Unsilencing Stories

Ryan Nielsen: Episode 1: Introduction

Unsilencing Stories Season 2 Episode 20

In this episode, you'll hear Thomas  Chunyungco and Samantha Tsang interview Ryan Nielson for the first time. Ryan introduces himself and talks about his personal experiences with substance use and how this lived experience motivates him in his peer work. He also speaks about how he was able to hide his substance use from his employers and the psychological toll substance use disorder took on him.

Glossary:

CAT: Community Action Team
CBT: Cognitive Behavioural Therapy
Chinatown (Vancouver, BC): A neighbourhood near Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside, known for having a large unhoused population, many of whom are affected by substance use disorder.
CPI Training: Crisis Prevention and de-escalation training, through the Crisis Prevention Institute.
DBT: Dialectical Behavior Therapy.
Hoot: a single inhalation of a drug
OPS: Overdose Prevention Site
Options: Options Community Services, an non-profit organization which provides social services primarily in Surrey, Delta, White Rock and Langley. 
Purdue Pharma: A private American pharmaceutical company which manufactured pain medicines, most famously OxyContin, which the company claimed had very limited potential for addiction or abuse. Purdue is considered a major contributor to America's opioid crisis because of the company’s misleading marketing of OxyContin.
Oxycontin: A highly addictive opioid pain relief drug created by Purdue Pharma.
RCMP: Royal Canadian Mounted PolicSources Program: part of the Sources Community Resource Centres, a community-based, non-profit society that offers a variety of social wellness programmes in White Rock, Surrey and other communities in BC.

This episode was recorded on January 9, 2023.

 Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

 

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.   

 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Thomas  Chunyungco and Samantha Tsang interview Ryan Nielson for the first time. Ryan introduces himself and talks about his personal experiences with substance use and how this lived experience motivates him in his peer work. He also speaks about how he was able to hide his substance use from his employers and the psychological toll substance use disorder took on him. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  02:01 

Currently, I'm a, I guess, like, a peer supervisor for Peer Support Program in White Rock, South Surrey. So we kind of go out there, help peers live with experience, we kind of give them, like, harm reduction supplies, resources. We opened up a couple of spots for them, like, so we partnered with the Fraser Health, [set up] in the Library, so little spots, people can come warm up and stuff. I'm currently being trained for, like, a counselling position there. So like, I'm able to talk to peers, kind of help them through whatever troubles they're experiencing, or if they need help finding certain resources, getting on whatever it is, disability, or well, welfare, I kinda do all that.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  02:38 

And then recently, I got hired a couple months ago from the same organisation as an OPS site, which is kind of like a supervised consumption site. So I go there and watch people use overdose prevention services, if an overdose occurs, trained in first aid and do those kinds of things. Also with Community Action Team, which is kind of focused on the province as a whole, and like, kind of how we can implement more programmes or things like that to help with, I guess, overdose crisis, or any kind of addictions going on. 

 

Samantha Tsang  03:07 

 What kind of brought you into this line of work? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  03:10 

For me, it's, I guess, personal experience. It's kind of interesting, the guy who got me to join the whole peer support programme and stuff. He was a counsellor I knew from back before when I was struggling with addictions. And so kind of for me, I was born in Canada, I grew up in the States, did all my schooling up there to around grade 12, kind of around the, I guess, like, Purdue pharma thing down there with the whole Oxycontin, and it was really, really popular.  I remember, like, at my school it was about like, 85% or something, everyone just kind of did it down there. And so kind of slowly introduced myself to that, came up here in Canada. Became a problem more so when I was kind of like dealing with a lot of stuff. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  03:45 

I think, like, my best friend died at the time, I wasn't kind of speaking with my family, at the time, as well. So kind of just more turning to, like, escape ways. And I found that those things would kind of give me a little break for, like, you know, an hour or whatever. So I'd be like, 'Okay, this is kind of relieving me' of those, like, the hardcore emotions where you feel like giving up or life's not living, so kind of progress for. Like it, like anything, it kind of progresses relatively quickly. And then, you know, next thing, you know, I was kind of doing a full blown addiction for, like, I think, six years or so. So I did that. And then with the programme he asked me to join there, and I was still kind of in my addiction when I first joined and then through that I was able to do my recovery about, like, almost four years ago now. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  04:26 

Since then, I have a lot more passion, I guess, because it's like, 'oh, I used to be there.' I've seen the same spot these people were and what kind of things would have helped me when I was in that spot. And that's kind of what I'm trying to do now with like the Peer Support Program and stuff is, like, 'Okay, I'm actually able to help these people' and like, it's kind of hard to explain, but like the feeling you get when you do find someone and they're, like, 'oh, you know, I was about to give up' or whatever is going on. And they are so relieved that someone's actually talking to them like they're a human being, right? That's the big one, I find, is, it's a lot of stigma for them and that little, I guess, caring for them, like, goes so far with them and that feeling I get from that, like I said, you can't really find that anywhere else. So that's kind of why I'm in it. 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  05:05 

What are some of the benefits or rewards that you get from working in your field?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  05:10 

I guess, yeah, I get lots of benefits, like, like one I said, is just like kind of giving back. So with my own addiction, being able to help others in the same spot is very meaningful, passion of our work. Besides that, it also gives me, like, experience with talking to people, empathy, that was a recent one I learned was, like, what does it really mean to be empathetic versus sympathetic? And that's applicable to, you know, everything, school, relationships, family. So that's really good, talking to people, they put me in a lot of like these presentation positions there, trying to talk to other peers or medical officers. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  05:41 

So you kind of have different backgrounds. And that's, I find, really applicable to, even the school I'm going through right now, you know, doing school presentations, doing the peer support network, I'm actually able to build on those skills and apply them to school as well. And counselling experience too, it's kind of nice. I was debating between switching that for my degree, was like, psychology or this, so. 

 

Samantha Tsang  06:03 

How do you, aside from your interpersonal traits, things like presentations and speaking that you mentioned, how do you kind of see yourself tying what you're doing now with your future degree in marketing? And how 

 

Ryan Nielsen  06:19 

Hmm. 

 

Samantha Tsang  06:19 

you kind of want to work the two together, maybe? Or?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  06:22 

Yeah, yeah, because I do think about that a lot, how I can use two of them together. And so kind of working in this nonprofit business, there is still quite a lot of need for marketing. And that kind of is new to me, like, for finding that surprising or not? But yeah, like a lot of these programmes we want to market so, like, for example, this dialogue event we're having. So how do we bring, like, the people from the community and also like, maybe the homeless or people using in together and actually have an event where we practice dialogues, not initially debate, but how can we hear both sides and come to a thing, but you have to market that event. So marketing events, same thing, like you would market anything, anything else in business, right? So social media, all that stuff. And so by doing that, that actually helps me and with the degree, I'm actually able to take so much stuff I learned from classes in school to the programme I'm doing with the peer support and been like, 'Okay, let's try this,' or 'that didn't work. So let's try this marketing thing,' or yeah.  

 

Thomas Chunyungco  07:14 

What are things that helped motivate you at work?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  07:18 

That's a good question. I don't know, I just like, I guess, maybe from my upbringing and stuff and all that, just kind of like, was in a position where I really had to, like, my, my choices really had an impact on what I did, right. So especially when I was stuck in addiction, like making certain choices, I could have been still stuck in that versus actually helping people. So there's motivation to succeed as well and do well in school and stuff. And kind of almost, all that, all that time I had in addiction, all those years lost. It's almost like a motivation to do well with what I currently have now, kind of making some amendments that way. And so I feel like that's kind of what motivates me. It's just like, 'Okay, I gotta - I don't want to be able to prove stuff, I don't want to get those last few years ahead or four years [of] addiction,' and be able to overcome them.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  07:18 

And, like I said, helping people is really motivating, and seeing the benefits you do the program. Like, I know, when I started the program a couple years ago, it was like brand new. So there was not much people and then kind of seeing it develop to where it is now where we have, you know, other people working for us, I was able to hire like manager, peer support coordinator. So kinda like that's expanded more now. And they're hiring people. And they're coming up with programs. So kind of seeing the progress. Yeah. 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  08:25 

So you talk about, like, how you were, fell into, like, drug addiction, which, because you help others, can you tell us a bit more about how you fell victim to it?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  08:38 

Mhmm. Yeah, so like, one, I guess, was like, it was very popular where I grew up in the States. So I tried a little bit there. But it wasn't something I really got into. When I went up to Canada there was like, like I said, a falling out with my parents. So I was kind of like, on my own there. I had a significant other at the time, and some friends and then then some of them started dying and passing away. And so it kind of got like, [I] felt really responsible because like there's uh, I saw the person, my best friend that passed away, like maybe an hour before it actually happened. And so that was kind of one of those things where we're drinking, and alcohol can make it more dangerous when you combination it with, you know, like heroin or something, so that was really hard. And then, I know the significant other at the time thought maybe I did actually have something to do with it by giving him alcohol the hour before.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  08:38 

So then she kind of left me and so it was kind of like, 'okay, so now I don't have family, I don't have friends. I don't have anyone.' And I'm like kind of sitting with all this guilt and pain, I guess. And so that's where I found, like, [I] tried drinking and all these things but I found that made it worse. And so I remember that was - I took those things then I would just sleep. And so I was like, 'Okay, well, [if] I'm sleeping, I can't feel anything,' right? So that's what made it more appealing to me was 'okay, I can sleep on these things for an hour or two and I'm not actually like feeling all these emotions.'  

 

Ryan Nielsen  09:58 

And so then kind of with opioids, especially, they're very physically dependent so - and they start off really innocent, like, you can think you can use them like every day for at least two weeks without any effects. And so that's kind of what I found. I was like, 'alright, I'm able to get a little relief' and stuff and the next day, there's no consequences - there's no hangover or anything. I can go off and do my day and function and kind of kept on doing that. And then even had some benefits where I was able to kind of get a little tolerance for these things and take them and I was like, 'okay, I'm like, almost like a super, super soldier or something,' you know. At work, everyone's like, 'okay, he's getting a promotion, he's doing everything perfect. Like, this guy's always happy, he's able to talk to customers, he can do his work, he never misses shifts' and all that. So that kind of - [I] found that more appealing as well. And then so eventually, you get to the point where you need to take these things because you have so much of a tolerance to them, just to function, and it gets even worse than that. Where eventually [to] the point where you're taking these things just to feel normal. So like you can't even, you know, brush your teeth, you can't shower, you can't start your day until you get a fix just so you can feel normal. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  10:58 

So you're not even getting high at this point - you're just trying to, you know, function at that point. And so once it gets to that point, your whole life is really revolved around your next fix, your next hit. And so I did that for a while. And yeah, it was just like, I guess really, like it was rock bottom for me. And so I was like, very suicidal, tried [that out] a few times, like really into self harm and just really didn't want to be here. And so that was kind of the breaking point. I was like, 'okay, like, you know, if I'm...if I'm trying to kill myself and really want that anyway, so what's the harm of like, trying to just quit one more time?' So I did, I went to a treatment center. And that was kind of like the beginning of the new journey where I'm on now where I was able to get some really good help. Did that for about three months and then came out. In the program that was able to kind of like learn how to deal with my emotions, you know, triggers and all that stuff to the point where I'm at now, but yeah. 

 

Samantha Tsang  11:52 

That's great. Definitely lots of progress since then. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  11:56 

Thank you. 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  11:58 

Would you say you are a recovering addict or a recovered addict? And why? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  12:05 

So I would say recovered. And I know this is a little controversial - people will say, like, 'oh, I'm recovering constantly' or ...and maybe that is for some people, but I don't ever think about it. Like I haven't for, like, years at this point where it's so like, so behind me that I even find it weird a lot of times. I'm like, 'that actually happened?,' or 'that was actually part of my life?,' like, just feels really weird when I see at work or whatever, and people using stuff it's just such a turn off. It's like, reverse almost, or I'm like, oh, that's just.. yeah, so like, for me, I call myself recovered. And I also got into the whole habit, where in the beginning I would do a lot of those AA or 12-steps where it's like, "Hi, I'm Ryan Nielson. I'm an addict."  

 

Ryan Nielsen  12:42 

And like, I do that all the time but I found that almost counterproductive. It was like, okay, that's who I am. I'm an addict. And after you said that every time...'That's all I am? Is an addict?' It's like, well, no, that's who I used to be. Do I still do any of the same stuff I did before then? No. So am I really an addict, still? And they're like no. And so when I stopped kind of calling myself that I felt way more better. And like I said, I got this point now, but if some people need to do that, like, I understand that, but I just, I'm not at that point where I ever think about it, or ever would kind of thing. 

 

Samantha Tsang  13:12 

So you mentioned you're quite high functioning --

 

Ryan Nielsen  13:14 

Mhmm. 

 

Samantha Tsang  13:15 

 while you were using --

 

Ryan Nielsen  13:16 

Yeah. 

 

Samantha Tsang  13:16 

at what point did it kind of click that you made the choice to go to recovery and try to stop using and all of that? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  13:26 

I was still functioning even when I went into recovery. So like, even my... my like, employers or my boss, they couldn't tell. They'd only kind of tell if I wasn't using. It's really weird. But they're like, 'Oh, you seem off.' And so I always worked and stuff and even then, but I just was like, it's like the cycle where it's like, I'd work, right? Use the money on the fix, same cycle, and just over and over again. And, like I said, was very, like depressed and like getting into self harm and like just, just hated living. And so I was like, I need to find something else, right. And so that was kind of it. I was like, I can't keep on living like this, or like, I will just like end it right there. So it was either between ending it or not. And that was a strong enough motivator at the time to be like, 'yeah, time to like, go into recovery, actually.' 

 

Samantha Tsang  14:15 

Were there any sort of physical or materialistic struggles that you had while you're using because I think your story is quite different from everybody else's that we've heard?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  14:25 

Mhmm. Okay. 

 

Samantha Tsang  14:25 

Wherein, because you were functioning and you're able to go about --

 

Ryan Nielsen  14:29 

Yeah. 

 

Samantha Tsang  14:29 

your day, the main motivator being the emotional struggles that you had, it seems very different. So I'm just curious to know, like, what your physical, materialistic part of your life was like? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  14:40 

I guess so. I'm trying to think, it was pretty, I don't know, I guess, average, like, because I had lived on my own for a while there. And that kind of taught me like, and maybe just the way I was raised up too, is like, you always go to work, regardless of how you feel. And you don't let them, like drugs or alcohol, interfere with your work. And so especially with my own, I was like, I need this money to budget for this, this, and that. So it was kind of like an average person, like, you know, able to pay rent have a place, eat. So I made like, pretty good money, too. So it was like, you know, 20...20 bucks an hour, 22 an hour full time, overtime. The bosses liked me so they give me extra shifts. And so I was able to do really well. But a lot of it at the end was going towards drugs, pretty much. Anything that wasn't on[...] essentials, like food and all that. But yeah, I know, it's like, I know, it's not normal for a lot of people. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  15:26 

But there is actually, [like], a lot of people that are highly functioning and stuff - they're just like very secretive about it. So they're not as like, they don't want to come out and tell people because they do have a job and sigma and stuff. They're like, 'I can't [indiscernible] this.' But like, I've been doing this for a while, like I said, the Peer Support Program. So I'm very comfortable talking about it as I do lots of talks to people. But it is surprising though, like, there's a lot of them. Like there's there's old ladies of grandmas and stuff like 60 [years old]...and they do it like all the time, but you would have no idea that they're using like heroin or fentanyl, like a good amount every day.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  16:02 

But they're still functioning and stuff, they're able to like keep it down low. I found that really surprising. I was like, 'What?!' because in your head, you almost think like, okay, homeless people, that's who uses who uses drugs, right? And it's like, they're actually like, such a small amount. They're probably like, maybe 10% of the entire actual overdose crisis. I would say the rest of the 85 or 90% are people, at home like me when you would never know are using stuff, but they're like a hidden population. 

 

Samantha Tsang  16:31 

How do you kind of compare your experience and your life with the people that you work with now? Like, what sort of similarities do you see? And how do you kind of use that to better help them?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  16:42 

Um, I guess there's like, a lot of similarities. So like, yeah, addictions will always have different stories when in the day it's kind of very similar. It's like people are using for something like, people don't wake up and be like, 'Oh, I'm gonna be like, an addict today, I'm gonna be a heroin addict.' Like, nobody actually wakes up and does that, wants that for themselves, they always get something out of it. There's some kind of benefit that they're receiving from that, which then they're receiving from someone else. So a big one I find is like, opposite of addiction is connection. So getting people connected and stuff. A lot of the time, like humans, we're all humans, we need to bond with stuff, right?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  17:17 

Whether it's our family, or friends or something. But if people don't have those kind of resources, they will turn to something else, right? Like alcohol or drugs or gaming, whatever it is, right? Depending on if they're able to get their needs fulfilled or not, on what substance and so for a lot of the drugs, it gives it to them. So I know when I talked about people that are like, they'll hear some of the stuff I went through, and they'd be like, 'woah that's even more than what I did or like this, and that. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  17:42 

And so I can then relate to a lot of experiences they have, whether it's traumatic, or a lot of other things, right? So when they're able to be like, 'Oh, this guy knows what he's talking about. He's been through the same stuff, he can relate to the feelings, he can like,' right? There's a certain way you can talk to them. And like if you haven't been in it, or haven't experienced it you couldn't talk to someone, right? It's kind of I know, that was frustrating for me, when I'd be like, someone who quit alcohol would be like, 'oh, yeah, like, I know what it's like, it's like this and that,' I'd be like, 'No, you don't, like, alcohol and this are so different.' And like, people seem to be able to relate [to it] really well. And I can use that to benefit them. I could be like, 'Oh, here's what kind of, what I tried. Or when I was going through what you're going through, here's what I tried, and I found this worked really well' or kind of like almost have like a formula in my head for helping out people. 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  18:31 

What sort of advice would you give to a young person to keep them away from doing the same drugs you did? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  18:37 

I guess, see that, that's a hard one I'm trying to figure out too, right? Because like, I grew up with all the scare tactics and stuff. And like, I found that didn't work, I would say it's almost like a mixture to be, like, very upfront with people, like, here's what the drugs will do. Like, you're gonna feel this certain way, but here's also like, the consequences to that action, and you will get tolerance to this amount; this is going to happen, and maybe some alternatives. So like, why are they wanting that in the first place, right? So is it something that their family life? Did they, their family just die? Or whatever it is? And what would be some, like other less safe ways that will give them something like that? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  19:15 

Or help them through that without using the substances, I guess. So I got to really like pinpoint the physical addiction because, like, not many people I know of, like, actually get out of opiate addiction, or the hardcore ones. A lot of them stick on it. And it's like, you know, it's but I don't know how to tell that to people. Because like, when especially a young person to hear that they'd be like, 'okay, yeah, whatever, like, I'll try it anyway.' Because a lot of times people almost need to, like, learn the hard way or learn it themselves, right? You can like [say], 'Okay, now I've done this myself, I understand.' [Its] like riding a bike, right? Like someone could tell you how to ride a bike as much as you want, but unless you've actually rid the bike. So I find that difficult with those kinds of people. Like I'm not sure what the answer would be.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  19:56 

But I definitely think you should be able to, like, really describe everything. So don't be like, 'oh, yeah, it's just bad' or this and that, is it. This is why people do it. Right. So people can at least understand like, 'Okay, this is why people do it.' Here's also what happens when people do it. 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  20:10 

Yeah, yeah, no. I definitely do agree with like, the idea that you're being very, like, straightforward to them. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  20:19 

Yeah.  

 

Thomas Chunyungco  20:20 

A lot of like, some of the collaborators that we've - I've - asked that question around, they'll just tell us something... they tell it a little bit differently: that just because like the idea of someone else does it, doesn't mean that it's okay for you to do it.

 

Ryan Nielsen  20:36 

Mhmm. 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  20:38 

 But I like that you're telling them straight of what happens when you do do it. Because a lot of collaborators wouldn't bring that point up.  


Ryan Nielsen  20:48 

Yeah, right? It's a hard question. 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  20:50 

It is a hard question. My next question I have for you, Ryan, is what type -- which population of people do you typically work with? And what's sort of that experience like? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  21:02 

Yeah, so I work with a lot of Indigenous...Definitely like mental health, at-risk. We have some LGBTQ [individuals] as well. But they're, I would say they're like the, there's a few of them, but the majority of them would be like, I dunno, like youth, I guess? Like teens - we've seen a lot of teens, it's really sad. But they're like 15 or 16 [years old]. And they're... been kind of showing up a lot more too, so at-risk youth, I guess. 

 

Samantha Tsang  21:29 

How do you think they kind of get around to trying, especially at such a young age, what do you think, is their main access point? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  21:40 

The family from what it sounds like? Yeah. Because I'll ask them, it's like, that's just like, their family, their mom and dad are all doing it too, like, that's all they know. And that's really sad. Because it's like, that's how they grown up. That's how they have been like, for years and years and years. For them it's normal, right? It's like, 'Well, mom and dad do it.' 

 

Ryan Nielsen  21:59 

So they don't live in a like a good environment, I think, or there's like a lot of unsafeness in the house. Right? Where are they like, feel like they need to run away from the house for whatever reason, it could be like, you know, sexual abuse or domestic violence abuse or something. But all their stories are really, like, pretty traumatic when you, if they share it. 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  22:21 

Do you take a different approach for helping, like, young people, as opposed to somebody who is much older? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  22:30 

Yes, yeah, definitely. I guess careful with my words, and not like, kind of like more approaching them when maybe with older people, I'd be like, 'Oh, hey, would you want this resource?' or like, 'Hey, my name's Ryan,' or this and that, or 'what's your name?' So like, those kinds of things get, they get really freaked out of more easily. So it's really about like, kind of let them approach you or let them be more comfortable. You can kind of like, you know, approach them, but like, if they want to talk more, you got to let leave that in their court. 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  22:58 

Are there any other stressors that you see on a work basis that we should also ask about?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  23:06 

Yeah, it can be quite a lot, like sometimes even for me. Like recently, we try to start something at the program more  like at the end of our shift we can almost like decompress and stuff a lot. Because like, I know, Friday, for example, I was doing my shift, and we found someone and they're like dying. So it's like, trying to approach them when they're having an overdose, that can be fatal. And you also have peers with you who are trying to like help the program. So then you're like, 'Okay,' you're trying to make sure that they're okay. And they're not going to be like, you know, too triggered, but you're also trying to save a life and the person is unresponsive. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  23:36 

So you're like, 'Okay, I gotta check the vital signs, like, am I -- can I check this? Can I give consent?' Because...right. Know some first aid there. So I find that really intense, right, where you're like 'okay, I'm calling the emergency,' right? So they're coming on the way. Paramedics? Alright. I've gotta stay with them till then; okay, I gotta make sure his head's up; okay, gotta do this. And then you go back and...uh, or people fight, right? Like, one person will be upset over one someone else because they think they stole something, or, you know, all that stuff. And that can be really tiring. Or sometimes, like, if they're, if they are too high, like, I find that like they'll go in loops, right?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  24:11 

So they'll talk about the same thing for like, 30 minutes, really fast. Like, 'what about bla bla bla bla bla bla,' and you're just like, 'whoa,' like, because I'm like, I really like to listen to people. So like, for me, it's like, it gets a little too much sometimes. And I like have to like, go and end of the day, like, take care of my own health, make sure that I can go home, right, because that's another thing we don't teach you is like, you really care about these people, you develop, like, you know, you understand who they are, and like you really kind of care for them. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  24:36 

And then when you hear that they pass away, or something like that, it's hard not to take that like personal[ly] and be like, 'wow, like, this person's gone' or whatever. So you almost, you deal with a lot of death, you deal with a lot of people dying, you deal with a lot of addiction, you deal with a lot of people who are, you know, just went through something really intense or they're broken, and so you have to be a support to them. And yeah, like that can be a lot for sure. Yeah. 

 

Samantha Tsang  25:02 

I guess then, that being said, on a semi average day, whatever that might look like, what kind of steps do you do after work to destress and decompress and be able --

 

Ryan Nielsen  25:14 

Yeah. 

 

Samantha Tsang  25:14 

to be in that mindset to go home healthy? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  25:17 

So I mean, like I work with, we do decompress, I'll do it with, like, my manager or some other people, their at the end of the shift just to talk about what we saw, or like, how we're feeling and stuff. So we kind of go through that, that helps a lot. For me, personally, I find, like, one I've just been around it for so long at this point where it's doesn't hit, like, affect me as, like, still affects people not quite that much, because I'm so used to it. But I also find like taking care of your health is so important. So like physical and mental. So like I workout five days a week, you know, cardio, six days a week, eat healthy, fruits, vegetables, not putting in sugar, getting eight hours of sleep, meditation, sitting with my thoughts for like, you know, 30 minutes today, just like, okay, how am I feeling? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  26:01 

Like, why am I feeling this way? Okay, that makes sense. And like, doing those kinds of things, like it's, even if you're, like, don't have stressors that will help anyone I feel like in any career, of their life, like it makes you a lot more clear headed, a little more sharp and, you know, less anxious and stressed, doesn't affect you quite as much as well, when you take care of yourself. And knowing when to say no, and being like, hey, I need today off.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  26:24 

The place I work at is really good with that, is a source of community service. So like, you know, if you're, if you need a mental health day, or you just can't come to work, you can let him know. And he'll be good with that. So it's really about making sure you take care of your mental health, know when you're having a burnout and kinda almost like red flags, like 'okay, I'm starting to get burned out, time to put it on pause for a little bit.' 

 

Samantha Tsang  26:47 

That's, that's great. I think, I think honestly, a lot of people can use a few more of those tactics --

 

Ryan Nielsen  26:52 

Oh, right? 

 

Samantha Tsang  26:52 

and workplaces need to establish a few more of those things.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  26:56 

Work places do, yeah 100%. 

 

Samantha Tsang  26:58 

Yes. What does your support system look like now? Does that kind of factor into how you decompress? And I guess your personal life outside of work? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  27:07 

I guess, like, I don't have a counsellor really anymore. I did up to like, last year, but then he was kind of a support system too, but he was going, like, 'you know, I really don't think you need the services anymore. Like you kind of, you're already teaching it to other people and stuff.' But I do have like, family, you know, like girlfriend, friend. And they're really good to decompress. Very supportive. And so I can get that from there. 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  27:32 

How often do you think it would be good to decompress from work? And do you do it more often than what would regularly? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  27:42 

Do more than like regular employees or? 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  27:45 

Yeah. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  27:46 

I do it less, a little bit? I think other people, they, they need a little bit more decompression at the end of the shifts and stuff. I'm usually like, really good. It's just like, I don't know, like, I guess like the death ones sometimes, like, I'll decompress for those ones. But like, besides that,  I don't find I do, but other people will, they'll need like a little bit more time, like sometimes half an hour or so. 

 

Samantha Tsang  28:12 

You've mentioned just because you've worked in this field for quite some time now, there is a level of, I guess, you're not quite as sensitive to the things that you've seen. At some point, I guess it feels a little routine, would you say?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  28:26 

Mhmm. 

 

Samantha Tsang  28:27 

How do you think that kind of factors into the type of care that you give to the peers? Because, like you mentioned that, at some point, they kind of, all of you fit into a category or things like that. So how does that work for you? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  28:40 

I guess it works really well, because it's like, I'm able to not get so like, as personal, like, I still find it very personal and do it. But I'm just not, I don't take it, like, my mental health as much at the end of the day. It's like and I, the way I kind of see that is like if I need to take care of myself to take care of them and stuff. So if I'm finding I'm getting that impactful over some things, I'm not gonna be able to do my job as well. So. 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  29:05 

How do you manage workplace trauma? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  29:09 

We got like a few protocols, I guess, for trauma. Sorry there's like a lot of them, trying to think here. It's like, like, so for, we have trauma counselling and stuff, we have trauma support people. So those kinds of things, I guess. 

 

Ryan Nielsen  29:22 

How do you manage critical stress or workplace trauma given the practice you're involved in? 

 

Ryan Nielsen  29:27 

I guess, besides doing those other things and stuff is like using resources and stuff. So we have dedicated people that can do it or, like, if I'm counselling position in their traumas, they're talking about that, is usually about listening, helping them work through it. So letting them feel things, not interrupt them, their emotions. And then like I said, I guess we have people to help with that, we all kind of are open communication. So if someone needs to talk to someone, they all feel like they can, we make it a very safe space, includes everyone.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  29:55 

So everyone can kind of come there and we kind of have little rules to enforce that too. So if people do break the rules too much, or they're infringing on someone else's, you know, right to feel safe and stuff, then we have to, like, remove them from the facility for 24 hours, or give them like three warning strikes. And we have to do those kinds of things to ensure that. Breathing. Breathing is really important. For sure. 

 

Samantha Tsang  30:21 

Is there anything as a general that you kind of want to speak on about your experience or your work? I think for a first time meeting with you so far, I think we've covered most of our general questions. Would you say, Thomas? 

 

Thomas Chunyungco  30:37 

Yeah, I agree. I definitely do. 

 

Samantha Tsang  30:42 

Open mic.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  30:44 

Yeah. Um, yeah I don't know, it's just like, I don't know. It's like, it's, it's a it's a tough thing. Like, I'm really happy with you guys doing this and stuff. It's interesting. But like, it's, it's hard because like, we're losing, like, I have, like, all the numbers for deaths and stuff. We're like, in BC alone. It's about like, 7.4 or something a day, people dying a day. And I think I said, like, the big one is people think that it's like these people on the streets dying, seven people a day. And it's like, they're actually least risk of dying, because they have a higher tolerance. They're in groups and friends and stuff, right? It's people that you can't tell, right? I guess, some people you've been interviewing and stuff, right?  

 

Ryan Nielsen  31:24 

It's like, I don't know. It's a sad, it's really sad. And like, I don't, it's hard. Like, I guess the big ones I'm working on are like, with the government of BC is like prevention, recovery, and like a supply for them, a safe, safer supply. Those are the big ones. And yeah, I guess like treatment's really hard here, like, if people wanted to get help, they have to wait maybe three months or something. And that's just not viable for people. So [if] someone wants help, too, like, it takes a lot of courage to be like, 'Okay, I'm gonna stop, giving up what I've been doing for so long to function and go on treatment.' And then if they have to wait three months or four months, like, one, they could be dead by then and two, it's like, they're, maybe not want to do it by then, right.  

 

Ryan Nielsen  32:07 

And so otherwise, people need to pay like for these private rehabs, which cost like 50, $60,000 every couple of months, and then like, these people mostly wouldn't have that type of money. Like, I know, even I wouldn't have that type of cash. So it's, yeah, that's all I wanted to say about that. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  32:23 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com. And if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.