Unsilencing Stories

Taija McLuckie: Episode 10: Decriminalization

Unsilencing Stories Season 2 Episode 19

In this episode, Caitlin Burritt interviews Taija McLuckie for the last time. Taija discusses the recent decriminalisation of drugs in BC, which exempts adults carrying 2.5 grammes or less of illicit drugs from being subject to arrest or criminal charges, and or, having the drug seized. She discusses the limitations of the three year pilot programme, from the small amount of illicit substances that can be carried, to the lack of consistent or mandatory training for law enforcement, to the negative effects decriminalisation has had in her community due to stigma and misunderstanding from the public. 

Glossary:

Brave COOP:  The cooperative of people responsible for creating the Brave Sensor
Brave Sensor: An Overdose Detection tool for public bathrooms
CAT: Community Action Team
Decriminalization: A three year pilot project which began on January 31, 2023,which exempts adults carrying small amounts of illicit drugs from being subject to arrest or criminal charges.
Downtown Eastside: The Downtown Eastside is a neighbourhood in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, known for having a large unhoused population, many of whom are affected by substance use disorder.
Mobile Response Team: An outreach team in Taija’s community, created to support frontline workers during the Opioid Crisis
Moms Stop The Harm: A network of Canadian families impacted by substance-use-related harms and deaths, which advocates to end substance use related stigma, harms and death.
NA: Narcotics Anonymous 
Naloxone: A medicine that rapidly reverses an opioid overdose.
OAT: Opioid agonist therapy
VIHA: Vancouver Island Health Authority (also referred to as Island Health)

This episode was re-recorded on May 29, 2023

Caitlin Burritt  00:02 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  00:02 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  00:29 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  01:42 

In this episode, Caitlin Burritt interviews Taija McLuckie for the last time. Taija discusses the recent Decriminalization of drugs in BC, which exempts adults carrying 2.5 grammes or less of illicit drugs from being subject to arrest or criminal charges, and or, having the drug seized. She discusses the limitations of the three year pilot programme, from the small amount of illicit substances that can be carried, to the lack of consistent or mandatory training for law enforcement, to the negative effects Decriminalization has had in her community due to stigma and misunderstanding from the public.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  02:12 

Just for the starting point, I'll ask you to explain what Decriminalization is and what the policy - what it would mean for the populations that you work with and for yourself in, in your peer work. 

 

Taija McLuckie  02:29 

Right, so Decriminalization in British Columbia is a three year pilot programme until January 31, 2026. And adults 18 years or older in BC will not be arrested or charged for possessing small amounts of certain illicit drugs for personal use. The total amount, though, is equal to or less than two and a half grammes.  

 

Taija  McLuckie  02:59 

One of the important things to note on that, is that it's two and a half grammes total, not two and a half grammes of each substance. The illicit substances that are covered by the exemption are opioids, to include like, heroin, morphine and fentanyl. Cocaine, including crack and powder, cocaine, methamphetamine, and MDMA. One of the things that has had a lot of us on edge is that we don't find substances right now any like, down or like opiate substances that are not testing positive for benzos as well. Our fear was that the RCMP and not knowing how they're going to be like, testing these drugs, how they're going to use that against certain individuals, depending on where they are and, and their history with the cops. So that's a fear for sure. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  04:02 

Have you found any information on any training that law enforcement may have when enforcing that rule? Or do you think it could be totally spur of the moment? 

 

Taija McLuckie  04:17 

Well, what I've come to learn is that the, the training for them is actually not mandatory. It's voluntary. I don't know what the percentage is today. But it was actually quite, quite low. I think it was less than like 20% of the RCMP that had actually started and then completed the training.  

 

Taija McLuckie   04:43 

So, that seems quite unproductive considering I can't imagine the amount of money our government spent on this well-rounded training programme for the RCMP. Given the amount on money that they already put into it, it's actually kind of mind blowing that the training was not mandatory.  

 

Taija McLuckie  05:06 

So, what I know is that they were, yeah, they were taught like, how to like identify the substances and like, what colours they were and what they would sort of look like. And then kind of eyeballing the amount, we don't have like cops walking around with scales, so... which doesn't make any sense. Because I test drugs, I'm certified to test drugs through [bleeped] and I get down samples that are so many different colours, like the density, the like, if I was to describe it, like, some is like powder, and some is like hard pebbles, and some was crystal like, and some is half purple and half green. And some like shit, I have a really hard time like, crushing down. So yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't know how they're gonna eyeball that. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  05:58 

Yeah, and that's your perspective is from a professional who, as you said, you're trained in that. So the assumption that someone could make that type of call with possibly an incomplete training session is... 

 

Taija McLuckie  06:14 

And without bias, you know, like, you get into like, small towns, and you get the same cops like, with the same folks. And, and I don't want anyone to, like, get me wrong here. Like, I think there are more RCMP officers that, that do the right thing. And that really, like they want to help and, and only because I've been like witness to it, but we are all human. And not making any excuses for like, professional behaviour and like the horrific things that have gone on in the last couple of years. And like, and obviously beyond that, but when you have to go to work with one hat on, and then you're expected to be so many more things all of the time, and you deal with the same issues every day. Like, I mean, we're all bound to break at some point. Again, like not making excuses, but like, my, even my parenting to my kids have been like, subpar somedays. But sometimes you just, it's hard.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  07:20 

In a couple previous interviews, you described interactions with paramedics, where they expressed "oh, man, this is like the third time this month," where someone was having a drug related medical issue, or another conversation where I believe a practicum student had expressed that they did one day out of their nursing course on the total subject of, of addiction. And these are the statistics. They're very jarring to to hear.  

 

Taija McLuckie   07:51 

Yeah. Being an officer or a harm reduction support worker or nurse or a doctor like, you're not just dealing with one specific issue. Like, when you, you know, you go in for surgery, because you've like, shattered your foot. That doctor doesn't just talk about those like very specific medical issues around your foot. You end up talking about like, I can't chase my kids around, and how long is the recovery going to be, like you really get to like a deeper level. And so, to not have that type of training, especially like when it comes to health issues be like, well-rounded. Yeah, it's, it's disheartening, it's disappointing, and especially considering that like, our RCMP throughout Canada, like, they're this is government funded, you are a government employee.  

 

Taija McLuckie  08:49 

So, when I see these ads from our government, and these very small, you know, bread crumbs that they hand out, and then they, they announce this Decriminalization and they make it so amazing. It's a joke, because they don't even mandate their government employees to take the training. So who are you helping? You just spent a shit ton of money because maybe you had some leftover at the end of the fiscal year like, fuck off! Yeah, I obviously feel strongly about this. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  09:21 

Yeah. But it's also something that it's- it's going to directly affect the people you work with, and probably your daily working, if it hasn't already. But one of the things we were talking about the first time that we were doing this topic was whether this was something that was developed by the government in isolation or if it was something where there was any peer or harm reduction involvement in coming up with this idea. Do you think that there was consultation? Or it seems like there could have been more? 

 

Taija McLuckie  10:01 

Yeah, I know that like, folks like Garth Mullins was invited to the table. He runs a podcast, the Crackdown [Podcast], and he advocated heavily for you know, that people who actually use these substances and who are going to be affected by this change. And what we ended up doing was, and there was lots of groups involved, and drug use user activist groups. And like, forgive me for like, not calling them in this very moment. But there was a lot of people that advocated for a much higher threshold. I think it was 4.5 grammes? Maybe five grammes.  

 

Taija McLuckie  10:50 

It's been a while since all of this hype was, you know, online. But what they, what we ended up going with was the Victoria, the police department, and what they're, like, when they would seize drugs, they took that average of what they would like seize and then like, document, which made no sense, 'cause I think I shared this previously, where I've actually seen and witnessed an RCMP officer confiscate a significant quantity of drugs, like maybe 10 times that. And that's, that's quite typical, especially around cheque day, where they will seize those, those drugs.  

 

Taija McLuckie  11:40 

And that comes with a lot of paperwork. And this isn't to say that all, like, cops do this. But if every single city funded cop or government funded cop documented every single thing that they took from somebody, we wouldn't have anyone on the streets, like, you know, serving and protecting. They'd just be like, buried in paperwork all of the time. 

 

Taija McLuckie  12:05 

Yeah. So they took that threshold. Which is, it's a joke. I mean, even if like,  you even go down to Victoria, when they started like taking these stats, like no cop is going to be taking drugs, even from someone who's unhoused or like, dependent. What they're probably getting their stats from and like, this isn't fact like, this part of it, but likely two and a half grammes....I mean, I used to party with two grammes of coke. So that makes sense that that's their average. Yeah. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  12:35 

Do you think that the 4.5 to five grammes that you mentioned earlier is more realistic? Or is that sort of still on the, on the lower side of that estimate, but it would just give people a little bit more, I guess, wiggle room in [that] situation?  

 

Taija McLuckie  12:52 

I think it would give them more time to travel from location to location with something, for sure. Honestly, like, the dope right now is so horrendous that I, I couldn't, I couldn't even have like an educated opinion on what, what is a good amount for someone? Yeah, I don't know. I'm not the best person to speak to that.  

 

Taija McLuckie  13:17 

I think, I think four and a half to five is much better than two and a half. I think that especially around check day, it's much cheaper to buy in bulk. I think everyone, substance user or not, can agree on that. I spend way too much money at Costco. But in the long run, it's cheaper. I'm gonna go to Costco and spend 600, 700 bucks, and then my kids have, you know, snacks and juice boxes and all their shit for school. Or, I'm gonna go to the grocery store and spend the same, it'll last me two weeks. So, same things happen with drugs, more bang for your buck. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  13:57 

That makes sense.  

 

Taija McLuckie  13:58 

Yeah.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  13:59 

The other thing you mentioned earlier that too, of it's, it's almost working on the assumption that someone would have 2.5 grammes of one thing and not multiple things. You also said that the the officers aren't carrying scales. So, it just seems like an opportunity where there could be a lot of arbitrary arrests or detainment. Or, and I know when we initially spoke about this, it was the uncertainty of what that would look like. Would they be confiscating things? Would they be holding people? Have you noticed within the community that any of these things are taking place or just more broadly of how is it? How is it affecting people who use drugs since it's rolled out? 

 

Taija McLuckie  14:55 

Yeah, I had a lot of stress around this, in particular around people who don't have the greatest history with our RCMP and I was concerned for their well being. I wasn't able to find out any information on how they were actually going to...I'm like, are they going to test these substances? Because at [bleeped], although we allow anyone to come in and test, we will not accept drugs from the RCMP. Or any sort of enforcement. That's, that's not what this project is about. 

 

Taija McLuckie 15:25 

And we are aimed at, like, keeping people safe. So I was afraid of what kind of like technology, technology that they were going to use and how reliable that it was. Still, I haven't found out anything about it. And yeah, so I have not seen any of those. I really haven't seen this, like affect our community at all, unfortunately, because something like this with a threshold that matched like, the use of someone, and like, met our folks where they're at. And yeah, it just, it could have been great. But it's, it's not. So not good or bad. Just everything's kind of business as usual. Except the drugs are just getting shittier. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  16:17 

Yeah, I mean, I guess one hand, at least the higher end of the concerns haven't materialised. But then it's obviously if it's, if things are the same, then it hasn't proved that helpful either, but I guess it's still... since it's only been a few months still, I think, if not a few weeks that this has been in action? 

 

Taija McLuckie   16:44 

It's been a while. It's been since January 31st. I think, the only thing that it has done is had some significant negative effects on our community. Around the time, around the end of January and beginning of February, what ended up happening is that we had RCMP approach local businesses in the area and let them know, in a very uneducated way, of letting people know that they're going to be decriminalized.  

 

Taija McLuckie  17:14 

So, we were getting, I was getting phone calls constantly being like, drugs are decriminalized, and like, that they're legal. And there was so much misinformation being passed around and so much fearmongering that happened. And, like, previous to the Decriminalization there, we didn't receive as many of these phone calls of, you know, the issues. And there's been a huge uptake or sorry, uptick in in all of this. In the stigma, in the misinformed, in the fear. And, yeah, and just the complaints, you know, like right now, we're still like one of the only places on the island that doesn't, we are the only place on the island, one of the major cities that does not have a safe inhalation site.  

 

Taija McLuckie  18:07 

And, you know, we're, we're trying to open this fix site right now, like in collaboration with Island Health, and we already, we already have a safe injection site there that's been there for a couple of years. And you know, they're getting like, Island Health is getting the these feedback letters that are like, we don't want this in our backyard, and we don't want a safe inhalation site. And it's like, lady, there's already been one there for like, two fucking years. Like, have you noticed any difference? So, there's a lot of fear that's been put into people. I don't get it. I just, I don't I don't understand. I don't understand how people can do this.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  18:48 

And so, it has negatively affected the community but from a slightly different angle then was, not as much the RCMP themselves but the public being misinformed and just thinking it was decriminalized full stop. 

 

Taija McLuckie  19:05 

Totally. And which was perpetuated by our RCMP, who, who went into these local businesses, who went into the library, who went and talked to these business owners to you know, let them know that things are going to be changing and that there's this Decriminalization, which, when you are telling someone something that they don't understand in the first place, and then you're using language that they don't understand... 

 

Taija McLuckie  19:31 

If I had a cop come to me and say, and I didn't know any of this, and I just thought, like, you know, drugs were the problem. And a cop came to me and was like, "yeah, like, drugs are going to be decriminalized," then I would associate that with being legalized. And I'd be like, "oh my God! What's going to happen to my business?"   

 

Taija McLuckie   19:47 

And then, when you don't follow up and you don't provide support, you just offer this fucking trauma bomb on someone. And then you leave. Like, what do you...what? And so, yeah, there's a ton of businesses within our area that have, that were, that were scared and that were, you know, preparing for the worst. And now, there's like certain businesses that won't even carry Naloxone because they think that that that's them doing their part in not enabling someone to use drugs, which, like, secret, the only thing now Naloxone enables is breathing. That's it. Yeah. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  20:28 

But yeah, that's, that's a huge effect. To take things like that, sort of, out of, out of action and to just create... I mean, stigma is something that it's come up many times over the course of conversations, but it, it really sounds like this came about in a way that played into fears that people already had. And especially people who have no contact or don't, yeah, don't know anything about harm reduction, or what the reality is for people who use drugs to play exactly into a narrative that it's easy for people to get panicky about. And yeah, it's just really unfortunate that it's- 

 

Taija  21:13 

Reckless, irresponsible.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  21:16 

Yeah. Because, as you said before, it's such a big machine of a programme, how do you put the brakes on something like that? To try and salvage the ideas that could be useful when it's already crashed into the communities that it means to help. But one of the points when we discussed Decriminalization initially, was that it can also create a lot of harm, and especially because there's there's history of harm between the community and government agencies, and law enforcement. 

 

Taija McLuckie  21:52 

Well even like, what you just kind of sparked in me, as I'm reflecting on our response during like, COVID-19. And how many press releases did you see daily, hourly, weekly updates, facts, facts, this is me air quoting facts, information, death tolls. Like, you could not turn on a single news channel without finding out something new, some different variant, where it's being hit, what cities are being affected the most, what demographics are being affected the most. And, and it was in your face all of the time. And none of us had a choice. Well, that's a loose term, but we none of us had a choice but to, like, succumb to what was happening.  

 

Taija McLuckie  22:43 

And I, I really, I would just challenge folks to look at the comparisons in each. There's no profit in,  in us getting better. Like, there's really, there's, there's not because these pharmaceuticals make a ton of money. But, like during COVID, and not that the vaccine, like, I'm not an anti-vaxxer, I am vaccinated. Definitely, like, support the vulnerable communities. So please don't come after me. But there's, there's a new vaccine, and that also makes a shit ton of money.  

 

Taija McLuckie   23:24 

So, the same thing for prescribed pharmaceuticals and non-prescribed and like, there's all these dynamics that kind of all lead to money. And it's, there's, there's, this has been announced as a crisis since 2016. And we learned more about COVID in a year and a half with like, what? A quarter of the death toll, than we ever have about substance use or opiate use disorder or any sort of like, dependency on any illicit drug. But like, I'm sitting here having a glass of wine and that's okay. So, yeah, I don't know. It's a... It sucks because people die. Sorry for my rant. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  24:08 

It's no, it's okay. But I think it's one of those things too, where if you look at the front facing people that people would expect to be impacted by both of those examples, which is not to say, obviously, addiction can also affect anybody, but I think COVID, it was everywhere. It was also affecting wealthy people. It wasn't just affecting marginalised groups and I think that absolutely plays into the the urgency of the response. And so I'm sure in your field, it's it's a very noticeable difference. 

 

Taija McLuckie  24:48 

Yeah, like that. Most people that are dying are like middle age, middle-aged, well, I was gonna say most people are dying and middle-aged white men, but that's not true. It's, I think that percentage of Indigenous women compared to, on top of women, on top of white men, on, and then surpass from that, is Indigenous men. Which is, I think we just had the stats, I think it was like 8.9 or 7.9% times more likely than non-marginalised groups, white people. And then Indigenous women are 10, 10.9 times more likely than Indigenous men and, and white people to die from this. Like, if that doesn't like, mess you up inside, you need to take your shoes off and like, go feel the earth and talk to somebody. Like, that's just devastating.  

 

Taija McLuckie  25:51 

We like, we make the people. We make the men, we make the white men, the Indigenous men, the Asian men, like, in the end, like we make all of them. So, how is this more important and not that, like, the vulnerable elder people who are being affected by this virus are not important. Of course, they are important. If it like, if it was my grandma, of course. But we have an entire generation of people who are being wiped out, like, daily. Yeah, I just, I don't, I don't understand how this like, the whole, to come full circle, this Decriminalization is. I want real change.  

 

Taija McLuckie  26:34 

I want just some bad-ass bitch to come into power. And then just to be like, you know what, "fuck you, fuck you," and then just make some real, significant change and stop taking profit over, like, over people. None of us are making out of this, like, out of this life alive. But man, when it's your last day, what are you going to be good with? Yeah, it's too bad. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  27:03 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you, thank you for sharing and, and bringing those, those figures as well, to the conversation, because I think it's really, it's really important. And I think, as you said, Indigenous women on almost every front that there is, are at such a higher risk of risk, or worse. And they say it's really, I don't know, it's such a complex problem. But on the other hand, it's just people need support. And so it, it's also, in a way, like, it can sound like just put the support where it needs to go. But yeah, as you said, there's money and institutions involved. And so it's... 

 

Taija McLuckie  27:57 

I just feel like, I feel like, you know in like Alice in Wonderland, when she's like, "off with her head?" Like, it's like, literally what I want to do with most institutions. I just want to be like, why can't we just like chop them all off from the head? Because I've had more conversations in the last few months with, with Island Health professionals. I mean, I've met with our Medical Health Officer from the North Island last week about a safe inhalation site. And something I shared with her was, I have more, more private conversations with people who work for these agencies and institutions and every single one of you starts a conversation with, "I don't want to make an excuse for such and such, but." Or, "I fucking hate the way that this system works."  

 

Taija  McLuckie  28:52 

Or, I mean, we just had a client die last week, and this kid, and when I say kid, like 20-something like, early 20s, he, he changed my fucking life. And he died in treatment, because there's actually no statistics on treatment and whether it works or not. We just believe it because it's run by corporate fucking private companies. And it's, it's all a mess.  

 

Taija McLuckie  29:17 

But the reality is, is that we all actually hate the systems that we're stuck in. And there's more of us than there are of them. There's probably like, what?  Maybe 10, 15, Board of Directors in every corporate structure? If we all just stopped having private conversations, then maybe there might be some change. Or maybe I'm just living in a, what's that world that they say, or it's like, fantasy. Or like, everyone makes the same wage. You know?  Yeah.

 

Caitlin Burritt  29:52 

Yeah, like, like, utopia, something like that? 

 

Taija McLuckie  29:58 

 Yeah, utopia. Yeah, totally. Yeah. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  30:04 

Yeah. Yeah, it's just so. Yeah. I mean, if first of all, I'm, I'm sorry for the loss of the person in the community, it must be so frustrating to have to have those conversations so many times and just -- go ahead. 

 

Taija McLuckie  30:30 

I was just gonna say, I think someone has to have them. And as devastating as it is sometimes, I don't know what else I would do. Like, I just, I truly feel like this is like, what I'm here for. And, yeah, it's just what I'm meant to do.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  30:46 

Well, I think, I think too, in the past, you've also described yourself as someone who's a storyteller, and I think that is so helpful in the face of these big systemic things, because it takes it, you know, beyond the statistics, because I think it's in getting support and things like that it can be hard for people to connect with "X amount of people have passed away this year," or to share these more abstract figures.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  31:17 

But when it's stories of people that you knew or your own experience, I think people can connect to that. And hopefully, that is something that can help along the road of making changes, because it's easier to connect with stories from the community, told by someone with that lived experience than it is to hear on the news. Somebody say, [indiscernable] 

 

Taija McLuckie  31:41 

Totally. Look what's happening in Ukraine right now. That is the, that it's easy to disconnect from. I'm not there, I don't have family members that are there. That doesn't mean that I don't care. Of course, I care that this is happening. But, to connect with something, you have to connect it to like a person, place or feeling that you've had of your own.  

 

Taija McLuckie  32:06 

That's how we relate to everything. You hear a song, brings you back to a moment, like, you smell a smell, like the smell of bleach, and vanilla, that makes me feel like I'm at home, because that's how my mom always cleaned the house with bleach. And then she always had vanilla scented candles. So, no matter where I am, if I smell vanilla, I feel like I'm home immediately. And, and that's that's how people connect.  

 

Taija McLuckie  32:31 

So, you can you can tell all like the horrific stories, but until you can tell something that like comes from your heart that, you know, tells the story and sings a song, then they're not going to connect anybody. Yeah. I mean, that's just my opinion. Anyways, that's why we get lost in books. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  32:49 

Yeah, yeah, I think that that makes sense. And it's also, as you said, hearing from people that too, it's not all horror stories as well. But there's, I mean, obviously are but it's, yeah, there's joy, and there's triumphant stuff as well. And I think that has been a really nice counter-narrative to be able to hear, because that I think, in similar to some of the other themes of today, good news doesn't sell or get as many views as bad news. So I think it's, it's like a good reminder to, yeah, just there are people trying really hard. And yeah, they're doing some really good things for the community.  

 

Taija McLuckie  33:33 

Yeah. And if anyone spent, if anyone has not experienced, like, what this line of work is, or has fear, or some preconceived idea or judgement on, you know, folks who are unhoused, are- who use drugs, like, just, I've really encouraged people to go and spend just like a few days at either like a warming shelter, or warming centre, or a shelter setting, or, like, just volunteer time and just observe, because I've never felt more love and more community and more support. And like, it's family.  

 

Taija McLuckie  34:18 

Yeah. I love what I what I do. I know I've said this quite a few times, but I, I could not imagine going to work every day and then also having to deal with the stressors. But having that coupled with hating my job. I fucking love my job. That doesn't mean that it's easy, but I just I wouldn't change it. I love it.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  34:40 

Yeah. And I think that is like, maybe it's a theme of its own as well, like, of course, that the stressors make things more complicated and they make it challenging, but if it was totally unbearable, or you found no joy in the work, it would probably not be the case that you would stick with it and also work so hard at it.  

 

Taija McLuckie  35:00 

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of people that go to work every day because they have to, and they hate it. They hate their job and I, I am just fortunate enough and worked my ass off enough to get to a point where yeah, I don't have to hate my job anymore. Just like yeah, I love it.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  35:20 

Yeah. Which is just a really great to like, reiterate every, every conversation or every few interviews of in the face of stress. It's also yeah, there's also a lot of passion there. 

 

Taija McLuckie  35:33 

Yeah, the people that are missing out are like, above all of it and they think that, I just think there's like, this people like, the groups of people that are like, above this or like, above me, maybe above like, my pay grades or whatever. All the people that like, are not entrenched in this, man. What a... what a miss. It's a beautiful life down here. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  35:54 

Which I think, yeah, just glancing at our time, we're hitting about 45 minutes, but that might be a a nice spot to, to end it for the day.  

 

Taija McLuckie  36:10 

Cool.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  36:11 

Yeah, there's some great, great things about peer work as well and harm reduction. So. 

 

Taija  36:17 

Cool.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  36:19 

Yeah, just thank you for for bringing those to the conversation as well.  

 

Taija  36:24 

Thanks for letting it like, free flow.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  36:27 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com. And if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com Thank you for listening.