
Unsilencing Stories
Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller communities in B.C. and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal opioid overdose. The project was facilitated by Aaron Goodman, Ph.D., faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, B.C., and student researchers, Jenna Keeble and Ashley Pocrnich.
In this phase, we’re sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of B.C. The B.C. Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as “support services and strategies” that aim to keep people safe and minimize death, disease, and injury from high risk behaviour.”
Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers, including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in B.C. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face, including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing, and stressors at work.
We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face
The podcast is part of a research study led by Aaron Goodman and conducted under the auspices of the Chancellor’s Chair Award. Several researchers, including Caitlin Burritt, Chloe Burritt, and Giorgia Ricciardi, and a number of student research assistants played key roles in the study, and you’ll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Unsilencing Stories
Ryan Nielsen: Episode 5: Lack of Respect & Recognition at Work
In this episode, you'll hear Ryan Nielson talk to Thomas Chunyungco and Samantha Tsang about experiencing a lack of recognition and respect in previous workplaces when being upfront about his substance use. He discusses how the attitudes of his coworkers changed towards him and how he tried to compensate by working extra hard. Ryan discusses the way that stigma against people who use drugs affected his employment, his access to healthcare resources, and the feelings of social isolation he felt as a result.
Glossary:
CAT: Community Action Team
CBT: Cognitive Behavioural Therapy
Chinatown (Vancouver, BC): A neighbourhood near Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside, known for having a large unhoused population, many of whom are affected by substance use disorder.
CPI Training: Crisis Prevention and de-escalation training, through the Crisis Prevention Institute.
DBT: Dialectical Behavior Therapy.
Hoot: a single inhalation of a drug.
OPS: Overdose Prevention Site
Options: Options Community Services, an non-profit organization which provides social services primarily in Surrey, Delta, White Rock and Langley.
Purdue Pharma: A private American pharmaceutical company which manufactured pain medicines, most famously OxyContin, which the company claimed had very limited potential for addiction or abuse. Purdue is considered a major contributor to America's opioid crisis because of the company’s misleading marketing of OxyContin.
Oxycontin: A highly addictive opioid pain relief drug created by Purdue Pharma.
RCMP: Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Sources Program: part of the Sources Community Resource Centres, a community-based, non-profit society that offers a variety of social wellness programmes in White Rock, Surrey and other communities in BC.
This episode was recorded on February 6, 2023.
Caitlin Burritt 00:00
Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016, according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers also known as peers in different parts of BC.
Caitlin Burritt 00:27
The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.
Caitlin Burritt 01:06
Please note this podcast contains information about substance use overdose death, grief, trauma, and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project a number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study, and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Caitlin Burritt 01:40
In this episode, you'll hear Ryan Nielson talk to Thomas Chunyungco and Samantha Tsang about experiencing a lack of recognition and respect in previous workplaces when being upfront about his substance use. He discusses how the attitudes of his coworkers changed towards him and how he tried to compensate by working extra hard. Ryan discusses the way that stigma against people who use drugs affected his employment, his access to healthcare resources, and the feelings of social isolation he felt as a result.
Thomas Chunyungco 02:05
Okay, so for today's topic, um, it is going [to be] on lack of recognition and respect at work. So I was maybe wondering, Ryan, if you would like to give a bit of an intro to, like, what you've seen based on, like, your experience, and pretty much just how you handle certain situations to get the respect that you need?
Ryan Nielsen 02:33
For me, I've noticed that really strongly, in like, almost all my workplaces, I guess, technically there's even a little bit, I feel like, somewhat at the current job I have. But like, for example, like when I was first working at, like, Save On Foods, or kind of like, grocery store, like, same kind of thing, where I was like, "okay, I'm doing really well at work. And I'm kind of getting respect and recognition that I, like, I was looking for and doing really well." And then kind of like having my first time where I'm like, sick off medication, or have to take a few days off. And kind of remember that happened and just getting like, "okay, well, why did you miss work?" and being kind of like, courageous and being upfront with being like, "yeah, like, I kind of had this situation now I'm switched to a medication to help me with this," like, Methadone at the time.
Ryan Nielsen 03:26
So I'll be doing that and that should help me with this thing. But just like, the way that everything just changed over from that day forward, where you're going to work now, and then they're not quite talking to you, or they're ignoring you, like, on purpose. And you're like, "this is weird," like, "pretty sure, like I've said--called their name a few times," and they're not even like looking up and stuff. And just like little hints like that, or kind of switching the hours around. And then, so you're feeling really not valued and kind of progresses into more stuff where you're doing more work, I guess, like, or doing jobs that you normally wouldn't do, kind of like, maybe the, like, taking out the garbage, or doing those kind of roles. And so you're doing that and they're ignoring you, but they're also kinda, like, maybe more nitpicking, a little bit.
Ryan Nielsen 04:14
So it was like, "alright, you did this wrong, or you did this." So it's like, you feel like it's almost a personal attack. Like, that just kind of, almost for me, like almost trying to hide my addiction more if I could, which is a really hard thing to do. But just like seeing the way I was treated differently, and not only that, just like you feel, I don't know, you feel like a gross human being or something, like there's something wrong with you. And then you start having a little bit more of [those] self talk thoughts, were like, "Alright, I'm, like, I'm a loser," or" I'm doing something wrong." Or like, you know, "everyone else seems to be fine at work" and doing these things. And no, I got to the point where I tried to switch to a different job and get, like, different locations, because of how bad it got for me there, were I was just like, this is not... Um. Or I'd rather be, like-- not work anything at all than have this continue job. And then my next place was really good as well. But then same kind of thing, when I tried to be a little more upfront, because these people seemed a little bit more, like, I guess accepting-- acceptable.
Ryan Nielsen 05:16
So it's like, alright, I can maybe tell my new employees this and they'll handle a lot differently than they did last time. And then same thing where it's, like, almost like, micromanaging people afterwards and then throwing little suggestions and stuff or, like, I remember particularly at this job, at the Choices, the second one, where they couldn't understand it. So they'd be like, "you know, why can't you just you know, use moderately or just use a drink?" or like "why do you need to become so obsessed with it and like ruin your other parts of your life?" or like, almost like combining too, like, alcohol and drug addiction, where it's like, "okay, well you should be able to drink, then why don't you just [drink] booze? Like why are you doing this other thing?" That one was, like, really hard because I was working really hard too, like, I was trying to work extra hard to make up for the fact that I'm not getting the recognition at work because of the addiction. So I would, like, not take my breaks at work, I would try to show up like 15 minutes early, and I'd try to always leave half an hour later, so.
Ryan Nielsen 06:10
Nobody else was doing that. And they almost became, like, dependent on that new work ethic I had. So they started expecting that every time and so it's like "why isn't the place clean like this? Why haven't you done this and that?" I don't know, I [felt], like, trapped almost at one point there where I just felt like, "okay I need to make money for my, like, to survive and as well I need it to not feel sick, but the same time I have to work extra hard; got to not take breaks." I got to do all these things that typically in like workers rights would be like... you can't do that. It's not, like, allowed, but same thing. Were you're just really trying to get that recognition at work. Like, just really pushing myself to the edge by trying to get that, I guess. Did that and then I guess now with my new job it's like a lot better, as it's trying to tackle that and stuff. But it's still, I guess like, into situations where I still kind of feel that sometimes I work where was expected take on a whole lot now or something because I have that post-recovery, and also where I feel like...
Ryan Nielsen 07:09
I'm almost supposed to be like fixed or something where I couldn't really bring up any of those hardships, I feel like sometimes be at work, where it's like, "okay, what are they gonna think about me?" I mean, some of this might be just from my past experience, where I'm like, super, like," okay, this next employer, even though they're act different, will probably act the same based on my other experiences at work." And then also, like, will I lose positions and stuff, if I say I'm struggling more at certain times or not? And yeah, I noticed that with other people I talked to as well.
Samantha Tsang 07:42
Yeah, actually, I think our next follow up question would be to kind of just see, if outside of work, you feel that same? So if you kind of want to go into that, and give a little bit, that'd be great.
Ryan Nielsen 07:55
Yeah, um, so even outside of work and stuff, you're trying to, like, get that recognition of being a human being or even just like, that you are in society, and you're working, and you're doing everything, because that's kind of where I felt like, I was, like, I'm still paying taxes, I'm still doing everything like everyone else is doing. But I'm not seen like that at all in society. And I don't know, it's a really bad experience, because it's like, people will say things, or they'll look at you differently on the bus, or you're walking down. And, or even like, you go into a store, right? Or, like, I need to use the bathroom at a certain Tim Hortons or something. And based on the way you look, or present yourself, in that time, it's like, you're not allowed to use the bathroom. Something's wrong it or they're broken, but you've just seen someone use it. So you're like, "well, no, this isn't like... that doesn't make sense. If it's broken, then how does someone just use it?" Right?
Ryan Nielsen 08:45
So it's like, it's hard not to take that as yourself and be like, "okay, this is something wrong with me. And I'm not in society," because apparently, you know, I feel like I'm doing all the stuff in society, but I'm not allowed to do these basic things that other people can do. Like, even my family, I found that a lot where they didn't quite fully understand everything. And so it was just like, you know, "why are you doing this? Why are you doing this, and you should be doing more stuff." And for me, it was just kind of like, you know, I was doing the best I could, at the time, not having that support, or like... thing from the family, even, where they kind of just, like, see you as someone else. They don't talk to, like, they don't mention you to friends or family. You're never in the conversations. It's almost like they want to pretend that doesn't exist
Ryan Nielsen 09:29
and so like, I found that at, like, family, I found that at work, and I found that outside of work, even just doing everything, everyday things like using the restaurants or going shopping, you'd have like, shoppers follow you, like, the secret shoppers and stuff. And so you're just like, "okay, wow, like, people don't want me here and stuff." But like, at the same time, I have to exist here and to function and [be a] part of society. Yeah. And I found that really, like, I guess difficult. And because it's like, I feel like everyone wants to feel connected and like they're part of something or they're not, like they're human. And when you're not getting that you just kind of, go, you take it more towards yourself, at least that's what I did. I was like, "okay, this is this, something's totally wrong with me. I'm like a weirdo." And like, repeated that over and over again, to the point where even at these jobs when I was trying not to... well I wasn't getting recognition or something would happen where they would, you know, some brand new hire, they put a lot of emphasis on him, and not me.
Ryan Nielsen 10:27
And then I kind of, like I said, take it out on myself, like physically, it's like, "okay, go on and self harm," because that was just kind of like, [the] cycle I got from a lot of this stuff here, I guess. Right? And then when... the rare times I did have someone kind of actually treat me, like, recognition at work and stuff, it felt so weird, because I'm not used to it. Where it was almost like, I don't know, just more cautious of it.
Thomas Chunyungco 10:50
Are there any barriers to asking to be treated with more respect at work?
Ryan Nielsen 10:57
I think there are a lot of barriers because, like, you can't talk about it open, I feel like sometimes. And like that's a huge barrier. Because if you can't communicate effectively to people at your employer then that's like a huge barrier for other accesses as well. And I still feel like that a lot. Like, maybe not like, in my current, current job as much, but like, I know if I wanted to go apply at, like, some other job, or if I got back into the trades or something like that, particularly, it'd be really bad, like, so it's like, "okay, I'm gonna go there. And if something happens, or I need more support for my recovery, I feel like I cannot tell my employer that I," sorry, I like, I'm remembering now but like, I worked in the trades for a while after KPU and stuff and that was by far the worst one for barriers and stuff. It was like this whole stigma of like, you show up to work regardless if you're hung over or how you feel. And like you just kind of be this tough, tough man kind of thing, and like, power through it.
Ryan Nielsen 11:56
And I remember that so many times where, like, I didn't know what to do because I couldn't say anything to these people. 'Cause I see it, like, firsthand like, a member, someone in there did struggle and have an addiction for like... and they missed a few days at work and the same thing, they were fired at. And like more than just getting fired at, they were like made fun of afterwards. So like, in the lunch room and stuff they were talking about, like, "can you believe this guy? He like, he's such a crackhead. He's doing this crap," right? And "what a loser like he's probably got this and that." And so you're there, you're hearing this and like, you are going through it yourself at the same time. And you're like, "well, I definitely do not want to be made fun of, of all this stuff." And kind of like where I was talking about earlier is, like, you're already going through this all the time, every day with people at, you know, Superstore, all these things. And then so you're like, "okay, I don't want to do this too, at work." And on top of that, I have to go back to family that also I have to kind of hide it for.
Ryan Nielsen 12:49
Another thing is people, like recognize that like, it's not like you can hide it, that's the thing. So it's like, you're constantly going to get that. So I would just, like, it's a point where I would just miss work. And then same thing where they, they would treat me extra worse for missing a day of work. Everyone else could do it. And they would kind of talk down to you on that. Like, "why did you miss work?" and then I'd have to make up some excuse, that couldn't be the truth. So it'd be like, "I had this happen" or whatever. And the same thing, where you kind of nitpick it more and more, more you're missing work, the more, like, they, I guess you're getting more, like, even worse with it, I guess just like, talking more down. So yeah, that was just like, a little bit tough. And then I guess other barriers would be like, I feel like medical too like, so if you needed, like, prescriptions or something and you needed to talk to your employer about this, it would be, like, really specific. I'm not sure if they still do that.
Ryan Nielsen 13:40
But I know, with my old jobs and stuff, they were like, "okay, well, what are you taking? What's the medication?" and all that and as soon as it's like some kind of opiate medication or something to help with those things that's like, flagged, they know this, they tell everybody else, whether they should or shouldn't. Even, like, I guess, HR, I've had difficulties with them in recovery as well. It's like, okay, you if you miss a certain amount of work, whether it's a month or two, it's like "when are you coming back to work, when are you doing this, when are you doing this?" And it's like, while I'm still on these medications, it's gonna take like, a long time, unfortunately, like, I want to do this properly. And same thing where it's like, how am I supposed to, you know, learn how to live in society, or do all these things, even manageable if I can't take time off work, if I'm not able to get support from all these people; my employers, family and stuff? And then I guess, like, even doctors, I found that for a while as well. I think that's still a really big barrier for a lot of people, is like accessing health resources and stuff from physicians and doctors.
Ryan Nielsen 14:42
Like for my own experience, like I've had, like, more so than not, I would say, as most doctors almost immediately ask you, like, "do you have any history of drug addiction?" or stuff, and they have a chart to go through your entire history, right? So they go down there, and they see that you were on opiate medications or whatever. And it's like, "okay, so you are an ex-drug addict," or this and that and regardless of its like, even now, if I come in there four of five years, that's the first thing they ask is like, "you, do have a history of drugs? Have you done injection?" and all these things. It's like, "no, like, didn't get that, do injections, but like, I have history with drugs," and then they'll talk, like, they'll talk to you like, you're like still an addict, right? So like, "okay, I can't sleep or I need this." And it's like, "okay, he's trying to get this medication. Are you trying to do this?" And it's like, "no, I'm not actually, I'm really not trying to do that. If I wanted to, I could probably go out on the street and grab it still. But like, I'm trying to get actual help. I'm trying to get your feedback on this, like, just like a normal person." And that's really difficult, even like, going to the ER, I think it was... maybe it was like, three, four months ago, and I had like some really bad back pain kind of going on. And I went in there.
Ryan Nielsen 15:51
And same thing, it was like, okay, they found out first, right away, that I had a history with it. And then I think I waited there like nine hours in like a separate room. It wasn't even with everybody else. And it was like in a closet or something. It was really weird. And I feel like eight hours sitting there on the floor with no one even saying, like, checking on me or asking me questions. I decided just to leave and like, alright, I was like, I went home, got my own medication. I had leftover took a little bit of that. So I'm like, okay, now I'm self medicating. Doing my own thing, acting like a doctor and stuff because I can't get seen, like, you know, I can't lay on the floor of a closet for eight hours, nine hours and not one person coming in checking you because then it's like, how long else am I gonna be here for? Right? It's like, I haven't even done the check in yet. So, like, that's, that's a hard barrier.
Ryan Nielsen 16:39
Like that's, um, I think I feel like I still need to deal with that. Like now, I still feel like I can't go to the [emergency] or a physician like that. I have to go through my own specific opiate doctor that understands that, which is like, she's not even a family doctor, so. Helps me with some things for opiate related but like, I'm still human. I still have to get a bunch of other things checked out and seen. But that's a huge issue with me, and especially with our doctors, how full they are already. So it's like if you're even able to find one and now you got to kind of deal with what you get. I find that a little frustrating, I guess. And then, yeah, I guess like, I'm lucky with the job I have now, but I definitely feel like if anything ever did happen with my recovery and stuff, there's no way I would ever be able to say anything with the barriers, even there, which is kind of weird. But yeah, that's kind of how I feel I guess.
Thomas Chunyungco 17:32
Um, have you ever had to ask others to treat you with respect at work?
Ryan Nielsen 17:38
Yes, I have. I've had to do that a few times. Like, at like, my last job and stuff. I was trying to ask people to respect me because just how rude it was, or just like, how they were talking about addicts and all these things. And I was like, "hey, you know, like, I do have a history with this" and couldn't understand it, right. And it was like, making a joke out of it. And like, people are saying, like, "you're too sensitive." Like, that was a big one for me, was like, "you're sensitive, you're too this." And like, maybe I am, but still, like, you try to like, work with someone, you know, and be like, you know, "don't do this." And I know, like this one situation there, [the] last job like they it was actually my manager there. So it was like an employee that worked with us. And he wouldn't stop and like, he's using these really mean names so I brought it up to the manager and stuff.
Ryan Nielsen 18:26
And then he said not to say anything, asked him to stop, did-- didn't do it. And then there's other workers around with me too. And they're going "wow, this is really, like, not cool." They're like "the stuff he says to you and stuff is just so like degrading and absolutely repulsive. Like you should bring this up to HR, I'll help you. Because we see this, right? And this is really not okay." So I brought it up to HR. And I guess because, like, I don't know what the story is. Maybe HR, like, is there to help the company or the manager is best friends with the employer or employee I was with, the manager. And because I remember, they took me aside specifically, both of them. And they said, "If you ever bring anything like this up to HR again, you're done. Like, we're firing you on the spot," and then yeah, and then he like treated me really bad afterwards.
Ryan Nielsen 19:16
Like it was, like, bad terms, derogatory terms. And like, just, it was brutal. And like, I was like, "okay, well, I can't go to HR for this, I'm still stuck with my addiction and stuff. I guess I gotta just put up with this." And I did for like a while. And like, same thing where it's like, you're going through that much, like, degrading and stuff, it's hard not to believe it yourself. Because you're like, like, "all my evidence around me suggests that it's true. You know, like that there is something wrong with me, I'm a weirdo, I should get treated like this, because that's just kind of how everybody treats me." So I guess I felt like I could not talk about it to other people, if I did bring it up it made it worse. So it's like, okay, can't do that. Yeah. And I still feel like I can't do that with a lot of people. There's a lot of people, most people I wouldn't say anything about my history or anything like that, just because of the barriers or the reactions I get from people.
Ryan Nielsen 20:13
And like, even when I'm at work, sometimes I do these like events, trying to, with the public trying to like, educate them and stuff. They'll come by and say their opinion, right? And they'll be like, "yeah, all these addicts just deserve to die. Like they should just be gone, they take up resources doing this." And so it's like, I know, when people are saying that, like, still recently, like as of like, last week and stuff, you're like, there's still these barriers in place in our society. Or, you see, like some of the stuff on the news, right? Like the homeless camp. And you'll see some of the comments and it's just like, there's too many of them to like, not feel okay to like, share that, I guess. Yeah.
Thomas Chunyungco 20:55
Do you feel reluctant, intimidated, or anxious about asking to be treated with greater respect at work?
Ryan Nielsen 21:03
Yeah, for sure. I definitely feel like really anxious, doing that kind of stuff. I think kind of like what I was talking about is like, all that history... it's like hardwired in my brain that like, do not do that. And like I said, when I see those things that kind of reinforce it more and more, it's like, that's just like so much anxiety to, to do that actually. I'm doing my best. Like, I'm really trying to learn how to do that. It just feels really weird to do and not like natural for me, to be honest. But like, I've been trying a little bit here and there, like, even my own work, there's couple people, right? I'll be like, "hey, just like, can you try to like treat me like this way?" or like "you know how I treat you like this? Do you think you can maybe try to do a little bit like that because this is how it makes me feel." And like it goes in the middle sometimes, right?
Ryan Nielsen 21:56
Sometimes it's like, defensive or like, "that's not what it is" or in a mood, and sometimes it goes well, and likem I do feel a little bit better sometimes afterwards where I'm like, "Yeah, this was a lot of anxiety doing it, but like, at least I'm trying to let people know how I want to be treated." And to keep it fair or equal, I guess, like, I think it's, especially if you're treating one person really well and nice, and we're not able to do it back. You're like, I don't know, just trying to say, I guess.
Samantha Tsang 22:26
Um, do you feel that, given all these barriers, that in a way, you might kind of be stuck down this career path, because they're the most understanding of your situation and everything else taken into consideration?
Ryan Nielsen 22:43
Yeah, that's actually a good question. Because like, I don't want to be in this career path long term, right? This [is] kind of like, when I'm in school, it'd be really nice. But I do worry about that a lot actually, like, because I've done some like, articles for Peace Arch News, or like some stuff where if you typed my name up on Google, you're going to come up with Ryan Nielson, opiate recovery person. So like, it's pretty hard to get that erased. And like, I think about that a lot. I'm like, okay, so when I do get all this degrees and stuff, like people, employers are going to, especially for like, those higher paying jobs and stuff are going to definitely do some background checks on you and stuff. And then when they see this, like, I highly doubt, like, based on all these barriers, especially those kind of professions that they're going to be like, yeah, let's have someone do it. And if you've had any histories of addiction, doesn’t matter if you’ve, you know...
Ryan Nielsen 23:33
It's almost like a jail sentence, in a weird way, sometimes, where it's like, you had a charge on yourself, but you can't ever get rid of it, it's like there for the rest of your life, or it's like, this person was an addict. And therefore they can't do these certain things, or they will treat them you know, differently. And like, I don't know what to do about that, really, I feel like maybe back when, like, in hindsight, I should have been, like, don't use my real name use like R-something. And, like, again, I didn't really think of a time that was like, a lot of it was in my early recovery still, and I hadn't quite been long enough for my pathways to be back to normal and stuff and just kind of excited to help out with other people. And, you know, that's kind of a weird thing. Like, we want to help these kinds of problems, or like, kind of create barriers and stuff, then doing the things like I did, where I go public on the newspaper and stuff and be like, "yeah, here's a real person, here's what they're doing." But at the same time, like the consequences for me doing that are, like, screwing me up in the long term for jobs, but it helps people immediately and helps--
Ryan Nielsen 24:40
it's like a hard spot to be in, right? It's like, okay, I want to be balanced. And also, like, have a fulfilling career and do all these things I'm really passionate about, work for, but also I want to help with something that I'm kind of really lucky to get out of. And like, you know, I think about that a few times, like the the statistics and odds are like so low for me to kind of be, like, ten year, fentanyl, heroin addiction, with like, benzos and stuff to be like four years, you know, sober and clean and be able to actually help back. And there's not very many people I know that actually ever do that, or get off Methadone and all these things, it's like, they're either still on some kind of opiate medication support.
Ryan Nielsen 25:22
So to be able to do that, it's just like, really do want to help out people in that spot and get more people like me out of the stuff. And kind of like we're talking about before, like, seeing the amount of people that I know pass away and stuff. It's like, super depressing. And like, it's... like yesterday when this guy, he just was like, crying and how happy he was that he felt [some] support and generous. And I was like, kind of mentioned treatment again. So I was like, this is like what I want to do, but the barriers are brutal.
Samantha Tsang 25:53
Do you think given enough time, not necessarily to hide your past, but it will become less obvious to employers or less in the forefront? Like, like you mentioned, like, digital footprint, Googling, all that is very advanced now. But do you think that, you know, in maybe five years time or by the time you graduate, that's kind of less obvious in your life and maybe people, maybe you'll face less barriers in that sense?
Ryan Nielsen 26:28
Possibly. I don't, I don't know to be honest. Like, I'm in the middle. Like, sometimes I do. I think that, like, we're kind of getting to the point where that might be better and like if I do enough other things, maybe, but I guess I'd have to... yeah I'd have to really figure that out, like, timewise like, what are some other things I can do to kind of unrelate it and stuff? But like I'm not sure if things will be changed by the time I graduate or like five years...
Ryan Nielsen 27:02
Hmm....Yeah, I don't know. I really don't. It's kind of, like, the recent thing about like the legalize two and a half grams or whatever for people to-- not legalize, decriminalize, and seeing all the backlash of that still, where I'm like, "okay, are we really closer? Or are we really like, kind of where we still were?" a little bit. Right? And yeah, so I don't-- I don't know. I probably leaning towards no, but I couldn't say for sure. Yeah.
Thomas Chunyungco 27:43
So... Do you feel that when you do face all these barriers, when you talk about it, to like, your employer, do you feel like your employer's very, like, supportive and tries to help you with these barriers? Or is it more so, the exact opposite?
Ryan Nielsen 28:04
I'm sorry, I had trouble hearing that? Like about... having trouble facing the barriers, like with other people, or?
Thomas Chunyungco 28:15
Yeah, with other people?
Ryan Nielsen 28:24
Um, hmm. I don't think so, no, like... maybe some people? Like I know, like, that's what I try to do with other people is I really try to find out what barriers are there to overcome. So like, they need a shelter, they want like, counseling or something that's like, they need like, those kinds of services, without being judged and stuff. We have a lot of those services at my place. I tried to bring it up to one of my, like, more my supervisor, I guess, and like, a couple times, she's like, "would you find this helpful for yourself and recovery?" So I think she does help me in some aspects. Yeah, it's hard, though. Like, I know, my boss and stuff, I wouldn't feel comfortable asking for more counseling and support. So I don't know, just maybe. I don't know, it's weird, like, I want to be able to, like, kind of show them or be, like, I have it under control.
Ryan Nielsen 29:26
Like you guys, you put me in a good position, like, I can be in this leadership role. I can do all these things. Because it's really, you know, I can do rational detachment and stuff. So like, asking for more barriers for like... for help and counseling, and stuff, I would feel more bad about, but I think I could get some help and support for like, doctors, maybe if I asked them about doctors, I actually never thought of that until right now [that] we're talking. But I probably could do that. That can help a lot. Yeah, those kinds of barriers, I think, like, just in a good spot right now to be able to work with people that can do that. Just with the counseling and stuff, I'd have to, like, kind of do on my own and stuff. I feel like kind of keep that more hidden.
Samantha Tsang 30:21
I guess looking a little bit into a hypothetical future. How do you think, or how do you... How would you say is the best way for employers to start to break down these barriers for employees like you or employees who face similar situations so that they don't have as much hardship in trying to, I guess, function and heal at the same time?
Ryan Nielsen 30:59
I think the biggest one is to like, I guess to get like, some proper education or like, knowledge about it, or kind of like, hearing about that, because I'm like, if the employer wants to help, they kind really have to understand it, and maybe even have conversation of how it benefits them in a way like " you know, you're going to have less employee turn around. So they're going to, they're not going to call in sick as much, they're going to be able to when they're at work, do a lot better of a job, productive-wise" and like, so almost kind of appealing to them in a lot of ways too, or it's like there is a lot of benefits, like, outside of this that will help you for this person and then really trying to educate them on like, like, I guess all the work it takes and stuff. I think a lot of people will think, like at least that I talked to or like, hear from is like, "it's a choice," right? So, "they're forcing themselves to do all these things" and stuff.
Ryan Nielsen 31:48
And like...Like I said, it's even a controversial thing for myself a little bit, where like, I think it is a certain amount, it's a little bit of choices. But once you get to the point where you're full blown addiction, or at least for a lot of these... These drugs and stuff, people are using it to maintain at lot of points, right? Or, they're in the cycle of a thing, right? Where they're, they're sick all the time. So when they do get enough money, they don't care if they wake up or don't wake up. So they're just trying to get one big thing and for people to understand that, or employers to understand that, and how to respond kind of appropriately, I guess, or like, really good education on empathy and compassion and patience and stuff for these... for people. Because like, they do need extra help and stuff. And I know, like for, for a lot of employers and stuff, where it's a business, like, there's profit, and I get that, but like, because with that, it's gonna take a little more time with people, right? So, you're not going to have this automatic fix and stuff, you're gonna have to really work on that.
Ryan Nielsen 32:51
And like, it's, it's hard. Like I said, I guess that's where it's about trying to convince the businesses, like, the positive benefit of it, because it's like, "alright, it's gonna cost me more time and money to have this employee, why wouldn't I just fire them and get someone else in?" Right? And then really trying to show them that aspect? But yeah, so I think it's really about just like, changing and stuff, if possible, have like, some dialogue events where people can talk. But then it is hard, because like, kinda like I was talking about the barriers and stuff, like, all the people that I know, that use and, like, go to school and work and stuff, there's no way that they would ever probably do these things, though, because of the barriers and stigma.
Ryan Nielsen 33:32
So for them, it has to be like, they really feel comfortable with doing that. And for that to happen, there has to be a huge change, employers really need to maybe talk about it openly. Be like, "Hey, guys, like, we're going to talk about what kind of services and supports you can have, if you're going through an addiction crisis, or you're going through a mental breakdown from this." Or really trying to make it seem like it's not as black and white, so it's like, singling people out. Where it's like, "okay, if I say need help, like, it's gonna be very obvious that I am the person with an addiction" versus like, maybe a mental health thing where it's like, other people can join as well. But same with addiction, where they feel a little bit more of like, [anonymity], I guess, or anonymous um, or maybe creating, like, a couple of like, support and help programs for their staff, but like, maybe doing a little bit anonymous if someone in there is having a hard time, they don't have to say what staff it is or, and they can get help back for that way.
Ryan Nielsen 34:32
And yeah, it's like a learning thing. I think like, I think of my dad and stuff, like he's very old school, and, like, to help him change his mind and stuff. It was like a lot of time and I guess, like, seminars from people like, you know, doctors or people in these higher roles that can maybe speak on it. Because I think a lot of people are not willing to hear from maybe people with addiction, but they're willing to hear people that don't have addiction and have some more knowledge, I guess on it.
Thomas Chunyungco 35:13
How do you handle the people that made those negative comments towards you saying, "oh, you're a drug addict, you should just kill yourself" or something like that? How do you respond to people like that?
Ryan Nielsen 35:29
Um, I guess it depends, like, how aggressive they are. There are some people, that like, get really upset about it, and like, are just saying like that. And for those guys, I try to ignore it and not engage, most of the time. Just like, I'm not ready for it. But sometimes if they're just a little bit better, I'll try to like, briefly mention it, you know, I'd be like, "well..." Like, it does help a little bit sometimes that maybe I look less like a typical person using now and stuff. So they'll be like, I'll be like, "oh, I actually had an experience doing that," or this and that. And they'd be like, "oh, really?" I'm like, "yeah, now I'm clean. Do you want to hear my side of like, what you're saying?" or something. And a lot of times they'll be a little more reluctant, or not reluctant, but like, willing to hear what I have to say. I'll just try to do that. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't work, but especially those people, sometimes it doesn't matter what you say. It's like, can't tell them, right? So.
Ryan Nielsen 36:39
Sometimes it throws me off, completely. Like I'll just be like not ready for it because it happens when you least expect it all the time. Right? So you're just like.... And then I'll like, it'll take me sometimes, like 5 or 10 minutes, like, in my head, I'll be sitting there and like, "that just didn't make me feel very good at all." I'll be like, "I feel like you're saying that we should just die, pretty much. Just saying I should just have died and I shouldn't have gotten sober and I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing," like. So I guess I find that hard. Sometimes it's like, you know?
Samantha Tsang 37:06
Are there situations where you felt the complete opposite and where, regardless of whether or not you disclosed your past that you still felt the same level of respect, and recognition or acknowledgement even?
Ryan Nielsen 37:24
I know, there's been a few times. I know, like, first at my job, before I got, like, the higher role and stuff when I first kind of came in there. They were super supportive of that. Like, it was like, "okay, do you still kind of use or do all these things? Like, would you want to be-- like, we really value your opinion." Actually, that's what they said. It was, like, "we're looking for people with addictions or living with addictions, and they can kind of help us. We really want to value your thoughts and opinions on it." And then same thing, where I think my first meeting there, I was just kind of like, "whoa, like, people are listening to me, people are actually like, invested in what I have to say, and like, they're not making me feel bad for my addiction, they're actually, it's reversed, they're actually making me feel really good for it. And like, that guy has something valuable to add". And that's kind of what led me to keep on doing the job and work and stuff. Because I was like, this is something I'm really passionate about.
Ryan Nielsen 38:11
And my, I'm not being treated like I have, like, this horrible disease or something where I'm treated, like, [I] actually have some kind of benefit and stuff. And like, like, that really helped me with my like, thought now, where I'm like, able to help people and stuff because of that, or I'm like, yeah, this is like, it's a blessing in disguise. Right? Where sometimes I feel hit and miss with it. But like, sometimes I'm really happy that it happened the way it did, and stuff because it like, kinda got me to grow up, I feel like, really quick in a lot of ways, right? Like, I know, a lot of people still, like, will go out drink on the weekends. And, you know, repeat it over and over again. And if I didn't go through what I did through, I would probably be one of those people still too. And I'm able to, you know, invest my money now, save, have health and all that stuff, because of what I went through. And not only that like, too like, yesterday was such a good day for me.
Ryan Nielsen 39:01
Like I felt so good when these two clients were like, like just feeling overwhelmed, like, and this guy was super dope sick, like, he was super sick off the opiates. And like, just by the way, we kind of treated him, talked to him and give him support, you know, like some clothes and he was so happy. And I was like, okay, I know from experience when you're dope sick you do not get happy about anything, like, you're just sick as hell. For him to light up like that... and like, he was interested in my story too. He's like, "okay, wow, like I-- I wouldn't have realized that you've actually been where I've been before. Can you, like, tell me more about it?" And I was like, I couldn't do all this if I didn't have that kind of... those barriers and stuff. And so it's such a good feeling. Like I said, like, I'm actually able to help and make a difference now. And when I go to certain mayor's or politicians and stuff they've made me feel really appreciated and stuff.
Ryan Nielsen 39:51
Yeah, it's actually kind of cool. Like, there are really good places in the city going around. I'm trying to think where else, I think Vancouver was not bad. White Rock's really good with the MPs and stuff. And they made me feel really good to where they're like, "don't call me that or do all these things" and yeah, makes you feel good. I think even my dad when he kind of finally turned around his thoughts and stuff, I felt really good. Because before it'd be like, “hey, Dad, I had a slip” or something, and then it'd be like, “okay, you got to get out of the house, you're kicked out. How dare you do this to me? Why would you, like, you're fucking up the family” and all these sort-- of pardon my French, but like, all these things, and when he finally kind of turned it around, it was like, hey, “it's okay. You know, like, it's okay. Like it's a learning experience, get back on the horse.” And doing all that, that was like, whoa, okay, actually I don't feel like the guilt.
Ryan Nielsen 40:39
Because like, that's, I think one thing I forgot about is like, with all this barriers, and not having the recognition and stuff, you get guilt, and like guilt is such a bad feeling. It's actually one of the biggest triggers for people relapsing and continuing in their addiction, is guilt. And when you're not getting that, or people treating you differently, you feel like I said, like, you did something really bad and wrong. And I'm not sure, if anyone's ever felt guilty and stuff, it's not a good feeling. You really want to shut that down. And with drugs and stuff, that's a really good way to do it or not good way, no, not good way to do it. But for like, the immediate time. That's why they do it, because it works like that. So like kind of getting rid of that guilt is how we break down barriers and how we... or the shame, shame and guilt. How do we reduce that and stuff?
Ryan Nielsen 41:22
Well, that would be like, by people being [open] and having these experiences like I do at work where they treat you like another human being and stuff. It's almost like what we do for like a lot of our race and stuff, right? Treat everybody equally. It's the same thing for addictions and stuff. But at the end of the day, you know, they are people they're human beings or they have family, they have friends, they have thoughts, they have things just like everybody else. And when you talk to them, especially like with addiction, you realize, like, you have also get them to open up and stuff. You go, "wow, this person's a human, they're doing their thing." Right?
Thomas Chunyungco 41:52
You talk about how... your Dad wasn't very supportive about you before. Why do you think he acted the way that he did?
Ryan Nielsen 42:04
So like his, his dad and stuff that he grew up in that kind of thing, where you like, it was weird, like, alcohol was okay. But like anything, drugs and stuff, were, they just kind of believed that they were like, they were, addicts and like it was all by choice and stuff. So it's very, like hardwired for him. So I said, he was like, he was really bad with it. And he really couldn't understand it based on his grandpa, or my grandpa, his dad, it was just like, it was just hardwired to me as a kid too. It was just like, "you can do it yourself. You work your ass off. But you always show up to work. You always do this, you never let anyone ... or you never become a problem to anyone else. You never talk about your emotions. You always do this...You never talk about your emotions. You always do this." And that's just kind of what was just what he did. And same thing with addiction.
Ryan Nielsen 42:46
It was always a choice. It was like, “You're doing this on purpose. You're doing this and this. There's no reason, this and that.” And, like what made him realise it. He was like, I think he was watching something. And he just finished giving me shit. But he was super drunk. So he was wasted. And he was like, slurring his words. I mean, and then he was like watching something about hypocrites or something. And then he was like, "wait a sec, like, I'm wasted on a legal substance. But I'm still like, wasted on it. My son's on a different substance. But I'm trying to tell him not to do it, but I'm doing something different." And so he was able to, like really do a switch with that. And it took a lot of time too, right? Just had to really relearn it. It took like, I think a year of, like, a lot of these recovery places, they did family meetings, so they had family seminars, and really able to educate them by bringing in like doctors and stuff or... I know, that was a thing for my dad, when I was trying to get on like Methadone and stuff.
Ryan Nielsen 43:39
He's like, "so you're on illegal heroin, like you're just gonna be high all the time, every day." And I'd be like, "no," like, I just feel like trying to feel normal and this and that. And I had to get the doctor, kind of write it out for him and be like, "yep, here's his brain," like this and that, and just a flat line. Like, it doesn't go up. It doesn't go down. It doesn't contain this. And that was really helpful, I think, right? Like, my dad's family is still kind of like that, all the time. Like his brother and stuff. They, they would not understand it for the life of them. And they do say that a lot. Right? Like, I know, when I visit them. I don't bring it up and stuff. And they'll mention it. They'll be like, "yeah, can you believe like all the crackheads here or the junkies? Like they're fucking doing this or taking up space," and this and I'll just not say anything.
Samantha Tsang 44:24
Any closing remarks? Any final comments?
Ryan Nielsen 44:30
Oh, um I don't know. I guess like, yeah, I just want to comment it's just like, it's really, I think we could have way more productive, like productive workers, productive conversations and stuff, if people were willing to see from a different perspective and other eyes and stuff. And really, maybe trying to come up with programs and stuff for work and stuff. Like I said, they can kind of really help and support people that are going through addictions and stuff, and really make them feel like everyone's treated equally and stuff. So I think that's how you get a more productive workforce and stuff, is when everyone feels like they can work together and that they don't have to hide things. And I guess hiding things makes it worse, not getting barriers and stuff at work, it just makes people and addiction worse, I guess.
Ryan Nielsen 45:09
You know, for example, like Peace Arch hospital, right? They opened up brand new emergency building and a mental health side to it. So mental health emergency, but they never opened it up. And it's on the news, right? It's been like four months, and but we're always talking about how, you know, we have more addiction, like we've, it's always on the news. It's like, you know, the statistics, we're losing tons of people still, we still have a huge mental [...] or mental crisis problem. But the emergency ward that isn't even open, right? For 4 months, and kind of goes back to like, I guess not having staff and all that, but like, that's a huge thing.
Ryan Nielsen 45:45
Because then it's like, you know, recently someone from work had to go to the hospital and the same thing or like, you know, they hate going to the hospital, like they hate it, because the staff will say low comments, right? Like, "you're taking up space here," like "your, your illnesses aren't real," or "you're choosing to do this," or like, they just have, I guess the hospital is like one of the worst areas I think for, for that stuff. And that's hard, because that's where people need to be sometimes, right? And if they're not getting treated and respected at a place where they're supposed to feel the safest then how are we supposed to allow these people to become productive and back in society or live a nice, happy life as a human being, right? So like, I think we're all humans. We should all kind of help each other out, work through it and, yeah.
Caitlin Burritt 46:30
That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast, to listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com. And if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com Thank you for listening.