay, how are we actually going to solve this problem?" And that's going to be by changing people's minds and stuff. And like exposing them to the thing, and having different sides of people's stories. Financial security, people really struggling with money in the form of resources, right? Like, they don't have all the resources. It's, yeah, it's I guess, like I'll just say the, all those places need to be in place. Like they all do connect, they're all essential for this. It's like a, I guess that's what I would really like stress is like, it's a really big problem.
Ryan Nielsen 24:49
It's a really complex problem. And like, if we actually think about the amount of people dying every day, right? It's like, pretty crazy amount, I think it's like eight a day right now, or seven and a half a day. And like, that's just our province. And that's like, everyday, right? And like, that's more than, that's the number one, like, leading cause of death or something for males and, over something, and I don't know, It's just a lot of people I guess, right? It's just like, and these are real people. I guess. That's what I want to say is like, people like me or people, like, if you look up, all the recovered people, right? Like, those are people too, that would have normally been dead if they didn't get the right resources at the right time. And we're all humans, and like, it's really a tough project or a tough project to deal with. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, just getting more things like these involved, I guess, right?
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 25:32
For sure. And, you know, as a follow up to my question, I know Thomas, specifically, specifically was wondering how you think of the inability to access or refer people to resources in relation to some of the traumas that you've seen just in your work?
Ryan Nielsen 25:51
I guess they kind of go hand in hand a little bit, they make them worse. Because yeah, like, these guys have a lot of trauma, like this guy, like on Tuesday, like, I was really happy that he was able to share a lot, but like, he was like having a breakdown, same thing, where he's just like, wanting to kind of kill himself every day, and not to, because he just like, is so done being homeless and stuff. And he's been through so much traumatic things and, like hearing about the story, right?
Ryan Nielsen 26:14
It's like, okay, like, they were trying to have a kid, him and his girlfriend. Like four years ago, kid passed away, like, had something go wrong. Like, I'm not sure what happened. Then all of a sudden, the wife and, they both like, ended up relapsing hardcore, and they were in recovery. And then she died like, four months ago. And so this guy's got, like, you know, and he feels like, every time he tries to quit, he can't do it. And so he's got, like, death. And like, I think it was like, he found his girlfriend there too the next morning and stuff, right? So it's like, pretty fresh in his thing, his kid's gone and all this stuff, and then trying to refer him to these services and stuff. And then he gets like, like I said, the stigma or whatever, people look down on him. And that's what he was saying he was like, it's just like a breaking point. Like, he just wishes that they could, one of their kids or whatever, could go through the same thing. He's like, "I know that's a bad thing. Like I shouldn't feel like that. But like, I want them to, like, understand," because like just the way they look at him, and when he's going through all that, right? Like, he is a human and all that.
Ryan Nielsen 27:11
So like it ties in, as it makes the trauma worse, right? And like, based on what I know from trauma, like from work and all that stuff, it's just like, that brain, part of the brain is always, like, on, when you've going through something traumatic, or when you continue to go through traumatic things. And especially like, the people I work with, they're constantly going through more traumatic things all the time, right? And, like, it's not nice out there, that's for sure. And when they get looked down on [in] the services and stuff, like, they honestly do believe that what they're doing is only what, the only way they can do it, right? And the only way they can survive, and so that's it, right? That's why they don't want to survive a lot of time. You know, it's just like, but also like, you know, taking your own life is a pretty intense thing, right?
Ryan Nielsen 27:55
So it's like, they're kind of stuck in that loop,thing. So it's really important to tell them how they are important. Give them the resources, like my place at my work, where they can feel welcomed, safe, and treated like a human being, right? And they can open up and see there's people like me that can do, who have done it before, who's been in their spot. And like, really try to push for them for these barriers. And like, I'm not gonna, definitely not going to quit anytime soon, I'm gonna keep on trying to push them down and help get the services going. And like, it does work. It's just really slow. Unfortunately, with governments and all the stuff working with them, things are really slow to get off, but they are in the process. And it's just about not giving up, keep on doing it.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 28:42
Ryan, I know you were referring to, kind of like, the compoundedness of, of trauma. And from your perspective, does witnessing that kind of add to your own?
Ryan Nielsen 28:54
Yeah, like, I don't find it. Like um, I guess because like, I've been through some pretty insane stuff, like, honestly, like, it's kind of hard to explain it. But so these things are actually pretty mild to me, to be honest, like I said, that they still like, sometimes it brings up stuff, right? Like I'm a human being, right? So I've just been exposed to a lot of it so it just takes me a lot more to get to it, but sometimes when it does trigger it a little bit. But I don't know, to be honest. I'm just being honest, it doesn't too much to be honest. I'm not sure that's good. It is what it is.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 29:29
Yeah, it is what it is. And you know what, either way, it's like it's equally valid. And I know before we started talking you had mentioned, which is also related to this topic of of access/ in-access to resources. You had also mentioned being interested in discussing the topic of of recovery and access too, in, in that regard? Would you be willing to expand on that? And what that means for you?
Ryan Nielsen 29:56
Yeah, I'd love to. Um, yeah, so I guess what I'm trying to say this is like, when I'm saying like, it's really hard to get in these services or resources like, like treatment, for example, right? But I guess what I wanted to say was like, the journey for a lot of people and addiction and stuff is not this magical pill or magical fix, right? Like, some people don't ever get to, like, my point, even for me, I have to be really mindful and stuff. And always be careful with my own recovery, right? Because like, it's very easy for people to slip, and like, I've heard people 10, 20 years, right? And something happens, and they're back to using and stuff. So I guess that's what I was trying to talk about was, like, this is a lot of ongoing processes, like, so everyone will, might need to go back, like, relapse is really common in recovery. Like, it's almost like, it's actually expected to happen in recovery, right?
Ryan Nielsen 30:43
Like it's gonna happen. And like, for me, like when it happened to me, my parents spent, like, all that money to do it. And then I had one. And then same thing, where I had to go back to a free one, right? Because at that point, my parents are broke and like, had to kind of figure out myself, and then I was able, luckily, like, I was so lucky, because I knew one of the people in the public thing. And they like, did it. They were not supposed to do it. But they like, cut me through everyone in line and got me, like, there the next day. And that was the last time, that's where my stuff started, I guess and um, I guess that's part of my recovery is I was lucky enough to have someone bend the rules and allow me to get into the service right away. And like, again, that's where I'm at now. Like, I probably would have gone back downwards, right? If I wasn't able to get recovery right away and continue my relapse, right? And so having these referrals, or inability to refer ourselves to these services and stuff, is already hard just to get in once and stuff. Imagine having to go in like twice or three times for these people, right?
Ryan Nielsen 31:47
So I guess it's really essential for it to be easy to access. So people can do that. And they can have ongoing support and recovery in their thing because it takes like two years just for the brain to even get, like, kind of back to normal. It's called pause post acute withdrawal symptom. So like that's it's a long, long process for people, right? And stuff, especially depending on how much you use and how long you used it. And so people need that support and service. And like, I think that first year too, that first year is really hard, right? So it's, yeah, like, that's the thing, like people should have a place to stay. Especially as they're getting better. I feel like that's a no brainer thing, right? Like they're not, we're not asking them to use and stuff. We're just saying, like, these people are willing to get better.
Ryan Nielsen 32:30
They're trying to want to go back to society and stuff. And they contribute too, right? Like, they always get do things there and help out and do work, right? A little bit. So having those kinds of services available, I think would be really, like, it'd be such a breaking point, actually, I believe, in like, the overdose crisis and stuff. Because you would have people being able to get the help and stuff, like, I know lots of people who want help, like I talked to a lot of the people in the streets and stuff. They do, too. It's just like, they don't have, like I said, the the ability to access the resources and stuff.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 33:04
Yeah, definitely. And, as we were saying, throughout our discussions, many of these issues are, are interconnected. Just the inability to access these resources is further exacerbated by lack of access to housing and difficulties with financial security. On the policy level, what kind of changes would you imagine would be necessary in order to make this possible?
Ryan Nielsen 33:29
So I guess, like, it'd be safe supply is a big one, right? So I don't know what that looks like. I don't think it should be legal, like, where you can buy at a liquor store. I don't think that should be a thing. But I think where, that if they have the drugs in their system, they know they're using and stuff, they should be able to, like, go to some pharmacist or whatever and get their, buy it that way. So that'd be a pretty big policy change. I'm not sure what that would look like. Not sure if that's like, somewhere between legalization and decriminalization and stuff. policy change would be for, like, recovery centers, I guess. Right? So that would be, I mean, they're doing it like in some provinces and stuff, right? So it's just about really expanding the funding for that kind of stuff, right? Instead of maybe putting a bunch of, actually, that's what it is, right? They sent a lot of money to it. But sometimes, like, where does that money go into?
Ryan Nielsen 34:18
What is it doing? And I find a lot of times is to Band-aids, rather than actually fixing the root cause, right? Like, okay, here's a bunch of money for, like, harm reduction supplies, and this and that, which is good. But it's like, you know, and food and all that. But like, what if you took all this money for these buildings and all that and did it for like, National Housing Complex for these people, or more beds and recovery, right? And stuff like that. So I really think they should do that, make it like a government thing, where they're in charge, just like they are for medical, right? They're in charge of all public. It's kind of weird, actually, if you think about it, it's like, kind of by law in Canada, it's like we have the public or, it's not private healthcare, right? Publicly funded. I grew up in the states where it's more private, and then we got rehabs and stuff, but then that can be private or public, right?
Ryan Nielsen 35:05
It's like, kind of weird, you'd think that it'd all be public in the same kind of thing. So I guess that would be a big switch is include recovery places to be part of the public healthcare system. And then I [believe], like, really should change the funding, I guess, for our hospitals and stuff, I would say like, get the money coming in that was promised, work on that, work on our economy, I guess that'd be like a really long thing, though. But just kind of work on those things, get it to the point where we can, housing is a little bit more affordable, and, you know, and recovery is affordable have, okay, sorry, might go on a ramble here, but like, have maybe like, like a recovery place. So people are actually, like, trying to get sober and stuff, they can live there as well. So like, post recovery, like, they can stay there as long as they need until they're ready to go back. And same with making that maybe more universal for, like, the health care. So when people are coming from Alberta or province, they can get their Methadone or their, their medicines or medications without having to pay a bunch of money. I think that's got to be essential for people and then public, public housing too.
Ryan Nielsen 36:23
Yeah, it's hard. Like I said, like, I have to, like, sometimes go home, right? Like, if I stay already late. And then someone's coming in the very end and they're like, "Okay," like, "Can I take a shower now or laundry or," right? Like, because I do showers and laundries at the food bank on a certain day. But it's only open for, you know, to like four o'clock. So if it's like 4:30 and someone's coming in, they want to do that or they need to talk or they want, like I said, to use the laundry there, to get support services. You have to deny them, sometimes you have to be like "No, I can't, actually. Sorry, I'm already 45 minutes late, later than I should be. I have other plans going on, actually, you know, a bunch of school stuff due." Right? Try and do it like that, but you know, do it nicely and yeah.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 37:12
Yeah, that that must definitely be hard. And in any case --
Ryan Nielsen 37:17
It is, yeah.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 37:18
I know, you already touched on this a little bit. But how do you approach those circumstances?
Ryan Nielsen 37:22
Yeah, I'll just kind of, like try to be like, very nicely as I can and to be empathetic with them. Be like, "Hey, like, I understand, like, it must be really hard" and stuff, but like, also kind of explain my situation, right? What's going on, why I can't, and it's not like a, like, "I definitely want to stay and help you out. Like, it's in my intention. I just can't because of this and this and that," right? Sometimes I get really like, there's definitely couple of them. When I get upset, I'll be like, well, like, this one's really affecting me, like, with someone like, maybe, almost overdosing or getting really high. I'm like, "crap," like, I feel like I shouldn't leave because something bad might be happening to them. But also, like I said, I have other things going on, and then um, maybe take some time, sometimes, like half an hour, an hour, but then I have to be like, "nope, gotta let it go." Right? Like, I can't save everybody. It's not my responsibility to save everybody. I can do my best, right. But that's all I can do.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 38:18
For sure. And I know, we're nearing the last 10 minutes of our discussion. And I was wondering if you wanted to take this space to, either, you know, reflect on some of the topics we discussed today, or some of the topics you discussed in previous discussions with Thomas and Samantha, or even just to think about, or talk about your experience in general, as part of this project?
Ryan Nielsen 38:46
Yeah, I think this project has been really interesting, like, like, for myself, even like realizing about maybe some barriers, still. So like, I think that I was kind of forgetting that I still had some stigma myself, even with like medical systems and stuff. Which is kind of surprising. It was actually kind of sad. I was like, "Yeah, crap, I still have to, I still go through that." That's probably why I avoid going to doctors so much, or, you know, the hospital when I have to go to and just like, just like, how big of the issue is, really. As I guess, maybe I think I was starting to get maybe, not black and white, but I was like, "Okay, maybe this, these things will work. And then it's gonna have a huge impact, and then build up my organization that's gonna, like completely stop all the stuff in White Rock and people are gonna stop dying, and this and that," and then it's like, no, it's a really complex thing. And it's like, more than just like, what I can do, or my organization can do. It's like, what society has to do as a whole, what government has to do, you know. I guess just, like, how much things are at play right now? Like, how difficult it is, I guess. And like, how long of a process it is, I think, just to get it on. But um, I don't know, I had a lot of hope too, like this. This project, I thought was really cool. And just like the questions you guys have been asking and stuff has been really insightful and really professional and really happy that you guys are doing this kind of approach and trying to actually work on helping or at least educating people in the proper way and doing like, proper research. So I find that really cool. yeah.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 40:15
Thank you. And we and we always found your, your insights and your, and your very empathetic approach to be especially great to listen to, even in the short time that I've been here. Was there something that you wanted to add Thomas?
Thomas Chunyungco 40:31
Yeah, I mean, Ryan, it's, it's great working with you. Even on our little like art, like assignment, like we've worked on and we communicate in the past. That's been like, really well, like one of the best I've seen so far…
Ryan Nielsen 40:47
Oh really?
Thomas Chunyungco 40:47
Yeah, your drawings. They're really good. That I've seen.
Ryan Nielsen 40:53
Oh really?
Caitlin Burritt 40:54
That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast, to listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com. And if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com Thank you for listening.