
Unsilencing Stories
Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller communities in B.C. and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal opioid overdose. The project was facilitated by Aaron Goodman, Ph.D., faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, B.C., and student researchers, Jenna Keeble and Ashley Pocrnich.
In this phase, we’re sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of B.C. The B.C. Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as “support services and strategies” that aim to keep people safe and minimize death, disease, and injury from high risk behaviour.”
Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers, including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in B.C. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face, including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing, and stressors at work.
We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face
The podcast is part of a research study led by Aaron Goodman and conducted under the auspices of the Chancellor’s Chair Award. Several researchers, including Caitlin Burritt, Chloe Burritt, and Giorgia Ricciardi, and a number of student research assistants played key roles in the study, and you’ll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Unsilencing Stories
Ryan Nielsen: Episode 6: Financial Insecurity
In this episode, you'll hear Ryan Nielson talk to Thomas Chunyungco, Samantha Tsang and Melissa Spiridigliozzi about financial insecurity. He discusses the difficult balance between compensation, working beyond his regular hours, and exposure to trauma at work. Ryan describes the differences a recent promotion has made to his quality of life and how he previously had to support himself on minimum wage earnings and the correlation between financial insecurity and burnout.
Glossary:
CAT: Community Action Team
CBT: Cognitive Behavioural Therapy
Chinatown (Vancouver, BC): A neighbourhood near Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside, known for having a large unhoused population, many of whom are affected by substance use disorder.
CPI Training: Crisis Prevention and de-escalation training, through the Crisis Prevention Institute.
DBT: Dialectical Behavior Therapy.
Hoot: a single inhalation of a drug.
OPS: Overdose Prevention Site
Options: Options Community Services, an non-profit organization which provides social services primarily in Surrey, Delta, White Rock and Langley.
Purdue Pharma: A private American pharmaceutical company which manufactured pain medicines, most famously OxyContin, which the company claimed had very limited potential for addiction or abuse. Purdue is considered a major contributor to America's opioid crisis because of the company’s misleading marketing of OxyContin.
Oxycontin: A highly addictive opioid pain relief drug created by Purdue Pharma.
RCMP: Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Sources Program: part of the Sources Community Resource Centres, a community-based, non-profit society that offers a variety of social wellness programmes in White Rock, Surrey and other communities in BC.
This episode was recorded on February 21, 2023.
Caitlin Burritt 00:00
Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016, according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers also known as peers in different parts of BC.
Caitlin Burritt 00:27
The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.
Caitlin Burritt 01:06
Please note this podcast contains information about substance use overdose death, grief, trauma, and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project a number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study, and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Caitlin Burritt 01:40
In this episode, you'll hear Ryan Nielson talk to Thomas Chunyungco, Samantha Tsang and Melissa Spiridigliozzi about financial insecurity. He discusses the difficult balance between compensation, working beyond his regular hours, and exposure to trauma at work. Ryan describes the differences a recent promotion has made to his quality of life and how he previously had to support himself on minimum wage earnings and the correlation between financial insecurity and burnout.
Thomas Chunyungco 02:04
All right, so my first question for you, Ryan, on financial insecurity would be, do you receive enough financial compensation for your work?
Ryan Nielsen 02:13
I think so. I don't know. It's like hit and miss. I think sometimes I do when it's like, I guess, slower days and stuff. But then there's a lot of times where I guess sometimes I feel like I could make a little bit more and stuff, I guess just because it's like such a, it's like a job that doesn't really, [...] I guess it's not, it's like hard to just stop it and stuff. Like I find if I'm, if people are helping me or not helping me, if I'm helping people, and the time has gone up or something.
Ryan Nielsen 03:03
There's just like, a lot of pressure on me to kind of work above and beyond, like, my hours or just kind of like, the, I dunno, I'm trying to, the amount of like, tolerance, I guess you have for it and stuff. And I think like, a lot of the people I work with are definitely underpaid for, like, my particular field and stuff compared to wages, maybe like in Surrey or Vancouver. Um, and so in those aspects, I think those are a little bit more fair wages for what kind of work I deal with and stuff because, like, I mean, I was thinking about it, even like, the other day where it was on Sunday, I was doing a shift and like, there has to be like, that level-headedness and calmness and like, assertiveness at the same time where I'm trying to tell people what to do, like, "Okay, can you help me clean up the bathroom here?", "help me clean up the showers here." "Can you do this?" And then there's a client, like, outside, and he's starting to like, overdose, on the verge of overdosing now, so it's like, we're, we close up in about 10 minutes. And you know, like, people are still showering and stuff. And it's not like, at least I find a lot of times, the people I work with, it's like we have to go at four and they are in a different time zone or different clocks than, than I have or other people have. And so they're just starting to, like, get ready at that time.
Ryan Nielsen 04:01
They're like, "Yeah, I'll be five minutes." But five minutes to them can be half an hour. And then there's still someone outside overdosing, and then you notice puke everywhere. And then it's like, "okay," like it can be really traumatic, almost in a way, right? It's like, "okay, I can't go home." There's someone literally dying here, puking. And they're unresponsive. Like, "do you need naloxone? Do you need this?" And it's like, they're barely responding. They're saying "no," kind of, but I also know that they're impaired and they have, you know, vomit coming out, all these things. Okay, so I'll do that. And then there's just like one person, right?
Ryan Nielsen 04:33
And there's like eight other people there. And then they all are kind of oblivious to this and they'll be yelling my name, and like, okay, so I'll stay later after 45 minutes, but it's just so much like stress and trauma. It's like, okay, go home, and be like, "oh, yeah, like someone pretty much died, almost, in front of me." Yeah, I had to, like, bring them back to life, I had to call the paramedics, I had to wait till paramedics got here, I talked to first responders, I had to make sure that this person was doing their job here and making sure this person didn't, you know, have triggered and make sure this person didn't fight this person, because this person thought this person stole 'em, or I don't know. It's sometimes, where it's almost like, I'd be down to do that if the money was higher, or I could, like, you know like, save up.
Ryan Nielsen 05:11
But if it's, you know, $10 more than minimum wage or something like that. It's almost like, I don't know.
Samantha Tsang 05:17
How do you balance or I guess, juggle, the wage and your own mental health and your ethics and morals in all this because it feels like that impossible triangle where you have to pick two and either option is just --
Ryan Nielsen 05:34
yeah, I mean --
Samantha Tsang 05:34
not ideal?
Ryan Nielsen 05:36
Yeah, no, exactly. And, you know, I still struggle with that, like, finding the time or, you know, this week ... it's a lil' more harder for me and stuff, because it is hard, where, you know, my morals and values are, you know, they're pretty strong beliefs and stuff. And if I, I guess it's like going with the flow. That's like, my big secret, I guess, is like really going with the flow and like, how you do that, it's just really being in the present moment and not, I don't know, it's, it's a hard skill, I guess, because it's like, I do want time to relax and to get my mental health, but a lot of times, I gotta kind of, like, learn how to do a bit better right now
Ryan Nielsen 06:13
because I find I'll get to the that point where you're like, at your breaking point or like, a burnout, and then it's like, "okay, I need a break now" or I have to be a little more assertive or I don't know, I guess maybe more blunt than I would be normally with people. Especially, like, at my work I know it's like, they're very sensitive and stuff, like, I'm even very sensitive too with my own experience and stuff and you know, I was able to learn ways to balance that out and stuff but with them it's like just little things can really trigger them, like a lot, to the point where they won't come back or they won't talk to us or open up or feel vulnerable again. So yeah, taking care of myself to get that done. So I'll put my thing last and theirs first, to make them feel good and, and so they'll come back.
Ryan Nielsen 06:59
Yeah, it's just really about picking, I guess, certain times. It's almost like a rotation, I guess, so one week I'll, not one week but one day, maybe I'll have me-time and self care. Another time, it'll be just about them. It's just really about, yeah, going with the flow. Yeah. And then with morals and values, it's really sometimes, when there's opportunities, I guess, for me to line that up, I would, but there's times where I kind of have to try not to deviate too far from my values and morals if I'm doing something. Yeah.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 07:27
Yeah. And you were talking a little bit about the nature of the work and this balancing act that seems to be at play in terms of ensuring the sustainability of the work that you're doing, and what do you feel would allow you and your, and your colleagues to be more supported, whether financial or otherwise, in order to for this to be sustainable?
Ryan Nielsen 07:55
It's a good question. I think it's like, so I might just talk out loud a little bit, but like, this particular field is, like, really high turnover and burnout rate with it. ['Cause] people don't know how to self care or, not, or maybe they do. It's just like, it's so hard not to let it become personal when you work with these people daily and get to know them. And then, for you to be like, "oh, yeah, this person I see every day," you know. Sometimes we go to work more than we do our own houses or own family, right? Like, we spend so much time there. And you get to really know these people and you're constantly working with them and seeing them grow and then for things to happen like that. It's like, "Alright, time to not let it affect me," like it's going to affect you. So then I think people will get to the point where they just kind of quit or like, can't do this anymore.
Ryan Nielsen 08:33
So what do people need? It's like a little bit of the same support that they're giving to other people in a way, right? It's like, they have to feel like they're valued, they have to feel like they can take time out. And, but I'm not sure if there's enough staff for that. That's the thing is, like, I have to see, like, sometimes I get frustrated with my work where we do have a lot of staff, they're not initially people with experience, but they're volunteers and stuff, they'll start to help us out more, but like that's kind of a new thing. And like, we [hadn't] been doing that before when we could have used people. That helps me a lot, like, I know there's a couple people there that will step up or take some, you know, initiative and talk with the people or do that and that's, I find really helpful.
Ryan Nielsen 09:12
I think that's the hardest skill for people, like, you can have lots of people help out and do maybe more the physical tasks, but like, to have that, the piece where you're able to talk to people and actually, like, help them out and relating, almost like, a little bit of a counseling experience, and that I think that's really hard to find. Because like, okay, to find someone like that, you probably need someone that's been through the addiction themselves and, you know, is able to recover and so, like, they're at a good place to do that. And those aren't very, like, many people. I think we have a lot more people that stay addicted or die and to find those people and then a lot of the time, they don't want to go back to the work they [were] doing and that was something even I had to think about for a while, was like, I really wanted to just, like, separate myself as far as I could from this. Like, when I was, got sober there four years ago, and like, just forget about it, don't talk about it, and don't look back,
Ryan Nielsen 10:06
and I think a lot of people are like that and um, just that [anonymous] thing where people just, like, want to move on and stuff. And I think we talked about it in this project, earlier session of mine but like, when I do finish this... finish my schooling and stuff and actually do try to get a job in, like, the marketing world and stuff like. Will any of my history or any of the stuff I've been doing currently right now, like, I get on the newspaper, all those things, will that end up backfiring with me and stuff? Or do I kind of need to stay in this field? And so that's always something that's kinda in the back of my head too, I guess for that.
Thomas Chunyungco 10:41
Yeah. Does the amount of money you earn allow you to feel dignified and respected by your employer and people you work with?
Ryan Nielsen 10:48
I think so. Yeah, like yeah, sometimes like I said, I don't think it's tons to where relieve stress or I feel like I'm getting completely paid what I am, but like, with the new promotion I got recently, like a couple months ago and stuff, I do feel like it's helped a lot and I still feel really proud of myself and I'm really, like, accomplished for the pay raise, like. I like, I'm, my experience or all my addiction and stuff has, like the super benefit at the end of the day with the money, it's like, "okay, cool." I'm actually making not minimum wage anymore. I'm like, could actually maybe live on my own if schooling didn't fail out, and like the correct living wage to live in Vancouver, and all those things, and that makes me feel, like, really respected in that aspect.
Samantha Tsang 11:34
Maybe if we were to, say, backtrack a little bit into your past, were there ever times where this career path, or I guess this job, whichever, you feel it's more appropriate, do you ever feel that you struggled with the pay in terms of living expenses and wage? And can you just kind of speak about that a little bit?
Ryan Nielsen 11:55
Yeah, I think I've really struggled, actually. Like before, even with this job and stuff when I first started off, it was like, it was like $15 an hour or so. It was like, pretty much minimum wage and not very many hours. I think I was getting like two or six hours, or four or six hours a week. So you know, you can make way more at a minimum wage just coffee job because you at least kind of get guaranteed hours and that stuff. And that was really hard, to kind of work with and stuff. Because I found out at a particular point in my life, when I was starting to do this type of work, I wasn't fully, I guess, ready to go back to work or back into like, the business world and all those kinds of things. I just wasn't ready. And I, the reason why I also say I'm not ready is because I tried that before, when I was getting clean and sober, multiple times, where I would feel like, not really ready
Ryan Nielsen 12:42
but I'm financially screwed over to the point where I'm stressing out over, like, payments, bills, Visa, you know, rent, food. So... Like, for to work and try to get that done. And having those no hours, it was, like, better than nothing but at the same time. You know, it's like what I can take. Sorry, I kind of got sidetracked there. But yeah, I would relapse if I went back to the business world and stuff when I wasn't quite ready yet. And so I would go way back to where I was. And that would really get me depressed and really, like, stuck, because I feel like, like, every time I tried to do this, I, it took a lot of work to get to that point where I got to, where I was like, "okay, like, you know I'm somewhat functional." But you know, this took me, like, everything I had to get to this point, and still not really where I want to be at but the stress and stuff, I need to make money, make money, then relapse and be way back to where it was. And usually, like, I found every time would be worse, like, every relapse or every time I would go back, it would be more drugs, more side effects, more depression, more withdrawals. And so with this job, I could actually function, but they just didn't have the hours, and then really just kind of holding on and still to kind of do my best.
Ryan Nielsen 13:51
And luckily, that kind of was able to move up and get to like the $18 an hour point where I was like, "Okay, I'm a lead outreach person." And that felt really good. 'Cause I felt like even though it was an extra $3, like, I had more responsibilities, or now I was like, "Okay, now I'm in charge of the outreach team, and where we go," and do all that, and um, helped a little bit more with the money and stuff, I think.
Samantha Tsang 14:15
Um, what would you say would be your main support system through those trickier financial times that you had? Because you mentioned previously, that the ideals that you were raised with was to always maintain a job and to maintain a home? So how does that kind of play into this and what helped you out?
Ryan Nielsen 14:33
Yeah, so like, I, that's kind of part of it, too, or, I grew up with that. So I always had to make that money and have the job and stuff. But during this, like tougher financial times, I think like, I think like, it's just like the family, family or counseling. I know, during the before times, I would have, like, a counselor still. And he'd be really helpful for financial times where he'd be like, "Is this the first time you'd been at this point?" And I'd be like, "No," so that kind of, almost like an epiphany for me, I was like, "Wait a second, I've been broke how many times in my life? And every time I get out of it, or something else happens." And so that was really helpful. And just talking to people, like, I can really trust and care about like, of the family and stuff and just kind of letting them hear what I had to say and give me maybe some pointers and tips.
Ryan Nielsen 15:20
And it really did help me too, was just being struggling like that for so long. Particularly like I grew up in really in like, the States where I was really, really [in] poverty, where I particularly grew up. And after a while you kind of like learn how to be really lean and stuff. So you really learned how to like look for deals, you look how to budget, how to limit your spendings and stuff. So those things really help me when I am struggling. And then just really about having, like, taking care of your mental health when you can and making sure that that doesn't get out of out of control. Because like for me, I always find because maybe because it was so like, brought up with my dad and my family. But that's super important for me. And if I am struggling more financially and stuff, I get really depressed and really down really quickly. So that's, I really try to go with the flow and get support services and stuff like that from family, friends.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 16:10
Yeah. And I know you were mentioning having recently been promoted. So congratulations.
Ryan Nielsen 16:17
Thank you
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 16:18
For the, as far as when you first started at that, you know, $15 an hour, you know, for your colleagues who are likely in those positions right now. Is this enough for the kind of work that they do? And given the challenges associated with that work?
Ryan Nielsen 16:34
No, I don't think it is at all. Because I talked to them, like, a lot about it. It's always brought up to me about how they're struggling really bad with money and stuff. And that almost kinda bothers me sometimes because they'll almost do like some of the same stuff I do or they're taking initiative. They're helping me with the person dying outside, like, maybe not as hands on, but they're still there and witnessing all of that and they don't have enough money to, like, usually pay for the bills and stuff, so some of them will actually go home and pick up bottles when they get home and stuff. And like, that's crazy. Like, I can't imagine doing the shifts I do already and then having to like, go home and like, stress out about picking up all the bottles on my street and stuff after, like, a eight hour shift of that, like, I feel like that's gonna be more burnout. You can always tell with the people too, right?
Ryan Nielsen 17:21
Like, they'll take more time off work and they don't get paid for it, right? But it's just like, they are burning themselves out, go back to work, try to make that much, burn themselves out. And it's like this cycle to the point where then they leave, or like, something happens, and then we get someone else. And like, I've seen that for a while now, not just with my, like, job, but like, other similar jobs and stuff, that seems to be really common with everybody.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 17:47
Yeah, for sure. And it's definitely something that's prevalent in a lot of a lot of these, like community-level, grassroots initiatives. And how do you, how would you in an ideal world, envision that cycle being broken, of this rapid turnover due to burnout and lack of financial security in, in that work?
Ryan Nielsen 18:09
Um like, ideally, I guess, like, if I were in charge of everything, I guess, like, I would be like, one's like, where did the money come from and stuff? And so I was able to help a little bit with that. And they do get grants and stuff. And they do get a large chunk of it. But it's, I guess like, more managing where that money goes to and stuff too. I think like, there's a lot of people like, behind the scenes that have all these great ideas and stuff, but they like, tried to do a whole bunch of ideas with the certain money. And I would try to get really, I guess like, lean with that. And like, yeah, that's a big one is like, okay, how can we bring in more money for people? And then what are ways that we can, like, set up a schedule or system in place where we have an extra staff available, like on-call, or something, or even two or three volunteers too. So getting all the volunteers that want to do stuff for free, having them on a schedule too, where if someone is sick, or someone needs extra support, or whatnot, they can, they can go home, have someone replace them, so they're not stressing about that, get some maybe even, like, time off, almost like sick days.
Ryan Nielsen 19:08
People have sick days at work and stuff, but like I get sick days too, but like some of the staff don't get it if they are under a certain amount of hours and stuff. And I feel like that could be really important thing to put the budget and funding onto, is because that would be like a stress relief, because they can not worry about not getting paid if they have to take a day off and stuff. For there to be similar support services like that we give out for our own staff. So like the counseling we use is always for clients. But like, I'm not sure why there can't be one for employees or staff that's confidential, maybe getting a practicum student or someone from a school and then we can let them help us with counseling or teach us some tricks and stuff. And just like, I guess a lot of like, trying to really think creative of how to like, bring more money in and more support services, because I really want an ideal world for people to make the right amount of money, like, more than minimum wage, for them to have days off if they need it, for calling in sick, for everyone to be in a really effective open communication. So everyone feels like they can communicate and lean on each other. That one person needs to do something else and they feel like they can't do it, the other person can take over and vice versa, where it's like a big harmonized group where everyone is just connected, and like a, truly one big team, I guess.
Ryan Nielsen 20:32
And then I think that would be really ideal. And I think it would help more people out too. The staff are, like, doing their best and not hold, or not being held back by all these barriers and stuff. They would probably even bring more money in, you know, and stuff too, because people would see all the work that's getting done and that's kind of how they probably get more money. It's like "oh, well if this is all getting done, then they probably can do with more, they could do a lot more."
Thomas Chunyungco 21:01
Does your financial compensation allow you to think this is a suitable career path for you?
Ryan Nielsen 21:07
No it doesn't, actually. That's part of it too. Like if I can make the same amount of money going to marketing than I am doing right now, then I would stick with what I'm doing right now. Like 100%. There's nothing more than I want to do more than to help people that were in the same spot as I was and stuff, like there's, it's hard to explain, like, I've worked a lot of jobs in my life and like, this one really feels like not, it's, it feels like a job but not, not like a job at the same time, where it feels like I'm doing something I generally want to do even if I wasn't working and stuff. But then with the money and stuff, it stresses me out so much, like, I see our, the rent going up all the time, I see inflation. I see like the price of groceries. Like, I don't think I could be happy if, like, that was my whole life and there was no going out, there was no going out and vacations or traveling, and like, that was just my whole life was, like, I don't know what to do about that. Like I wouldn't like it, that's for sure.
Samantha Tsang 22:01
Have you or are you kind of doing a side job to compensate for that? And like, Have you considered it? Are you doing something like that?
Ryan Nielsen 22:11
Kinda. Like, I've started thinking about it. That's part of why I'm even kind of in this research project thing. I was really trying to find, like, side incomes, even if they're little ones. Just like, how can I not be reliant on just that? And it's kind of cool. Like, I know, doing this thing has been really awesome that I'm helping out KPU and do a lot of research on this and actually tackle the problem and still kind of make money. I guess, to kind of find more of those kinds of programs out there. Yeah, just kind of keeping an eye out. I might try to do something like that, even like a normal coffee job or something. I don't know. Just get some other incomes going on? Or like, dog walking or something, yeah. Teally trying to like, come creative and think of some ideas. And I don't know.
Samantha Tsang 22:57
I guess this will also kind of relate to what you mentioned about your past effecting you. Have you considered courses where you can get, like, a certificate or a small diploma, and then kind of try to find, not necessarily a career but at least like, a more high paying job to even do as a part time? And do you think that there's a huge effect on your pas if you were to go down this pathway?
Ryan Nielsen 23:27
But yeah, maybe maybe like, not understand the question, really. But like, I got a somewhat diploma for, like, plumbing and stuff. So like, that's higher paying income and stuff. But I know I was really bad in my addiction at the time and stuff. So I don't know, if I go through, like, references and stuff. I don't know, because I know the last couple ones ended really bad. I know, one of them was just like, was having real bad withdrawals or something and just like left mid, mid during the work thing. So I know, that would be really bad one. I know the one before that is probably not much better. Like I think same thing, especially with, like, the construction work. It's like, are you reliable? Were you coming to shift every day? But they're like, "Okay, this guy was kind of having to redo a lot of things, like, three or four times." And, you know, wouldn't show up to work all the time, or "he would be late and all these things." I don't think I can do it. Yeah, I think that would be pretty impacted negatively.
Ryan Nielsen 24:28
I think I could go back to, like, possibly like, doing some meat cutting and stuff before. I know that one was a higher paying income. And they were pretty good about it, too. I think. They know about my past. I just don't know, either. Because sometimes, like, a lot of rumors were going on last time, there, and or people don't quite understand addiction, and I'm not sure if I could work at a job, still, where like, people are still kind of looking down on you or differently. Like, it could be different from last time. I just don't know. I don't want to put too much on my mental health too that's the thing, right? 'Cause I know, like, kind of as is, it seems to be a lot. And yeah, with those other jobs, too they want more hours, I think too, it's kind of more steady, or it's like do I have another four hours a day to do a shift? Or not, like, four hours a day, but like, an extra 12 hours a week, four hour days, shifts, and I'm not sure I could throw that in there. I probably could do another, like, small things like, another one or two hour things, but just gotta keep on looking for things like this online.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 25:25
I know you mentioned briefly about how you would certainly earn more in marketing than you would in, um, in your current line of work in harm reduction. I think that this also says a lot about where society kind of places emphasis or places value in, in just the work being done. Right? Like what kind of work is "worth more," so to speak in big quotes. Right? And yeah, I guess I think this would be an interesting segue as well to, to just how this work is portrayed in the media.
Ryan Nielsen 25:59
Yeah, yeah. Right? And yeah, that's definitely, like, a part of it for me and stuff with like, who I share and who I talketo with public and stuff, in like the media. I see it a lot more on the news. So when you turn it on and like, especially when you read the comments section and of a lot of these ones, it's like pretty nasty, some of the things or, and that spreads to people, like, even I work with when we're trying to do like, fairs or events and like, you have some random normal looking person, like, older guy or, you know, middle aged, and they'll just come up and be like, "yeah, all these guys deserve to die," like, "they're forcing that," "how stupid can they be? Like like they're putting this poison in their body," and like, blah blah, blah, blah. And you're just like, it's hard to like, get engaged in that or not feel bad about that, I guess. And yeah, and so I guess, like, the media seeing that all the time, I know it's still a thing. I still experience it, which is still a thing and for the higher paying job and stuff right?
Ryan Nielsen 26:50
It's just like, I think like, we're really split society. Or not even split, like, split but more on like, the still not quite understanding addiction stuff. And so having that, like typical, you know, homeless person, unhoused, on the street and stuff, and like, just like, how different that is, right? Like, I know, like when I was using stuff, just like, the amount of normal people, like I said, it was just insane. Like, that was the majority of people. And it's always like that, the small number of people that can't handle them and that stuff, are always the homeless people, but those are just the people--It's like alcohol, right? You have alcoholics, homeless too, but you don't have majority people that drink homeless, right? So it's the kind of the same thing with drugs, where a lot of people have like, such a different mind on it. Yeah, I dunno. It's weird. Like, I still try to mention it to people sometimes when I hear that, it's just like, yeah, I want to stick back to the marketing job, I guess. Right?
Ryan Nielsen 27:38
Where, I mean, like, I feel like even nurses and stuff, when they talk about our medical system, right? Like, they don't usually get paid high paying jobs. But if someone wanted to get into, like, selling cigarettes or something, right? There. Or pharmacies, right? Pharmaceuticals. Both health professions, but one, like, you make a ton of money, one you don't. But one, you're really actually doing hard work that you couldn't do as pharmacist, where you need that, like, one-on-one care, you're talking to these patients and stuff.
Thomas Chunyungco 28:02
Do you have challenges paying for things such as food or housing, and even, or supporting your family or dependents, if this is relevant?
Ryan Nielsen 28:10
Yeah, no, definitely. I still struggle about that. Like, even this week, I know my dad's really struggling. My mom's like, kind of sick. So she's got, like, we don't know what's going on. Like, could be, like, a tumor or something. Has these seizures, dad's like, really screwed for money. He works, self-employed, started, new job, it's not doing well. And it's hard because, like, they really need money, it's stressing them out. And like, okay, I want to give him money. But, and I will, but in the same sense. Like, I get really depressed when I try to like, like, I don't want to keep on living in the basement of my parents house. Like, you know, I want to have my own place and especially when you've done it before, and I couldn't do that right now. Like, there's just no way. I have no idea how I would afford $1900 a month without utilities and stuff, then that's like, that's pretty much all the money I make, which I already feel like I'm doing kind of good money. And that's like, because with school, there's no way I can do both. So with school, and that, I couldn't. And I feel trapped in a lot of ways
Ryan Nielsen 29:08
Like, I feel like, there's not much I can do. It's either being homeless or, you know, stay here in the parents’ basement. And that's frustrating. I find, you know, even the car and stuff, like, I don't think I could do that either. I don't know. Like, yeah, I don't know, it really stresses me out, actually, not to say that, like, it bothers me all the time. That's why I'm, I was even talking about earlie,r about like multiple ideas and trying to find out different incomes, because like, I'm really sick of it, like being stuck, like, can't do anything to do, and working so hard to like really not go that far ahead. So I have to really think outside the box and think of, like, investing in investments and stuff. So I can get to a place where I could maybe do this full time, like, as my retirement or something at a moderational level and stuff and really get back, because it's, I don't know, like, I feel like I've done this before when I was younger, where I'd chase money really bad. Kind of got that. And I was so depressed, because I thought, like ,that would change everything. And I'd be happy. And I wasn't.
Ryan Nielsen 30:05
And I feel like, you know, we all have gifts, like, every single one of us. And that's different for, it's specific to who you are, right? And if you're able to make that gift, and combine that with something that you enjoy doing. You can really give back to the world and stuff, and like, you feel like all these people like Michael Jackson, all these things, but like, they're like, doing their talent. But every one of us is a Michael Jackson, whether we have that talent or not, right? I really would love to actually do something, like, my talent, which is like, empathizing, talking to people. Like, for whatever reason, people feel like they can tell me and talk to me, and I can think of the right words. And I would love to do that, right? But I can't with this society and how much money it is and my own happiness and stuff. So it's like, getting to that point. Right?
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 30:54
For sure. And I think it was really poignant, how you drew that comparison to health care workers earlier, right? Kind of like that one-on-one empathetic, person specific care that is somehow devalued compared to, you know, that guy behind the counter giving you your prescriptions, right?
Ryan Nielsen 31:10
Yeah.
Samantha Tsang 31:11
Yeah. And it's crazy to think about how all these different values are placed on to certain job descriptions, and it really emphasizes what society deems as worthy and valuable.
Ryan Nielsen 31:25
Yeah, right? It's really weird. Yeah. I dunno, I guess that's like, for different cultures, too, I guess. Right. But, and cultures change too. And I feel like ours is changing as well. So it's kind of...
Samantha Tsang 31:34
Do you forsee see this line of work, getting the value that it deserves, and the pay for the staff that are making this happen?
Ryan Nielsen 31:45
Like I'm in the maybes. I think so and also don't think so, like, I've got lots of hope for my particular, like, organization, because it's new, in the year, right? So a lot of times they need to start off just to get to the point where they can be more, pay people better, like, in Vancouver's Insight or Safe Space and all those places, but I think it's really goes into like, like, the leadership and management roles and stuff like, like the person above me, they're kind of looking for someone different. Possibly. She's been sick. And it's one of those things where like, I find that if the old person still has an addiction, I think, or like pretty strongly think of it, has a lot of things going, like, sideways. And so like, this has to be run like a business too like a successful business, even though it's nonprofit, but like you have to, you know, you have to treat it like a job, I guess, sometimes. When you have people, I find, like, started because you want to get people that are in recovery to do it.
Ryan Nielsen 32:37
But also like, don't want to do that sometimes, because it's like, it's a big risk where they do have a relapse or something, they won't tell people and they're in charge a lot of money and like, where things go. I think if that's the case, then then things won't get better, things will actually get worse, because then the problem is not going anywhere. But if it's the right people, the right type of management, and they're able to grow the business and stuff. And, for sure. I'm really trying that recently, is just like, getting the statistics and stuff for the grants and stuff to show that we are building up, like, the shower program and stuff. And with that, that can actually get us more money, more money, we can actually afford to pay people the extra $5 an hour and those things and maybe even getting longer contracts and stuff. I mean, that's hard with the nonprofit and these harm reduction businesses and stuff, because we're all going off grants, and they're all off contracts. So yes, you have a contract for a year or two. But it's kind of hard to guarantee someone to pay that much money if the contract ends in a year.
Thomas Chunyungco 33:36
Does the money you earn feel appropriate for the type of work that you do and for the challenges and stressors you face?
Ryan Nielsen 33:44
Yeah, I think not quite. But for a lot of it and stuff. Yeah. I think like, I think, like a little bit more, for sure, with some of the stuff I do. Like I said, for my particular situation and stuff, I don't really have anything set up or any other options right now, just to kind of stick with what I'm doing and stuff. But I feel like it should be a little bit more, just for one night, those being in charge of a lot of people and responsibility and like, life or death, I feel like that's a pretty serious thing. People should get paid for that or traumatic experiences and stuff. It's, a lot of the stuff can be really traumatic, actually. And then it's like, we want to make sure people are getting paid for that.
Samantha Tsang 34:21
Maybe circling back to the minimum wage. What do you, what would you deem as the appropriate starting wage for somebody who may work for your organization? Or anybody else in this line of work? What do you deem as the right pay? In a perfect world?
Ryan Nielsen 34:39
Yeah, $22.50, I think. $22.50. Maybe some $19 or $18.50 an hour for some of the outreach stuff. But I would say for like everything else, $22.50, because there's just a lot of tasks to go on, right? It's um, you got to be trained in like the first aid. So you're responsible for like, all that kind of stuff. You're responsible for Naloxone... Yeah, identifying certain, I guess drugs and stuff, I guess, right? So drug tests, or drug checking machines and closing responsibilities. All that? Yeah, I would say that makes sense.
Samantha Tsang 35:11
And for things like first aid certification, and all the pre-work training that goes into actually doing the job. Does your organization compensate the employees for that? And --
Ryan Nielsen 35:24
yeah --
Samantha Tsang 35:25
do they also pay for the certifications? Because I know, first aid can get quite expensive --
Ryan Nielsen 35:29
yes --
Samantha Tsang 35:29
depending --
Ryan Nielsen 35:30
Yeah, so they pay for certification for you to do it as well, like, they actually count as hours. But I just feel like they need to do it to more people. So like, people on the leadership roles and stuff will have it, but like a lot of people, a lot of the other workers and stuff don't have that, I guess. And like I find that would be really essential, like the non-violent crisis intervention one, the food safe, and first aid, because otherwise, I guess that's what I was saying before. It's like, I feel like I'm the only person, like, a lot of times, at the departments or the place, that know that. So like, when there's an overdose thing, sometimes there's almost like, they can get in the way, trying to ask you something, you're like, "I just need to focus and see what their heads like." And if I need to do that, the airways, and there's a lot to like, think about when you're trying to do that stuff. So I feel like if more staff had that too, that'd be really helpful. Then they can respond to it as well.
Samantha Tsang 36:17
Do you think that the lack of certifications correlates directly with the lack of funding that the organization gets? Or do you think they're two separate issues on their own?
Ryan Nielsen 36:29
I think they're two separate issues, actually... I think, like, the main Sources, like the main organization has the funding to do that. Sometimes they separate a little bit with this department, even though they're all in Sources. This one's like, not part of the regular departments and stuff, right? So they do their own grants and stuff, but Sources sometimes will step in and use some of their funding and stuff to do that. So I feel like we can, it's just, yeah, probably worth talking to them actually. Like next time I see them about it,
Samantha Tsang 36:58
Yeah, no, for sure, because even if a part time or short, contracted staff has say emergency first aid that will help a bunch?
Ryan Nielsen 37:08
Oh yeah!
Samantha Tsang 37:09
Even just getting ABCs out of the way, or putting somebody in prone properly and, you know, all those little things while you, you're able to better triage a, you know, hypothetical multi-person situation or if --
Ryan Nielsen 37:23
yeah --
Samantha Tsang 37:23
you're the only managerial individual in the building, any of that.
Ryan Nielsen 37:27
Yeah, no, I agree, that would be so helpful. Like, so helpful.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 37:32
Yeah. I was just gonna ask another question before we, before we wrap up. I know, we touched on this briefly in terms of the value attributed to this line of work. And there's a lot of knowledge that goes into this, not only in terms of lived experience, but also in this very specific training that's akin to a health care worker, in many respects. And, you know, given this, how, how do we envision, like, changing minds over, over the course of time, as we were, as we were discussing?
Ryan Nielsen 38:06
I think it's like, it's really trying to get so that person, like, not think from their own view. So Iike, thinking in someone else's perspective and stuff. And like, that's really about, like, truly growing, I guess like, inclusion or difference of opinion and thought and stuff. I don't know. I think we're doing, like we're on the right path a lot of the time, like, you see it a lot more now about like, empathize and empathy and what it means and versus sympathy and all these things. But it's like those, and having more dialogue events, where from both sides, like, people that are in my work field too, like, need to be able to also sit down and listen from different perspectives and different points of views, because everyone here has, like, a different view, because we're all raised differently, right? We all have different experiences, like even right now, right? We're all seeing something different on our screens. But we're both, we're all in the meeting together. But we're all, have a different reality for the same meeting.
Ryan Nielsen 38:54
And so we've got to really, like, let people get to that point where they can understand that and like, learn from other ones and stuff. Because there has to be, like, that mutual dialogue event, like, and that's something our work has been trying, is not actual debates, but like, like healthy dialogue events. And we try to like teach people how to have healthy dialogue events, right. And like, Here's what a healthy one looks like. And everyone feels heard. Everyone feels like, not offended or like that, because it's hard, right? Especially with these kinds of things, like, really controversial or really strong opinions have, it's hard not to get offended or not hard to get, like, your emotions attached to these things. And that's um, so really about, like, teaching the community at large, because everyone needs to be part of it. It can't just be, like, a few people, right? Everyone has to be down the same goal that we all want to help each other out. We all want to. We're all humans, right? We're all in this journey together. And we should all be trying to like, learn and help each other and do things, right? And the only way you can do that is the do dialogue and teach that stuff.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 39:59
For sure. Thank you for that lovely, well thought out answer.
Ryan Nielsen 40:04
Thank you.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 40:05
Yeah, just given everything we've spoken about, is there anything that you, that you wanted to add or that you wanted to bring to the table, related or unrelated to what we've spoken about?
Ryan Nielsen 40:15
Yeah, I think, the, I guess, last thing I'll say is like, aspect of the money and stuff is just like, affordability and stuff. Because I know like, you know, when I was 18 or 19, when I was living my own in Canada, here in BC and, like, minimum wage, right? But I was able to get a place for $760, 1 bedroom. So I had money to buy my food and still go out, you know, once or twice a month. And like, I think that's the other point of this, like a financial thing is like, yes, making more money is good, but at the same time, like if price living went up and other like, you know, ten, five grand, and you got the extra $5 or $10 wage, it really wouldn't matter, actually. Because, you know, things just got more expensive than your money. So it's almost like that you're not keeping up with inflation and stuff. And so that's really important. Because like, I talked to like a lot of people, a lot of peers and stuff.
Ryan Nielsen 41:03
It's like, the biggest thing people want is a place, right? Or somewhere to stay. And like, I guess what I was even talking about earlier, is like someone like me, that's working like, pretty good job, right? Not minimum wage, all these things. And like, I could not survive on my own right now, like, it'd be really impossible to do that. And then so, how is someone who's like homeless or making like, you know, welfare and plus a little bit of work a month? How are they going to do that? And like they need it a lot, because trust me, like, you're not good. It's really hard to get off opiates if you have a nice place and the recovery center and all that. It's going to be even way harder on the street doing that stuff. Like, I don't know how you can do it. So having that, tackling that almost would be an important thing, is the housing, affordability, and even coming up with low-income housing and stuff. Like, they did that in the States where I grew up and like, you know? But at least people could afford it, right? So that's all.
Samantha Tsang 42:00
I guess, open-mic? Anything else anybody would like to add or say in the last few minutes here? Yeah, Ryan, any final thoughts?
Ryan Nielsen 42:08
It's just really nice today, I really enjoyed the talk and nice meeting you, Melissa.
Melissa Spiridigliozzi 42:12
It was nice meeting you as well.
Caitlin Burritt 42:14
That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast, to listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com. And if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com Thank you for listening.