
Unsilencing Stories
Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller communities in B.C. and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal opioid overdose. The project was facilitated by Aaron Goodman, Ph.D., faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, B.C., and student researchers, Jenna Keeble and Ashley Pocrnich.
In this phase, we’re sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of B.C. The B.C. Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as “support services and strategies” that aim to keep people safe and minimize death, disease, and injury from high risk behaviour.”
Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers, including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in B.C. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face, including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing, and stressors at work.
We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face
The podcast is part of a research study led by Aaron Goodman and conducted under the auspices of the Chancellor’s Chair Award. Several researchers, including Caitlin Burritt, Chloe Burritt, and Giorgia Ricciardi, and a number of student research assistants played key roles in the study, and you’ll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Unsilencing Stories
Ryan Nielsen: Episode 4: Death & Trauma (Continued)
In this interview, you'll hear Ryan Nielson talk to Samantha Tsang about experiencing death and trauma as a result of the opioid crisis. Ryan shares a personal story about the passing of his best friend and the psychological and emotional effects that loss had on him. Ryan also discusses experiencing the loss of several people he underwent treatment with, the consistent exposure to death through his peer work, and the challenge of providing support while also taking care of his mental health.
Glossary:
CAT: Community Action Team
CBT: Cognitive Behavioural Therapy
Chinatown (Vancouver, BC): A neighbourhood near Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside, known for having a large unhoused population, many of whom are affected by substance use disorder.
CPI Training: Crisis Prevention and de-escalation training, through the Crisis Prevention Institute.
DBT: Dialectical Behavior Therapy.
Hoot: a single inhalation of a drug.
OPS: Overdose Prevention Site
Options: Options Community Services, an non-profit organization which provides social services primarily in Surrey, Delta, White Rock and Langley.
Purdue Pharma: A private American pharmaceutical company which manufactured pain medicines, most famously OxyContin, which the company claimed had very limited potential for addiction or abuse. Purdue is considered a major contributor to America's opioid crisis because of the company’s misleading marketing of OxyContin.
Oxycontin: A highly addictive opioid pain relief drug created by Purdue Pharma.
RCMP: Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Sources Program: part of the Sources Community Resource Centres, a community-based, non-profit society that offers a variety of social wellness programmes in White Rock, Surrey and other communities in BC.
This episode was recorded on January 23, 2023
Caitlin Burritt 00:00
Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC.
Caitlin Burritt 00:27
The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.
Caitlin Burritt 01:06
Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Caitlin Burritt 01:40
In this interview, you'll hear Ryan Nielson talk to Samantha Tsang about experiencing death and trauma as a result of the opioid crisis. Ryan shares a personal story about the passing of his best friend and the psychological and emotional effects that loss had on him. Ryan also discusses experiencing the loss of several people he underwent treatment with, the consistent exposure to death through his peer work, and the challenge of providing support while also taking care of his mental health.
Samantha Tsang 02:05
Okay, so for today, I believe the topic is surrounding trauma and deaths. I guess, starter question is, you've mentioned before that you've lost a best friend to this. Maybe we'll start with that? Could you tell us a little bit more about that experience? And maybe a little bit of his story as well?
Ryan Nielsen 02:25
Yeah. So I guess the big one is kind of, like, it's the first loss I had that's like, immediate friend or something. So he was, like, his dad was a cop and stuff. So he's more, like, very clean cut kid, him and I got along with, like, kind of hanging out, just talking about life, going for walks, doing skiing. So we were, like, very physically outdoors, kind of people. We were best friends for a while. And then I wasn't quite, like, using at the time, but I remember from him. He kinda, like, was hiding it at first and it'd just be like little symbols or signs. You're like, "Okay, I wonder if like, something's wrong with him, or he's sick or something?" But just like, or alcohol, like, a lot of times, I would blame it, just like, "oh, maybe he was drinking?" or doing those things. I know, like before, kind of getting close to his past, he was kind of mentioning to me that he was, got into like, harder drugs and kind of opened up to me. And I was being really supportive with him.
Ryan Nielsen 03:27
I think he was. During that time, it was like, I guess hard for him too, and like, I think he was masking a lot at the time too, just kind of show his pain. And this is like, I think back in 2012. So like, when people weren't as familiar with opioid crisis and I think fentanyl was just kind of coming out. And I remember having a really good time with him the night before he died, just kind of talking about his treatment happening in two weeks, and kind of being a good supportive friend. And then, like, kind of same thing, where like, he just stopped answering my texts after that night, and I was like, "That's really weird. Why is he like, ignoring me?" So like, relying, and I almost got like, actually mad. I remember trying to text his phone being like, "man, like, what's your problem? You said, you're going to treatment. You just like think about yourself." And I said some pretty hurtful words, actually in these texts
Ryan Nielsen 04:19
And wasn't until later on that I think we got a call from his dad saying that, like, yeah, "he passed away," I guess like a week ago. It was about a week without no communications. And like that kind of like hit me really hard. Like part of it, too, was just, like, he overdosed on fentanyl or opioids and was first coming out. And I was drinking with him that night of and, like, I felt quite a lot of guilt too. But it was also just like, really surreal to kind of process that, like, he died. I think for a while I was like, not truly accepting it. I was like, "Oh, he's still alive. He's doing his thing." And then when it kind of first started hitting me and stuff, like, the pain was like, so sharp and stuff, and it's kind of like, and like I said, at the time, too. I was like, I didn't have any family and stuff. Like I was kind of disowned, actually, at the time. So it wasn't talking to anyone besides, like, my girlfriend at the time
Ryan Nielsen 05:10
and I know, she was pretty upset, because I guess there's a lot of people saying that, like, I had a lot of role to do with it, with him drinking alcohol that night and stuff. And so people just, I guess, with rumors and stuff, especially down like in high school level, or they're like, "oh, yeah, he did it, he sold it to him." And so that was really hard. And then with her leaving, it was like, just kind of having to sit with that, with like, even if people like weren't saying it's true or not at the time, you're like, very, at least I was very sensitive to what people were saying and stuff. And so I really, like it's really hard to describe like, I don't, I think out of like, all the times I've ever been like depressed or sad that was gonna be like the worst I've ever been at. Because I remember it was just, like, just so brutal, like physical pain, emotional pain, but like, like, how do you describe that? It's like, I don't know, like being like, thrown into like, a pile of glass or something where like, every part of your skin is being sliced open.
Ryan Nielsen 06:02
And I think, like, all I wanted to do was sleep at the time. So it was like, "What can I do to sleep?" Because like, I knew if I drink a bunch of alcohol, got really drunk and stuff, I would be more emotional, I'd be like, like, it wouldn't go away. And I know, even at the time, that's actually when I started to experiment more with drugs myself and trying like, you know, uppers or coke and stuff. And like, same thing as like, I felt like that made me think more. So it just made me think more and more of the issue. And I was like this is not fun. And kind of going through my old medicine cabinet and finding, like, some old pain painkillers and like, the reason I liked those ones was because, like, I would sleep. Like, I wasn't even really getting that. I wouldn't say I was getting any high off them, actually. It was just like, the one thing I noticed about it was the sedation effect. So I was like, these make me sleep. When I'm asleep, I'm not aware. I'm not actually around. And so, like, I did that for a while.
Ryan Nielsen 06:57
And like, it's interesting too, like, kinda learning my own experience at work and stuff, but just like, when people are using substances like that, during like a grieving process and stuff, they actually never, like, work through it. So like, when I did get, like, sober off of all the drugs and stuff, I actually had to like, relive it, like a second, third time, because it was like, it was still fresh. It was like I never actually processed that. And going through that process was also really hard. It was like, took me a long time, like, with a lot of counselors, talking to them every day. And yeah, it's just like, it's like your whole world is upside down. It's really weird. Like things are darker, gloomier. And finally, getting to the point of like, just being angry at everything.
Ryan Nielsen 07:48
And then going from anger to sadness, just being back depressed, and kind of doing that a few times, to the point where I finally, like, accepted it. And I was like, alright, like, "he's gone" and stuff. And it was still like, very touchy subject for me for a while, like, it was like, I don't know, or when I would hear other people talk about them losing someone close, it was kind of like, I don't know, it's really weird. Like it just disassociated myself or something. So it was like, "Oh, they lost someone." But like, I just think about the person I lost for like two seconds, and then just kind of like, forget it ever happened, almost just trying to bury it. And this is kind of like, post being sober and stuff. So I was still sober. But I was still, like, kind of burying it for a while. And then yeah, kind of got to the point where like, finally accepted a little bit more, but then that's kind of where, like, I started losing more people.
Ryan Nielsen 08:36
And then what's kind of, like, the process of that? And like, that was like something weird to, I guess like, one of these treatment center[s] and stuff is like, you become really close to these people. Because you're like, you're with them every day, right? For three months, two months, or whatever. And you see them every day, you don't have phones and stuff. So there's not really distractions, that's kind of your coping mechanism. And, like just seeing, like the sheer volume of people that actually pass away after that is a, it's pretty, like, shocking, like, you don't think that's going to happen, because you're like, "Oh, we're all in this together. We're all, like, getting sober. We're all building plans together" and all these things, and then you come out and then you're like, "Oh, yeah, like that person. He passed away." Like, "What? Really? How?" Like, "Oh, he had one relapse with, like, some coke. And it was laced with fentanyl and he's passed away now."
Ryan Nielsen 09:25
It's like, "Oh, he had like a, like a two year old son. He had all these things." Like, I'm like, that's really hard. Because it's like, you know this person really well, first of all, you know they have like, a kid and a wife and stuff. Now they're left gone. And then like, it kind of hurts at first. But then, like, it got to the point where, you know, after like, the fifth or sixth person, you're like, "wow, like, this is part of life," I guess. Right? So you kind of learn how to deal with it. And yeah, like, it still bothers me quite a lot. But like I said, it's kind of like, more, more desensitized in a way or like, just becoming so used to it. But like, wow, it's kind of hard. Even this.
Ryan Nielsen 10:07
This, like, last week, like, it was like two suicide [attempts] in a week and like, I think now I'm noticing, like, it's, it's hard because, like, I haven't figured this out, but I need to have boundaries for myself and people. It's like, suicide's really important to help them out and be there. Well, that same sense. It's like, taking out my own mental health around like, I don't know, I'm finding this like a little bit too much sometimes, like working with, like death so frequently, sometimes. Yeah. So I don't know how to do that, either. Because it's like, you don't want the person to pass away, at the same time. You want to be supportive. But yeah.
Samantha Tsang 10:43
Yeah, for sure. Then drawing that line is always tricky, because especially in your case, I feel because there's a bit of leftover guilt, or potential guilt being blamed and everything like that. You don't necessarily want to be the cause of another person.
Ryan Nielsen 11:06
Yeah.
Samantha Tsang 11:06
But like you said, mental health is, comes first and foremost. Right? And so it's a hard line to draw for sure.
Ryan Nielsen 11:08
It is.
Samantha Tsang 10:43
How do you feel your friend’s passing affects your work and the things that you do now? And how does that kind of help you out?
Ryan Nielsen 11:17
So well, it helps me a lot. And like I said, where you kind of become more used to it and stuff. So um, what we kind of call it at work is like, rational detachment. So where, you have things going on at home, but you kind of don't let them interfere with other people's stuff. Particularly like the people that I work with are, they're more sensitive a lot of the time too, right? And so it's really important to be able to be there for them in the way that you can be supportive. And there's a lot of things to remember, right? Like, safe stance, like, when you talk to them and all these things and when they're talking up these hard issues, like, stuff that you can relate to it's, you're able got to kind of process them more.
Ryan Nielsen 11:56
And like I know, actually, just recently, I've been getting a lot of good feedback on that. Because like, you go to a counselor, and they're telling you all these things, but it's like, have you been in the situation before? No, I haven't, but here's all what the textbooks say and stuff. And so that really enables me to be really beneficial for people where I was like, "Yeah, I've lost a few people. And here's kind of what I did to cope with it" or, like, just be empathy, like, "you know what? like, it is hard. Yeah. Like, I can't imagine what you're going through on the pain, right? It's like, based on, like, when I had someone lose, this is what was like, for me." And like, all this, kind of what I find right now, and kind of make them have more hope and stuff, right? Like, I know, death can make other people want to kill themselves, too, I find, actually a lot of the time.
Ryan Nielsen 12:40
Like, I've seen that a lot of work too, where like, people will go back into an addiction or drug addiction, or just get suicidal over the best friend passing away. Some people deal with a lot harder than even I dealt with it. And so you have to be able to, I don't know, just have the rational [de]attachment when you talk to talk to them. And that's what it's kind of given me, it's like, a blessing in a way, like, blessing and also negative. But yeah, it's just like, it's really awesome to be able to help people and be there with them in their pain and know what they're going through a little bit.
Samantha Tsang 13:13
For sure. And I think last time or one of our previous meetings, we've mentioned before, a few of the strategies that you guys employ at work to help manage tough situations like this. Could we go over a few of those again? Could you kind of make --
Ryan Nielsen 13:29
yeah --
Samantha Tsang 13:29
a little bit of detail of how you guys work through harder situations?
Ryan Nielsen 13:35
Yeah, so I guess, like, the big one is, oh, my gosh, I got this. I actually have a book like at home, just got it. But it's like, compassion, care, welfare and security. So a big one is like making the person feel safe, and like they're secure. So how you do that is like, you have to, sometimes you just got to ask the person like, what they're comfortable with, right? Sometimes they need to be taken into a different room, maybe they go outside, because they feel like confined in it. Some people find, like, the hospital setting, which I work in a lot is, like, they have bad, like, impressions from it. So we have to go somewhere else, like, go for a walk or go outside. And it's really about like, really having a lot of compassion and patience and empathy for the person. It's about listening to what they're going through, if they're upset. Um, So like, if their [passionate] patients, to listen to them, if they're going like, they're crying or going through a thing, it's just not like, interfering with that.
Ryan Nielsen 14:30
So it's not stopping them. Sorry. And then like, yeah, kind of being there for them compassionate, like if they're crying, let them let them cry. Like I said, maybe like a minute or two, I'll ask them if it's okay, if I can place my hand on them, if that helps. If not, just letting them cry, giving some time, but also checking on them. So like, you know, after a minute or two of crying, it's about like, if they're going to run off to the bathroom, which happens a couple of times, right? It's about like having someone, if it's a girl, having a girl staff member, or guy, a guy staff member to come in there the bathroom and just kind of like, being for them, saying, like, I'm here, if you want to talk to anything, and it's, uh, yeah, just making them feel safe. Empathy. And then that's, I guess, some resources, like we're trying to push a lot more for substance use counseling. So that kind of creates like CBT, cognitive behavior therapy, DBT, dialectical behavior therapy, and mindfulness and meditation.
Ryan Nielsen 15:25
So like, trying to push for the more of that, from my experience has been really beneficial for people [to] work through a lot more things or overcome difficult things. I know, like, like, I'm on my third or fourth week of doing trauma counseling for everybody. So that's including people, like, the unhoused people or people struggling, they all kind of come together. And we can all learn together about how to deal with specific traumas and stuff. Like that is another one, that's kind of silly, but like, you think of a number between like one and ten. So like three or six, and then you you do like, with your feet, like your left foot, you go 1,2,3, and then or, no, one, two, and then the third one, you do your right foot, back to four, five, on your left foot, number six on your right foot, you do that. And then on your fourth one, you go up or down. So it could be like four and seven.
Ryan Nielsen 16:14
So like that gets people really distracted and focused on, like, doing the right patterns and stuff. And that's a really good way for people to if it's too much for them to kind of get distracted into a different task and something that's fun, and always seem to laugh over stuff, which is awesome. I know I did that actually, like, last week when I saw everybody, it was cool. People were always, the one guy, he like, had someone he just lost a few days ago and he's very upset and very emotional. And so it's awesome that he finds this place now where he can come and feel safe and that's really new for this person. And just like, doing that little exercise and like, next thing you know, everybody's laughing and having a good time and they're more willing to feel safe and like they can talk to someone about it and um, yes, like even stances and stuff like, how you stand in front of someone, like, if you're directly on them that can actually be kind of threatening, and a little bit sometimes.
Ryan Nielsen 17:03
So it's about like doing a stance on the side. So they feel like they can come through you anytime, doing all those things. So yeah, those kinds of techniques, really listening and having empathy. So that's a big thing is like, if you can kind of reciprocate with some part of what they're saying, so, and they're like, "oh, this person is listening to me" and feeling heard, and really having some experience to relate them. So like, well, like, "yeah, he can relate to me." And like, I know, those are the things I do. And like, I find, like, I can't say that it's like one person, I don't help that isn't like, yeah, "this person is really good. Ryan's able to like, I feel like I can come to him and tell him whatever it is," and stuff. And that's really about I said, like, having the respect, the dignity of everybody. So you're not treating anybody differently based on race or gender or anything. So that's one thing I find that's really helpful is, like, really looking at everybody like a human being, regardless of how they look.
Ryan Nielsen 17:53
Everybody has different needs and personalities. So it's really about putting yourself into the shoes and responding the way, like, I don't know, how, like, how to really explain that. But it's like, responding to a way, particularly per person you're dealing with, right? So one person might want to be talking to you a little bit differently when you talk to them and versus someone else, right? One person might want, like, just [to] be pointed in the right direction, one person might want to listen, one person might want you to relate to them on something. So I find those things work really well.
Samantha Tsang 18:20
For sure. I think at the end of the day, it's really just listening to people and their, their root problems and not making any sort of assumptions or categorizing anything of that sort. I guess shifting gears a little bit into the trauma aspect of this in your line of work. Like we mentioned before, lots of traumas from various, any sort of background, really. What would you say is a common traumatic experience that people have had, and how do those manifest in certain behaviors and things that you and your staff look out for? And whether or not they end up turning into, say complex trauma responses?
Ryan Nielsen 19:03
Yeah, um... good question --
Samantha Tsang 19:05
We can break it down.
Ryan Nielsen 19:06
Yeah, no, it's good question. Um, yeah, so I think some of the bigger ones are, trying to think, is like a lot of like, child abuse. So like, physical abuse, sexual abuse, I'll start with those ones, maybe and then go on. But so like, you see it a lot. Like, for example, like girls that are, might be more, had been, like, raped or something out in the being homeless, or on the street, or. So they are way more like, I guess, like, based on their experiences, which makes sense, right? Like, they're more skeptical of guys, maybe right, or whatever gender has done that. So that's really about, okay, well, if that's the case, and maybe not filling them with a bunch of guys to do the talking and speaking, right? So basing on their needs, and kind of showing them that, like, slowly introducing them to someone that you feel comfortable with, really taking your time and patience with them. So they can kind of start to see that not every guy is like like that. But that's, it takes a lot of time and patience, like, it's not gonna happen overnight. It's not gonna happen probably over half a year, probably going to take a couple of years, a year or two.
Ryan Nielsen 20:04
And that's really about that taking time. And yeah, those ones are hard. Like, like, personally, I don't do them as much because of, like, I do, do them sometimes if it's a guy and stuff and like, for those situations, same thing, um. So it's kind of like... trying to tell them, not try to tell them, sorry. Sorry, it's like, really hard. I'm trying to figure out how to, like, word this? Um.
Samantha Tsang 20:29
Would you say, kind of not necessarily advising, but kind of providing suggestions on certain things might be helpful for them? Or?
Ryan Nielsen 20:41
Yeah. Yeah, providing suggestions. Kind of when possible. And just like really, like I would say, I get try to get more of, like, actual counselors do these kinds of things, like the have more like degrees and stuff, and they tell me some of the stuff right, so like, I guess some of the stuff I do from my work is trying to get to the point where they go see these people, counselors and stuff, so they can do more deep rooted stuff. Kind of being there with them. I don't, haven't really had anyone, like, completely open up and go through a whole story with it. They might, they probably mentioned it to me or something like "hey, this is what's happening to me." It's kind of... Like, I'm more sensitive to this situation or more sensitive going to these places. So it's really working around that, like, kind of accommodating what their needs are and stuff based on the time, trying to be the example, kind of talk to, talk through it with them
Ryan Nielsen 21:33
and like yeah, so whatever they want to share, if they want to share a little bit, it's really about just like, making it comfortable for them and being like "Oh, thanks. Thank you for sharing and like feel like you can confide in me and trust in me" and that aspect. Like the violent traumas and stuff when people are like, are like, beaten to death and all that stuff too. That's like, I do notice sometimes, with particular, older people that we haven't had time to catch before it turned into a complex trauma and stuff they get. They have vague outbursts sometimes, actually. So, and that's kind of hard to deal with. Or they'll start yelling at a random car or just freak out. And like, that's, I'm still kind of learning about those ones and stuff. I guess it's really about like, crisis intervention. So it's like, how do we get people not to get to that level? There's a bunch of techniques, I guess, really, it's about like, making them feel safe, cared for. So like I was saying.
Ryan Nielsen 22:37
Sorry, it's like, four different parts for, like, someone gets to like, that point where they're in the trauma breakdown and stuff. So like, the first one is generally anxiety, like, they can happen at different levels. But like, generally, it's anxiety. And then when they're anxious, like you notice signs like fidgeting, or increased breathing, or like, a little bit of sweating, maybe they're talking faster, or like kind of like getting a little more, kind of, I don't know, just anxious. So you want to be supportive in that time. So you're really being empathized and stuff for them? The next one's kind of, like, defensive. And that's when they get more like, “How dare you do this to me?” or this and that. And that's, you want to give them a clear direction, when they're getting defensive. So like, “Oh, hey, let's try this” or, like, “I understand that's going on.”
Ryan Nielsen 23:25
Or like, “yeah, that's fair to be, like, that upset” or understanding? "Let's talk about it." And "do you mind like doing this for me?” again, really directive with that. The third one is obviously the bad one. That's, like, risk management. And that's when you want to call help and stuff. But we want to avoid getting to that point. And then the whole goal is to get to something called tension reduction. And then that's where they're more relaxed, calm down and stuff. So that's kind of the techniques that we use to prevent them from getting to, like, a hard point, I guess, in the trauma thing.
Samantha Tsang 24:01
You guys have a lot of very good strategies for all the staffs and everybody that helps to de-escalate very intense situations. But I guess, objectively speaking, how do you feel these types of situations mentally affect the staff, despite having all these really good protocols and procedures to help them work through it?
Ryan Nielsen 24:24
It can affect them a lot. Like, I've noticed that a few times, like, some people will get too invested into it, like, they don't know how to take it home. Or I mean, not to take it home. So for them, they're constantly worried or freaking out about someone off work hours, which is not good for mental health, in my opinion. It's like, okay, now, like, your own alone time to kind of recuperate and stuff you're too, you know, worried about someone else. And there's only so much you can do at the end of the day, I find like, another staff, like it really, like, they'll take days off and stuff, right? Like our work is really good with that. Generally, I think it might be a little harder for me just because I'm in, like, the like, manager position. So like, [if] people don't call in, I usually have to come in and cover their shifts and stuff. But the policy is like, really focused on mental health.
Ryan Nielsen 25:11
So like, if you are feeling like you had a bad day, or there's stuff going on at home, even to just not come into work today. And like, that's really rare. I think for most jobs I've worked in, that you can't really just be like, “Oh, I'm having a mental health day,” like, that doesn't really fly with a lot of places. So we try to do that and stuff. Instead of having them desensitized, and all that, but end of the day, like, and some people are, like, kind of, like, used to it and like, it's just their environment, but it's like, it has to take a toll on them. Right? It's just like, the opposite of all this stuff is, like, peace, you know? Harmony, happy. So when you're around death, trauma all the time, you know, and these people are, have a lot going on. And they, you're trying to get to the point where they can confide in, trust in you, and you can do all these things. So it's, it's hard not to do it. I know even for myself, I do it. Right? Like, like yesterday when the staff member....And same kind of thing where it's like, too much for her. And so I had to kind of help her out and be supportive in that aspect. Yeah.
Samantha Tsang 26:16
Is there anything that I haven't asked that you kind of want to add in as well?
Ryan Nielsen 26:24
Death is, like, affects a lot of people. I guess that's the last thing I'll say is, like, the I've noticed that too, where like, it affects more than just me, someone dying, right? Like, it affects people around them, affects their family members, affects siblings and like, and like the reality is like, especially with the stuff we're talking about. The whole research thing, is like we're losing I think, like, seven or 6.5 to seven people a day in BC alone, right? And it's like, every time just one of those people die, it affects like 10 people, sometimes not, five or 10 people. And like that's just kind of I feel, like, becoming, like, a new norm for us, and like, it's not just me, I don't think because, 'cause like, you think about it, seven different people a day... That's gonna affect a lot of a lot of people, right? And I think some people are, I guess, like, shameful to actually talk about it?
Ryan Nielsen 27:09
Like, I know I see that a lot where they don't want to talk about the kid, like, "okay, my kid is actually this" or vice versa, "my mom's this," and so it's weird. A lot of people I don't think bring it up or talk about it and are going through it and stuff. I don't think, sometimes we like, look for these, like common signs like, "okay, they're having, like, crying" and all that stuff. But some people don't deal with it that way, they kind of just bottle it up and move on with life and stuff. And I guess like, those people also are going through stuff and need kind of healing from that. And I think that's kind of more of a other point I wanted to say was just like, how long it takes to heal from trauma or death. It takes a lot of time. And I really would love for a way to kind of, like, prevent that and stuff. Get more, like, prevention, treatment centers, and those things to kind of, like, lessen our overdose deaths and stuff. So people can maybe have less of that in their life, move forward in a positive way, I guess.
Samantha Tsang 27:59
For sure. And circling back to what you mentioned, in regards to the statistics of it before anybody who may not necessarily be working with a counselor or with any sort of support groups, do you feel that it's easily accessible? For them to find a support group or professional help or anything of that sort, given everything that's available? Or maybe even just their personal life, regardless of their background?
Ryan Nielsen 28:26
No, actually, I don't think so. Because I know the counseling services we have are specifically for substance use counseling, and we only have so many, I think it was like 10 weeks is max. There's a couple people that can get longer things and stuff. But for the general case, it's 10 weeks and like, like, I was saying before is like, there's a lot of people that aren't, they can't access that, they don't use substances, right? So it's like, "Okay, what if I don't drink all the time, and I don't do drugs, but like, I just got affected by this, right? And I don't want to go down that road." So like, what kind of services and supports are available for them? Well, it's bad enough, I think they can get on some group therapy from the doctor. But that's like an eight month waiting list next month.
Ryan Nielsen 29:00
So otherwise, you're paying like $100 or something or up there, towards, to see, someone once, like, I think with inflation and the cost of living and stuff that's really kind of impossible to ask people to have come up with an extra $100, $200 to see someone twice, right? Once or twice a week, or month. Sorry. So I think that'd be awesome if there's more supports available for people that work through, especially like, maybe for youth, I think, because that's the big one is like, kind of like, I agree with what you said earlier is like how do you, like, do it before becomes, like, a complex trauma and stuff? And I think a lot of times that would be more youth counselors and stuff. And I don't think that a lot of people know all the resources available.
Ryan Nielsen 29:34
I know for myself, I was one of them. Like I never knew where to go or who to talk to and stuff. And so that's one thing I'm trying to do at work is like have someone, system navigator to kind of help people or point people where to go to get these kinds of services and help because I, like, I know when I talk to people at work, or people I help with, they have a lot of time no idea that there are even counseling services for them or things that they can go do for death or like groups, right?
Ryan Nielsen 29:58
There's always groups we have if you lost someone, regardless if it's with an overdose, and then we have ones related to drug overdoses and stuff, and like, I barely even heard about them. Right? It's only because I'm, like, working at a place that does that. And even then, like, I just kind of heard about it. So yeah, it'd be really good to get that more out there. I think.
Samantha Tsang 30:18
Is there any particular reason why drug related counselling is only 10 weeks?
Ryan Nielsen 30:25
The amount of people. So we have too many people wanting to use it, and only so many counselors, right? So there's only, like, I think, four or five counselors there. And I think part of it, too, is like it's a nonprofit organization. So there's only, like, so much money they bring in, um, in a year. And there's so many different programs to do, right? They do elderly, youth, rent supplements, all these different things. So it's like, where does all that money go to? And how much do you put to substance use counseling? And, you know, this is, I think, a pretty big problem. So we always have people wanting to get help, but there's always no spots available. So it's like you have to have the person kind of come off in 10 weeks, so someone else can use it that needs it really bad.
Samantha Tsang 31:03
That's concerning, in my eyes. 'Cause --
Ryan Nielsen 31:06
It is, yeah.
Samantha Tsang 31:07
10 weeks is usually a pretty critical point when it comes to counseling. That's when you get your breakthrough with with your counselor with the person who's being counseled. And then you drop them, and suddenly they're lost, or they have to start all over --
Ryan Nielsen 31:20
yeah --
Samantha Tsang 31:20
Yikes.
Ryan Nielsen 31:21
I’m one of those people. Yeah, so I was like, yeah, same thing. Where like, it takes me a little while to even warm up to someone and be like, "yeah, here's like, what went through my life" and then 10 weeks they're like, "yeah, like, this is, like, your last one." You're like "what? Like, you can't do more?" And it's like "no," right? So but yeah, exactly. It's like, and then I'd have like, a relapse after or something. Right? Something would happen.
Samantha Tsang 31:41
Are those counselors? Did they go through the traditional pathway of being a therapist and then finding a niche? Do you know or are they somebody, like, in your position where they do a, um, I guess like "non-certified counseling," and big quotation marks, and then get placed into a position where they're helping people in the way that they are?
Ryan Nielsen 32:04
So they are generally people that go to school and stuff that had like no prior engagement. I know like, there's a couple of them that I use, like two, that just generally really wanted to do it, they had someone affected in their life. But I think a couple other ones are, like, just how it happened, how it turned out,
Samantha Tsang 32:19
I feel like maybe they should make a program for counselors in your position with, you know, personal experience, and then professional experience to kind of shortcut your way through getting certified. And they'll definitely boost the numbers of people that can help and will be helped. So. I don't know.
Ryan Nielsen 32:34
I totally agree. Yeah, like, the only problem is finding people. So I'm always trying to find people like me, like, but it's really hard. Like I said, I find even people that are in the similar experience, but they're still using or they say they're not using, and like, that's the reality of it is like, it's like, the sense is like, [for] a lot for a lot of people it's a lifetime battle and stuff. And then it's like, okay, well, and then they're not quite all there, or not able to be there in the best to help people. So it's really hard to find someone who's like, "Oh, you've been through this experience, and like, you got out of the drug culture, and now you're actually gonna go work in it." Like, a lot of people don't want to do that. It's, like, too tempting of relapsing. But I'm always trying to find people like that, and definitely hire them.
Samantha Tsang 33:14
I mean, it's hard too because in the professional world, it's hard to get recognized for your work if you're not holding a piece of paper with it as well. So even though you're doing really great work in the traditional sense, you may not be considered an actual counselor, because you don't necessarily have a certification. And that makes things really tricky when you're trying to help more people. I think, if you were to leave this organization, it might be hard to find something similar in that position, would you say?
Ryan Nielsen 33:42
Yeah, I think so.
Samantha Tsang 33:45
Circular issues.
Ryan Nielsen 33:46
Yes!
Caitlin Burritt 33:48
That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast, to listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com. And if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com Thank you for listening.