Unsilencing Stories

Ryan Nielsen: Episode 2: Housing Crisis

Unsilencing Stories Season 2 Episode 21

In this episode, you'll hear Ryan Nielson talk to Samantha Tsang about how essential it is to have stable housing and how maintaining his housing allowed him to have a safe space throughout his substance use. Ryan discusses his experience of being kicked out of his home when he was 18, the stress that comes with moving or losing housing due to rent increases, as well as the stress that he experienced while regularly working 10 to 12 hour shifts to pay for his substance use. 

Glossary:

CAT: Community Action Team
CBT: Cognitive Behavioural Therapy
Chinatown (Vancouver, BC): A neighbourhood near Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside, known for having a large unhoused population, many of whom are affected by substance use disorder.
CPI Training: Crisis Prevention and de-escalation training, through the Crisis Prevention Institute.
DBT: Dialectical Behavior Therapy.
Hoot: a single inhalation of a drug.
OPS: Overdose Prevention Site
Options: Options Community Services, an non-profit organization which provides social services primarily in Surrey, Delta, White Rock and Langley. 
Purdue Pharma: A private American pharmaceutical company which manufactured pain medicines, most famously OxyContin, which the company claimed had very limited potential for addiction or abuse. Purdue is considered a major contributor to America's opioid crisis because of the company’s misleading marketing of OxyContin.
Oxycontin: A highly addictive opioid pain relief drug created by Purdue Pharma.
RCMP: Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Sources Program: part of the Sources Community Resource Centres, a community-based, non-profit society that offers a variety of social wellness programmes in White Rock, Surrey and other communities in BC.

This episode was recorded on January 16, 2023

Caitlin Burritt  00:01 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016, according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers also known as peers in different parts of BC.   

 

Caitlin Burritt  00:29 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

 

Caitlin Burritt  01:08 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use overdose death, grief, trauma, and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project a number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study, and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.   

 

Caitlin Burritt  01:43 

In this episode, you'll hear Ryan Nielson talk to Samantha Tsang about how essential it is to have stable housing and how maintaining his housing allowed him to have a safe space throughout his substance use. Ryan discusses his experience of being kicked out of his home when he was 18, the stress that comes with moving or losing housing due to rent increases, as well as the stress that he experienced while regularly working 10 to 12 hour shifts to pay for his substance use.  

 

Samantha Tsang  02:05 

Starting with housing, can you tell us a little bit about your experience and whether or not that's been a thing that's applied to you at all. Um, since you mentioned you did have a quite strong, I guess, work ethic even though you were using at the time? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  02:20 

Mhmm. Yeah. That's a good, good point. So like housing, yeah I have able to kind of support myself through all of it. Kind of at early age, I think I was like, kind of thrown out. Like, when I was 18, again, the second time, so I had to, like, adjust to that, and have a place to kind of live and stuff. And I think for, especially with like addiction, and particularly like the opioid addiction and stuff, because of the withdrawal symptoms, you get, like having a place to stay is super essential, I find to actually get better or make improvements. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  02:59 

Because I know for myself, there were like, if I didn't have that place, I like I think I wouldn't have been able to, obviously hold down a job or continue um, maybe using more safely, or all those kinds of things without it. Because it's just like, it's kind of trying to explain it as best I can, but like, because you get just so sick off it and like having... you need that comfort and stuff. So it's like, it's kind of like a flu, but like, a little worse, I guess, like a flu times eight or something. So like, you're really looking forward to going to a place of safety and stuff.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  03:37 

And so when that's not there, I know, there's been a couple of times where either the rent increased or kind of recently with all that kind of stuff. And that really put me through a loop because it's like, okay, I have something stable right now. And I think that like anyone can relate to it, even if they don't have addictions or not, right, just having a place this home is so important. And like it causes a lot anxiety or stresses around paying rent and having a place to stay, I think. 

 

Samantha Tsang  04:05 

For sure. You mentioned rent increases and stuff, how does that kind of tie in with your addiction at the time? Because you mentioned before that, you know, once you've budgeted out all your essentials, the rest went towards using--


Ryan Nielsen 04:20

Yeah --


Samantha Tsang 04:20 

so how does that kind of affect you? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  04:23 

Exactly. Yeah. Well, so it does affect because, right? It's more money you need to come up with and especially with using as such a like, a quicksand effect that reminds me of, right? Because it's like you have a tolerance, and then that tolerance is like, no longer good. The next week, you need it even a higher tolerance. So like you're continually trying to up your dose to feel normal or stable. Right? And so having that extra, more money to come up with now means like, you're gonna have to be more sick, right? If you're more sick, then that affects your decision making and kind of how you go about your day and stuff.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  05:00 

I know for me, too, like that was kind of during the time where I was like, kind of wanting to stop like that was in the back of my head. But I felt like I was so deep into it, where that was kind of like, not going to ever happen again. So definitely stressed me out because there were times when I would try like, 'okay, I'm going to try not to use this weekend or go like five days without.' And so the rent thing that was stressing me out more and again, with withdrawals and stuff like, the thoughts are so like, out there, and like, so many different types of thoughts at the same time. So you're kind of almost going to overload or sensory overload. 

 

Samantha Tsang  05:37 

Did you find yourself picking up more shifts to kind of accommodate for that difference as well? 


Ryan Nielsen  05:44 

Yeah, actually, thanks for saying that, reminds me of a good point. Yeah. So I got like, really into doing more shifts, which kind of got into like, more people pleasing behavior as well. And so it was like, okay, I'm down to do these 12 hour shifts, or 10 hour shifts that they need -- the extra hour or two. And so a lot of times, they will take advantage of that. It's like, okay, this guy will do these 10 or 12 hour shifts, like almost every day, so we'll hand it to him. But then again, for me, like getting to that point where I'm working 10 or 12 hours with less break and battling over the withdrawal symptoms and stuff. Like that's kind of when I got more into self harm behavior, like, kind of cutting myself to almost like, like, I'm still not sure like if it's because it's like a physical aspect or also emotion aspect. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  06:27 

But like, when you kind of hurt yourself or cause pain for yourself, you're kind of releasing a lot of endorphins and stuff at the same time, your natural response. And so I kind of used that to get me through some shifts a lot of the time; or started acquiring debt. So I'd start like, like fronting, I guess drugs. So people would be like, yeah, we'll loan you this amount for this amount of time to get you through your shift. But that also creates more stress because now you owe people money, that it's not legal, so you kind of have to pay that back. Right? So.  

 

Samantha Tsang  07:00 

Right. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  07:01 

That's kind of where, yeah. 

 

Samantha Tsang  07:03 

And how long did you often stay at a particular location before you found that budgeting didn't help or the rent increased too much, and you're kind of almost forced to move? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  07:16 

I've only had that happen, like twice. First place is really good. Wasn't too much of an increase and whatnot, but just at the time, it was, I tried to do recover again. So I tried to actually move back with my parents. So that time, didn't work out. And then I had to go move out again. But since I lost the first place, it happened one other time. But yeah, just kind of, like, displaces you, I guess. I feel like I didn't answer that question. 

 

Samantha Tsang  07:47 

I think it is good. Um, it's, I think it's, it's a little bit different. In your case, where, because you had a stable income. And because you had stable housing, it's a little bit different than your stereotypical story in that people would be bouncing around, or they were temporarily homeless. And I think that makes your story a little bit more unique as well, because it shows how, you know, very obvious, and very, like hidden the opioid crisis really is because, like you mentioned, rightly, it could be some 60/70 year old granny that we don't know about. And it's not always the people that we associate with drugs that are using.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  08:37 

I do have some experience with that, like, not very much. But like, I know, in the States, the first time I got kicked out, I was like, not housed and stuff. So I had to kind of look around. And I think down there too, there's like a lot less programs and services for those kinds of homeless and stuff. So that was pretty rough. I know for that trying to survive and stuff, I ended up just doing more bad things, I guess, just trying to find comfort or something to find a house and feel safe. And that was at a time like kind of getting involved with drugs and stuff, actually, with some people, my best friend at the time his older brother. So considering I was housed for about a few days, and just feeling absolutely terrified, couldn't sleep at night. Just trying to watch out for your safety. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  09:21 

So like having that kind of thing. I was like, 'oh, I'll do this for whatever, a year or two.' Until I kind of was able to get another job and safely and get myself back in order there. But it was, it's pretty hard, right? Because it's like, you're not housed. So it's cold all the time. Your safety, you're always looking out for, someone can hurt me, someone going to steal my stuff, is someone gonna rob me? And it's almost like a survival mode you go into? Like, it's yeah, so it's really intense. And if you do have addictions, that time, which I didn't have too much of the time, but like that plus, that is going to be kind of, I think, where a lot of the crimes and stuff happen with opioids and stuff is there like, they don't really have a choice at that point where it's like, they need to do that. So they don't go into all these withdrawals. And I guess like, especially recently, the last four years, I know, there's been a lot of, because I know this from my work and stuff, but a lot of benzos being tested with opioids being sold right now. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  10:23 

And the problem with that is like, well, a couple problems, like one, is because they're both central nervous system drugs. So they both work on that. So they will slow down your breathing and cause more of a overdose death, and that Naloxone can't actually reverse it. So you're really stuck on that. And then the third one, I guess, is, withdrawals are actually lethal, you will die, like, literally die if you do not get your benzo fix. And so that's kind of what we're seeing a lot right now. On the streets and stuff. And then I also had like, an addiction to benzos at early age. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  10:56 

So for me, too, I felt like I would die, actually, if I didn't get it, right. So that's, it's kind of like if you put yourself in [those] shoes, where it's like, 'okay, I'm gonna die and not able to function, without this. And I don't have a place to stay. I'm not housed,' you know, 'it's freezing cold all the time. I'm always constantly in like, alert mode.' So you never actually get a rest, right? And then it's like, I don't know, if you've ever kind of done it, where you stayed up, like for a day or something or two to do exams or all that, right? But it's like that times like a month or a week or three weeks and you really start to almost like, be like [an] out of body experience. Right? Because you're not, you're there but you're not there if that makes sense. 

 

Samantha Tsang  11:38 

Mhmm and there's a whole other psychological aspect to constantly being on alert as well, on top of being under an influence and everything else that comes with it. Definitely lots of challenges from the brain portion of this, let alone physical aspects. So yeah, um, do you know anybody that was unhoused or still is unhoused and kind of maybe speak on their experiences? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  12:05 

Yeah, yeah, I do it for my work all the time. So I deal with like, all of them in White Rock. So all the unhoused people. Recently we have this person, I don't know what program she's coming from, but she's actually trying to help them get housed. I know, she's done that for two patients. And it's interesting to hear their perspective, but like from one of them, so he got a place, but he feels really weird actually sleeping in there, because he's so used to sleeping outside for the last like 20 years of his life. That's almost what he's like used to and finds comfortable. So he's like, this almost feels weird.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  12:43 

Having a place like I almost don't want to actually stay there some nights because of this. But then you have other people, I know this guy, he really finds it, like, such a difference having a place to stay, that he's actually cut down on his using. He's looking at treatment options. And this is like, really unheard of from this person. Because he's, I remember like, talking to him, like six months ago, and he's like, 'yeah, this is going to be me for the rest of my life. Like, I'm never going to do it. I tried that. That's way past me.' So for him to be able to actually start to mention that thing. It's like, awesome. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  13:18 

But yeah, that's the biggest concern actually, when I talk to homeless or unhoused, people, it's housing, that's their biggest thing is because they see all these shelters, right. And the shelters. I guess, like from what I hear is like a lot of dysfunction there, where sometimes you have either a staff member that, like doesn't respect them, and will, you know, poke them and try to like mess with them. You have other people staying there, stealing stuff, or very sick -- a lot people get sick. So like, they'll constantly hear people like, with like phlegm or coughing up stuff in the middle of the night. And it's like, they have to be up by 6am, lights off by 11pm. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  13:58 

So it's a lot of them sometimes don't want to stay there because they don't get any sleep, or they feel not safe there. So yeah, that was, that's their big one and stuff. And I know a lot of time, when they try to find housing, even if they do like a temporary, like, tent or something like that a lot of times those get kicked out. Or we'll talk to other people that are staying, you know, underground, like a parking lot or something like that. And they're constantly being moved and stuff. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  14:26 

So they're always going through. And a lot of times too is like part of the having housing stuff is to have somewhere to store their stuff. Because that seems to be the biggest thing I hear is like 'someone stole this, something or blah blah blah, got stolen.' And so that always like, is hard for them. Because they're always like, all their life belongings or whatever is always getting stolen or gone. So they're always kind of back to zero. And a lot of them just have one pair of clothes, like what they're wearing. And like that's it. Yeah, so I was hearing a lot about that. 

 

Samantha Tsang  15:02 

Do you think I guess taking into consideration current events and everything, with your expertise, do you think you can maybe speak on situations like Chinatown or situations similar in regards to housing how, I guess, that forms or impacts the community building experience for people who are unhoused? And then I guess also, Part B to that would be what the police are doing and how that kind of affects the population there. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  15:40 

Okay, um... sorry, I'm not too familiar what's going on, like in Chinatown – 

 

Samantha Tsang  15:46 

Or I guess any community where, like, the tent city type of community?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  15:52 

Okay.  

 

Samantha Tsang  15:53 

Yeah. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  15:53 

Okay. Yeah, um... okay, I see what you're saying, yeah, all that stuff going on. I think it's really complicated. Like, even with this stuff I know, and stuff, it's like, there's always different parts to it too, right? I guess. And that's what I always try to keep in mind, is why things are controversial is usually there's one side who's not getting something as well, right? Not just the homeless people, but people that are housed and have community and houses and stuff kind of like, what's it like for them and stuff? And I know that's something that we're trying to do, is it an approach? But like, again, since we're trying to do there's not, I don't know, long term studies to kind of back it up or anything. But like, try and bring people together and have more dialogue events so people can understand each others sides and stuff. Because I know for people in tent city it's really hard for them right now. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  16:43 

And they're seeing a lot of increased like hate crimes, almost, towards homeless people. I'm not sure if you've seen that in the news a few times, but they're getting like threats or vandalism to kind of get out of their place or move spots. But like tent cities, kind of where they, like, all kind of stay and communicate. In Victoria, they have a tent city. And I know some people that work there. And they have almost like a kind of what I'm doing my job here, but there, where they have people that can kind of use supervised consumption site to give out food and supplies and stuff. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  17:22 

But they all work as a community, for whatever they're doing over there seems to be working really well, where they're not having a bunch of people throw garbage everywhere, they're cleaning up after the mess, so taking a little bit more responsibility with their life. And they're all kind of staying in the tent city. That's out of the city's way, I guess. So it doesn't bother them as much. And they're able to build off in that I think it's a little different than what's going on in Vancouver right now. And I know like with the police and stuff, it's it's hard, right? It's like, because but what I was explaining before is like when they get to the withdrawal scenes, they're sick, and they need to do it to survive, right? They're not caring as much about what they do, or their actions or crimes. And that's not fair to people, like, city residences and stuff. And so for police, it's kind of like, their job is to, right, help with those kinds of things and crime and safety issues. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  18:14 

So it's, it's kind of hard, where like, they're, they're just trying to do their job as well. Right? If they could have some more approach to how they talk to unhoused people, kind of like what I was saying we're doing, more dialogue events where both people can understand each other's sides and almost kind of come to a middle or something. Right? I know, like in White Rock, they're learning a lot more approaches and stuff, or even Delta, where they're really changing the way they think of it. From when I was talking to a couple RCMP people, they were saying like, some people still kind of believe in the old ways where it's like, you know, arrest people for this and that, and not really take into consideration that maybe it's more of a, like a mental health issue or disease thing, where it's like okay, this person has addiction and stuff, maybe we need to change our approach and the way we talk to them. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  19:05 

I know that makes a big difference, like, even the language and stuff, right? So, you know, addict versus drug user, or like clean test, or dirty, like those kinds of things, right? Where it's like, 'okay, you're dirty, or you're an addict or junkie.'' And so like, that doesn't make them feel good, or want to engage in more dialogue and discussions. And it is surprising, like when I do talk to a lot of these, like homeless people or unhoused, like end of the day, you're like, wow, this person is a human, like, they are just like us,' and they're just going through certain situations or trying to overcome things. So I think it's really good to have the understanding with both sides. 

 

Samantha Tsang  19:47 

For sure. Do you feel like even though tent city gets quite a bad rap from the general public, how helpful is it for the people who are living there? Like, do you feel that they have that sense of community and sort of safety that they're able to, kind of call it home? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  20:06 

Yeah, so I think so, yeah. Like that is... So even when I was talking about people stealing stuff from each other and stuff. If one of them is sick, or like going through something, if they have a broken bone, or whatever, they will help each other out, doesn't matter if they hate each other, and this person stole something from them, the person that stole something from them will still drop everything and help them and be there on their side. So they do stick together very, very tightly. And as a community might be a little more, like, dysfunctional, but they do care about each other and take care of each other. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  20:39 

So having a tent city, yes, like they are able to be in the community and feel a little bit more like they have a home rather than being displaced and stuff. And it's really important to just like, with like, the overdose deaths and stuff is like, the biggest danger is using alone. It's like, there's a slogan [which] is like, never use alone. So that's where that's a really good thing to have almost in a tent city, is the positive benefits of that aspect would be that, fewer deaths, community, a little bit of meaningful connections between each other. So I think that's really helpful. 

 

Samantha Tsang  21:17 

And in your area, Surrey, South Surrey, White Rock area, um, what's the demographic like for tent city? Does that differ at all from the demographic that you generally work more with? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  21:30 

Sorry, like, so I work in White Rock and South Surrey, like, how's it different than…? 

 

Samantha Tsang  21:36 

Have you noticed, like, a difference in demographic at all, for the tent cities in South Surrey and White Rock, or about the same? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  21:45 

Hmm, I think more actually, I have noticed more people. I'm not sure if that is because of the tent city. Could be. It could be also, I know White Rock is going through a lot of development right now. So they're building a bunch of new buildings and places and obviously with new buildings and expansion more people come in. And so that could be an aspect that could be the tent city, and they're coming over to White Rock because it's more filling up in Surrey. That could also be one. But I'm not too sure why. 

 

Samantha Tsang  22:17 

Maybe circling back to Victoria, um, is there anything that you feel that they're doing that's... more different than what you are doing with your community that you feel that they are more, I guess like, beneficial for the communities? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  22:38 

Yeah. Let me think of that one, because they are doing stuff differently. I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly. That's a good question. Like, I really want to know. I know because like... because they're somehow like, all involved and stuff. And I really want that for mine. And it's weird, like, I don't know what it is. But White Rock, it's almost like they, like they help and stuff. But like, they're not as I guess, consistent as some of the people in Victoria, where it's like, everyone wants to help, everybody's looking to do that. And here, it's like people will help for, you know, a couple of days, a few days, and then we won't see him for a week or something like that, then they'll come back and help out. And that's not really what's going on Victoria. 

 

Samantha Tsang  23:22 

Do you think geography plays a role in that, where Victoria is quite a bit smaller?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  23:30 

Yeah, I wonder I know, like, when I was doing some research on it and stuff, I know, they tried to like displace the, like, Hastings we had in Vancouver to Victoria. So I think a lot of people ended up moving there at some point. In the past, I'm not sure when. That and I also think the other one is like, which I kind of just realized now, is a hub. So a space where people can all kind of come. So that's something that I lack at my place is, it's a supervised consumption site, but only for injections, right? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  24:00 

And like, we barely have anyone actually use it for that, maybe once or twice, like a month, or couple of weeks, and most of the people have switched to inhalation. So they smoke it with like tin foil or that. And so we don't have a tent or anything to kind of offer that there. So I know we get people, but they'll... it's kind of counterproductive, they'll go outside or something and use, and then they'll come back, but our whole job is to watch them while they use so nothing bad happens. But no, in Victoria, they do offer that. So it's like one big hub for people to come to. So they can, you know, use their substances and have someone kind of watch them. And I know a lot of times they get the actual peers or you know, homeless people to do that job. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  24:48 

So they're almost like, 'Okay, I'm in a role right now where I'm making sure this person doesn't pass away.' And it's kind of crazy. But a lot of the times they have better experience in some of the first-- or paramedics with Naloxone and stuff because they do it so frequently, that they're able to, like, do that. And that brings them connection and stuff. But they also have like, I think it's like a hub for... I think, like laundry, showers, food. So it's like one big spot. And like, that's probably why they really want to have that there. And they really want to see the benefits for their own lives. They're like, 'okay, I can have my tent here, I can feel like I'm not going to die when I use, I have connections.' And that kind of brings, I think, people together and White Rock doesn't have that at all. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  25:38 

Right now, we're more like mobile outreach team, and then our little place at the hospital, which does it and then that's another thing we do is like, the hospital setting is not as appealing to those demographics I guess. Neither did I. I know like, that was something that really bothered me is like, I'd had some back pain or something going on. And I would go in there, but it's like, I wasn't going in there for drugs and stuff. If that was the case, I would just go grab better drugs on the street, right? So I'm just trying to find out what the root causes and stuff. But they go through all your history and kind of see what's in your system. So they obviously see like fentanyls and stuff, and they'll automatically change their perspective towards you because, and like, it is, I get where they're coming from, right? They probably see a lot where it's like, okay, this person is coming to get drugs, and they're going to play this big show or whatever, and do that. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  26:33 

And that doesn't make you feel very good because you're like, I'm trying to get help right now. And I feel like the system's almost failing me and like I'm below them. And so trying to offer that in White Rock does not, like, we are building up on it and helping people become more familiar with it as a hub. But we still lack some of those services, like the tents and stuff that Victoria has to make the same kind of impact they have. 

 

Samantha Tsang  27:02 

In Victoria is it like, a brick and mortar building or is it like a tent that's just permanently set up? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  27:09 

That's like a tent that's permanently set up. So, yeah, they do it... it's like a pretty big tent city there. There's a cool documentary they have over it. And I actually know some of the people that work there. But yeah, it's like a big tent and seems to work really well, which is nice. Yeah, it's really clean too, which is really cool that everybody really watches over each other and have a little, I guess, like, that's handy too is having like little mini rules and stuff, people like, you know, in recovery that's what they do a lot of times, like set schedules or these kinds of things. So a little bit of that is kind of handy. I think. I know it's handy for myself, as well. 

 

Samantha Tsang  27:53 

Do you forsee your organization kind of doing that in the near future? And do you think like, finances would be the main barrier or bylaws would be? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  28:04 

Yeah, we're trying to do that right now. Like... Yeah, so yeah, just so I just got promoted, like, last week to like, Coordinator now or whatever. So like, I got a little bit more insight into what's going on. But, um, so a lot of times, it's like grants and stuff. So literally from Fraser Health or Options or those kind of organizations from the government. But we're working on a tent right now for our OPS site. And, to, or, sorry, yeah, a tent for the OPS, which means overdose prevention services where people can use. So we're trying to do that. That way people can feel like they can use more often there, we did create another thing, it's having pretty good success, but it's a couple shower programmes. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  29:01 

So two different, two different demographics, is one is the females. So having a woman's place, we just got the funding for that. So we're just in the aspects of planning right now. And so a place for women to feel safe, shower laundry, almost like a hub for them, or like a shelter. We're also working for guys, because I think they don't have all men's places and stuff, there actually is no place for guys to go to if they're homeless and stuff. So right now we're doing that at the food bank. So we have like, almost like a studio apartment on top of the food bank. And so people could come in there, get all their laundry done, shower. I usually cook like  a meal for everybody. So whether it's like spaghetti or something kind of hardy for lunch. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  29:50 

That's what we're trying to do. And that's we're seeing more people come in that way and really find it helpful. Another initiative we're thinking of is kind of like something cheaper than the housing, but something that also would work really well is lockers. So like having lockers for people, to place your stuff during the day and stuff. Because a lot of times, they'll be carrying like so much stuff, like they'll have a cart, or I'm sure you've seen some of the carts and stuff. So that's... to drag that around everywhere is really hard, or especially during like the wintertime when we were having all the ice and stuff. So for them to have a place to put that instead of just leaving it out there and checking on it a couple hours later in the day, and it's gone. Right? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  30:32 

So we're trying to do that. I'm trying to get some more like trauma informed counseling for everybody, including the peers and stuff. See if we can almost, like, help disagreements or conflicts lessen and stuff... between everybody. Big one right now is like the businesses too, we're trying to engage with them, see if they could be willing to be okay with hiring people from recovery and those kinds of things. Which we have a little bit of backlash with them sometimes. And dialog events, which are good, bringing like people from White Rock into it. More funding for shifts so we're trying to get people to come out on outreach more. Help out with that. And yeah, I think that's it for now I can think of. 

 

Samantha Tsang  31:34 

Where do you, um... Obviously lots of big projects, and I guess... what would you say is like your biggest barrier in tackling all of this? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  31:50 

I would say like the stigma for sure. That's the hardest one or misinformation or just like changing other people's perspectives and stuff and that's really hard to do so. Right, because there's like, a lot of times, I feel like I get frustrated, sometimes where, like, put a lot of money into things, but almost like as a bandaid, not really on fixing the root cause it's like, the big ones I think that we need to work on are like prevention, and then safe supply and then treatment options. And those are really hard to get going for whatever reason. Well, I know-- no, sorry, not for whatever reason, because it's very controversial. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  32:41 

It makes sense, right? It's like, you're can tell people like, 'oh, we need a safe supply thing,' like, 'what?! You're talking about giving out like, legit heroin and all that stuff?' That makes no sense, right? Like, but it does if you're like, almost in the using aspect, right? So a lot of times is people are buying stuff that they have no idea what's in it. It's unregulated, right? So like, I was saying, I could have a lot of the toxic stuff in there, where people aren't initially overdosing, but they're having like, a lethal, toxic thing poison them, right. So, you know, like, kind of from my own history and stuff, like I never was like, 'oh, I'm gonna go like overdose today, or whatever.' It's like, 'I'm going to take a little bit to get unsick' and a little bit had some crazy chemical in there 

 

Ryan Nielsen  33:27 

that wasn't what I thought I was buying. And then I'm in like, the ER, twice that night and stuff and not sure what happened, like lucky to be alive kind of thing. Yeah, so it's kinda... it's hardcore. But like, having a, it's almost like alcohol, right? Because if you imagine buying alcohol, and like, one out of every six drinks, you have the chance to you might die. Like, that's kind of the same thing, right? It's like, unregulated alcohol, which happened back in the prohibition actually, right? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  34:01 

So same kind of thing. But if you can regulate it, it's like, here's what you're taking, here's all the warning things you have like on tobacco, whatever, take that money, and use it for other things like treatment or prevention would be really important, I think. [It's] really hard to tell people that, especially politicians like, it's hard too, like, I'm like, I always try to look at all sides and stuff. But so if you are this politician, and your goal is to win the election and stuff, saying something like this, whether it'd be true or not, is not going to get you most likely the election, because you're saying something very controversial, right? So it's like, it's hard because like, if they don't get in, they can't do anything. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  34:45 

They can be like, 'oh, I'm gonna do this, this or that.' But like the public saying, 'oh, what, you're gonna do this, legalize this and legalize that, and do this, like, no, you're not gonna get my vote,' right? And the less there's that stigma, which kind of goes back to what I was saying, where like, the biggest barrier I find is the stigma. Or you try and do these events and stuff, and these people are like, super closed minded, where it's like, 'we just need to cut off the fentanyl do this and this and this,' like, right, okay, well, like you could go to the states and look at, like Donald Trump and stuff, right? He tried that. Tried to cut off all the fentanyl, all that crap. But did it work? Not really. Did it make drugs even worse? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  35:21 

Yeah. Because they switched from fentanyl to xylazine and all these other, like, tranquilizers and stuff. Like, as long as there's a market, there will, people always will be doing it, right? Unfortunately, that's just like, reality we live in. So we could actually, like try to convince people more, so are like, [the] best idea I have is a dialogue event, seems to be the like, work the most. Where they're able to kind of tell what they think and how they think. And for me to be like, 'Okay, that makes sense. I understand why you think this,' or right, like, 'I don't have to agree with them. But I can agree with why they agree the way they do about something,' right? You'd be like, 'okay, I understand why you think that and it's actually pretty valid.' And then they're more likely to listen to what I have to say about my stuff and my perspective and be like, 'oh, okay, well, I didn't know that about addiction' or this and that. 

 

Samantha Tsang  36:15 

I had another peer mention, in regards to like a safe supply, that I guess, a part, a difficulty that she's faced is how much she can be allocated. Um, so in her experience, when she went for safer supplies, or even now in her job, she's only allowed to, quote unquote, 'prescribe like X amount to people,' but they have such a high tolerance already from whatever they have been using, that it almost doesn't match up. How do you kind of maybe see those two contrasting aspects being bridged? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  37:08 

That's a good question, like, I just had a meeting last month with a couple of doctors talking about that. But for instance, like, the street drug is so unregulated. It's hard to know, like, as they were saying, there's no way they're ever going to be able to precisely give them the exact dose they are looking for. Because 1.8 grams of fentanyl might be nothing, they might be getting 3.2 in that one hoot, right? Because it's so mixed in there, it's not anything, so like you're saying is, these people have higher tolerances or the people I know where they try to give like, prescription wise they have Suboxone is like the least one, Methadone, Kadian, which is like Morphine, long release. And then the last one is like Dilaudid, Hydromorphone, and like painkiller wise, like it doesn't really get much stronger than the Hydromorphone. It goes to like the fentanyl and all that other stuff afterwards. But like some people that are taking the Hydromorphone are finding like, like you're saying, it doesn't do what they need to do. 

 

Samantha Tsang  38:09 

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's always hard when you're trying to fix a system that has already had so many issues come up, and so many restrictions that are kind of being placed on top of it, like you said, all Band-aid solutions, and you just get like, super thick pile of quote unquote, 'Band-aids,' and you gotta really find the problems and can't really do a whole lot when there's still so much stigma and like, programs are underfunded, or communities are closed minded, like, there's so many layers to it, and just makes everything so much trickier than it needs to be. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  38:54 

Yeah, no, it's a really complicated problem, right? Like, to make things even more complicated about the safe supply thing, right? So like, there are gonna be people that like, completely got off of it, like AA style, or whatever. And they're gonna find that really like triggering or tempting for them. So again, like, is it fair for them? If they're already like, it's like, it's really hard, right? It's like, trying to help both people. But sometimes it can be very contradicting to what they both need to find that. So I think it's like almost about developing a mix approaches-- mix of approaches, not just like, this is the one thing we need to do. It's like, well, we need multiple different approaches for different people. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  39:39 

Because everyone's different, unique, right? And yeah, I don't know what that would look like, maybe it's almost like the safe supply would be through a doctor prescription or something, right? So it wouldn't be like an alcohol store where everyone in the public can go there. Right? It's like, can you get safe supply after you've tried this, or this or that, right? So I think that'd be more, more better. 

 

Samantha Tsang  40:04 

That makes it hard, too, because, I mean, like you mentioned, some people react more intensely to other drugs, and some they have no reaction to and some, they're just completely like, unappealed to, like close comparison to alcohol, right? Like, some people will prefer gin and vodka, and some people just hate Jaeger, and they just won't do it. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  40:28 

Yeah. 

 

Samantha Tsang  40:28 

But it's hard. And I think that's personally speaking, like, I think that makes everybody's job very difficult is that everybody is at such a different level or different stage in their addiction and kind of like even their own life, right? Where, yeah, nothing is one solution. And whatever you do, for one population will always affect a different population. Yeah, kudos to you guys. You're trying to solve a huge, huge thing here. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  41:01 

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah no, it's definitely hard. 

 

Samantha Tsang  41:04 

Is there I guess, any other comments or, like insight you'd like to give, kind of open mic for the last little bit here?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  41:18 

Um, let me think. 

 

Samantha Tsang  41:22 

Doesn't have to be about this topic, specifically. Just kind of anything.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  41:25 

Oh. 

 

Samantha Tsang  41:27 

We can branch out. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  41:27 

Sweet awesome let me think. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I'll talk to just like what's going on through my work and stuff. But like, it's kind of it's very sad. Like I'm seeing a lot of younger people become houseless or using more and... I don't know, I try to like be optimistic a lot of time but like, if I'm actually like, looking at the like, what's going on currently, it's like we're... yeah, like BC alone, it's like, we're still around like six to seven deaths per day, just so like a lot. That a lot of younger people doing it, and like I always want to know, like what's causing such an increased amount of people trying these drugs, right? It's not like, I don't know, it's really weird, like for me, at my time it was a lot of pills being pushed and stuff. Like I said, I lived in the States where there's a show called Dope Sick, I'm not sure if you've seen it, but— 

 

Samantha Tsang  42:29 

Not really. But I've kind of heard that name float around. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  42:33 

It's a good one. It's like on Stars, but it's like kind of a reenactment based on true story of like America during like, 2008, 2012, up there. And that's kind of where everything's getting pushed. And I remember like, even for my own self, like, I never got them on the street and stuff like, I got prescribed them by my doctor in the States. They're very enjoyable. And even coming up to Canada, I remember trying to get off of the oxys and stuff. And I didn't have a big addiction at the time, I was taking maybe like four Percocets a day or something. And there was no place to get help here. I remember at the time, and like, I think that's a big barrier, as well as we do have lots of resources, and we're getting more. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  43:17 

But do people know how to access the resources and where to find them? And I didn't at all, especially when you're... you're sick, and you're working a job and stuff. Like you're not thinking of how do I have time? Or where do I look for these things. And so I went to a private clinic in Whalley, which was like really far from White Rock. And it was really sketchy. It was like, you had to use cash only, no credit card, debit card, right? And he's like, 'what are you taking?' I'm like, 'I'm taking Percocet' and he was like, 'okay, like, you're taking fentanyl and stuff.' I'm like, 'no, like I'm taking prescription Percocet.' 

 

Ryan Nielsen  43:51 

And then he put me on like Methadone, but pretty decent dose. And I remember that actually got me from like, the next level, it got me from like, doing the little baby Percocets to doing more like heroin and stuff because it raised my tolerance so much. And like, that was kind of from my experience, where it's like, okay, doctors are more pushing these hardcore, powerful opiate meds. But here, I know, the really, the last, like, I guess, five or six years, they made it really hard to get prescription opioids, compared to where like, where it was, where they're really reluctant to give you them. And if they do, it's usually like the weakest amount like Codeine or something at a very short intervals. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  44:37 

But we're having more people die from overdoses than ever before, more than back when the pills were being pushed. So that's what I like, have a hard time understanding is like, people aren't just popping these pills. I don't think, I mean, right? Like, are they just going out and trying, like, heroin and stuff? But why? Why are so many people doing that right now? Like what's going on in our society? Because this is affecting BC, right? The most, like, seven deaths a day. So something's going on in our province. And a lot of times they're not up northern towns, like a lot of it's contra-- like, compacted for us, it's Vancouver area, or the Lower Mainland, right? Like, that's where most of it is concentrated at. So there's something going on in the Lower Mainland Vancouver, with people, normal people that's causing them to get to that stage where they're using. And I don't know what that is. 

 

Samantha Tsang  45:31 

Do you think that um being, I guess, less strict on drugs and actually giving that leeway of, you know, X amount being legalized, or the lack of stigma even, do you think that has any effect? I personally, don't, necessarily in, in the perspective of overdosing, I feel like it's a good way for people to experience and I think everybody should, if they're interested safely, but --


Ryan Nielsen 46:03
yeah --


Samantha Tsang 46:03
what are your thoughts? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  46:04 

Yeah that's a, good point, like, um, I guess I just have to kind of speak about my own perspective inside and like, I know, because in the States, I got a lot of the not lax stuff. It was like, you know, 'drugs are this, drugs are bad, and this and that.' And like, didn't really work for the city I was at, like I said, 85% or more, were all on it. So for me having like, understanding of it, or, like, it's one thing I do, like, appreciate of, like my dad at the time, he was like, 'here's what they do, right?' This is why people do it, it causes euphoria or this, but here's also the negative consequences to it. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  46:43 

And so I even that early age, that helped me a lot, even with getting my addiction, maybe even with holding down a job and stuff, but I like I still kind of knew what I was doing. I'm like, there's going to be consequences to this or there's going to, something bad's going to happen. And like now, when I talk to schools and stuff in Surrey, or White Rock, they don't actually teach about drugs anymore like they did, maybe for you and me. So there's a lot of un-education now where people don't know what's, what they do or don't do, and which I find really surprising, right? So I think that we need to have more of that approach where people can at least educate them with what's, what goes on what doesn't go on. Because I know when I was talking to a couple of younger people that are using now, they really, like, don't understand about drugs, like they'll think, 'no, I can use meth because I have ADHD, and there's no problem to it,' right? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  47:43 

Or these kinds of things. And I'm like, 'whoa,' like, and they get really defensive and, even with me, like trying to talk at a really like, empathetic, un, you know, un-opposing thing. But I'll just try to slowly be like, you know, well, 'the meth does do this, or this and that,' and it's like, very defensive, right. And like, 'oh, I Googled this, or this is what it says on TikTok,' or whatever it is. And it's like, really hard to teach them something else. Because like, they're very stubborn. And that's kind of hard core, because you want them to feel like understand what's going on in their brain, or what's happening to their, like, chemistry or everything over time, right? Just be more aware of that. And I noticed that what the older people is that they're all like that they like, they understand, like, there's consequences or what it's doing to them. They're like, 'yeah, I'm doing it anyway,' but at least they are educated with what's going on and prepared or properly, better prepared to handle things if they want to get off of it, or even for safety, I think. 

 

Samantha Tsang  48:41 

Do they not teach the DARE program at school anymore? I mean, it wasn't ideal when I went through it, because it was like drugs and alcohol are bad, but I was also ten. So yeah, it's bad. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  48:55 

Right? That's funny. Um, no, it was weird. Like, because I talked to the schools like a year ago, I guess, and they had nothing. And it was really weird. I did, like, a guest speaking thing. And afterwards, yeah they were like, 'yeah, this is good for our students, because we don't do that anymore in our programs' and stuff. I'm not sure if it's Surrey as well, but I know like South Surrey and White Rock for sure are not doing it. Yeah. 

 

Samantha Tsang  49:24 

Do you think the I guess, general public demographic of South Surrey kind of also plays a role into what the school board will allow? Or is it just like an individual school that's phased it out of their program? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  49:44 

It sounded like it was the whatever, the school board, White Rock School Board there. Yeah, so it was like, all of them. So I'm not sure why that is. But I think that's kind of what I was talking about beginning with three ones like prevention, safe supply and treatment, but like, the prevention needs to be really more allocated towards or put more funding towards, because like, that's the, I think one of the bigger ones is like, can we prevent people from doing it in the first place? Like, so we don't have to, and I think you need proper education with that. And at schools at a certain age, right, cuz, I mean, for me, I remember it was like, some people were doing it like at 13 and stuff in the States, but like, the big one was, like 15, 14, 15 was when people started, like trying things out and all that. So kind of having it before that, which I know freaks some people out, like parents and stuff, right? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  50:42 

Like, 'don't talk to my kids about that,' or whatnot. But, right, it's like, so important, like, trust me, you want to do this for later on, right? Yeah, I was kind of like me, I never wanted to do it, any of them. But people would just be like, making fun of me so bad, right? Where it's like, you're not having friends, you're hanging out with all people that don't do it, which aren't as popular, right? So you've got stuff going on in your home life or whatever. And so school is kind of like, starting to get bullied more and teased more. And eventually, you're just like, 'man, this sucks. Like, I don't have any friends really. Like I'm not happy. I can't get a relationship. I see all these other kids. And they're, you know, having a good time. So why don't I try this out?' Finally, right? Try to fit in. And then you do it. And then like, I don't know, for me, like that was the big thing that kind of made me want to do it more was like, kids would be like, 'oh, you're so happy. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  51:30 

Are you, what's wrong with you? You're high or whatever.' I'm like, 'No, I'm just like, this is me who I am.' People called me a weirdo and all these weird things, right? And so finally, when I did like some drugs and stuff, I was like, 'whoa,' like this mellowed me way out, where I'm actually able to be a little more cool and talk to them a bit better. And then getting that little, I guess that feeling where people actually are caring or talking to you that little popularity thing just a little bit, right? You're like, well, this is addictive. This is what I want. And so, like, what you're not going to do it anymore. Nothing to go back to the drawing board. Right? It's like no. 

 

Samantha Tsang  52:04 

Yeah for sure. Any final comments Ryan before I let you go and we'll wrap up for today?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  52:11 

Um... think I'm all good, yeah. [I] really enjoyed today. It's nice.  

 

Samantha Tsang  52:15 

Wonderful. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  52:16 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast, to listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com. And if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com Thank you for listening.