Unsilencing Stories

Taija McLuckie: Episode 9: Death, Grief & Thoughts on Project

Unsilencing Stories Season 2 Episode 18

In this episode, Taija McLuckie talks to Caitlin Burritt about death and grief. Taija shares about the passing of her friend and her own approach to dealing with grief. She also speaks about the challenges that the holiday season presents for people who use drugs and how her lived experience helps her connect with the people in her community.

Glossary:

Brave COOP:  The cooperative of people responsible for creating the Brave Sensor
Brave Sensor: An Overdose Detection tool for public bathrooms
CAT: Community Action Team
Decriminalization: A three year pilot project which began on January 31, 2023,which exempts adults carrying small amounts of illicit drugs from being subject to arrest or criminal charges.
Downtown Eastside: The Downtown Eastside is a neighbourhood in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, known for having a large unhoused population, many of whom are affected by substance use disorder.
Mobile Response Team: An outreach team in Taija’s community, created to support frontline workers during the Opioid Crisis
Moms Stop The Harm: A network of Canadian families impacted by substance-use-related harms and deaths, which advocates to end substance use related stigma, harms and death.
NA: Narcotics Anonymous 
Naloxone: A medicine that rapidly reverses an opioid overdose.
OAT: Opioid agonist therapy
VIHA: Vancouver Island Health Authority (also referred to as Island Health)

This episode was recorded on January 16, 2023.

Caitlin Burritt  00:02 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016, according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers also known as peers in different parts of BC.    

 

Caitlin Burritt  00:29 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper, they outlined significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing, and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.     

 

Caitlin Burritt  01:08 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose, death, grief, trauma, and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's chair award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.    

 

Caitlin Burritt  01:42 

In this episode, Taija McLuckie talks to Caitlin Burritt about death and grief. Taija shares about the passing of her friend and her own approach to dealing with grief. She also speaks about the challenges that the holiday season presents for people who use drugs and how her lived experience helps her connect with the people in her community.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  01:57 

For starters, because it's now been since --

 

Taija McLuckie  02:01 

December, right? 

 

Caitlin Burritt  02:01 

just before Christmas, yeah, that we spoke, how have you been? How's it been going in your life and work? 

 

Taija McLuckie  02:12 

Life is... Oh man, at our staff meeting last week, our coordinator said, "today I am good enough." That's kind of how I feel that this year is like rolled out as. We had. So one of my friends died last week, I don't know like the entire, like surroundings and what was going on in her life. But she OD'd and, and like, it just, grief gets. It's so weird. It's just quite complicated. And when someone dies, who knows all of the resources, and like she's brilliant, and had her master's, and like, worked with the most severe cases of mental health and substance use and unreal at her job. And then when that happens to someone like that, it feels like super defeating.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  03:15 

Yeah, well, I'm, yeah I'm so sorry to hear that. And I guess it's, it's one of those things where grief, especially if you have consistent or semi-consistent exposure to it, I'm sure how you navigate it changes. Do you find that you kind of react less to it in self-preservation? Or is it just, yeah, as you say, moments where you can feel really defeated, or?  

 

Taija McLuckie  03:44 

I used to, I used to, I guess, ignore it, or like compartmentalise it, and like just tell myself like this is part of the job,  this is just, just what's going to happen, and that did not work out so great. Because then it just, like, comes out in other ways. What I think I've learned is the importance of going through all of the stages, like as they come, and it, it helps working in an environment and like, alongside other peers who can, like, can understand it and [be] supportive. Yeah, it's, it sucks. Uncomfortable feelings are the worst, but very necessary. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  04:32 

Because I imagine otherwise, then it's yeah, as you say it comes, comes out in other ways and if you bottle things, then it's more of an explosion when that emotion does finally, finally come out. But it's really struck me just over the course of these interviews that you've had multiple moments like this, just over this -- 

 

Taija McLuckie  04:55 

yeah --  

 

Caitlin Burritt  04:56 

short period of time and so that's, must be a lot to -- 

 

Taija  05:00 

I was thinking about that before we got on this call, I was like, "Man, I'm gonna get on there and tell her that, like, someone else died." And then how many more people are like doing this project and how many of them have come on and been like "someone else died?" We had, like, three community members die last week too. Yeah, that's a big topic around peer work for sure. And, and I think it makes it more challenging to navigate when there is that understanding of being a peer, rather than like, say someone who may not have the same, like, lived experience. There's just a different connection to it. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  05:41 

Mhmm. Yeah. And because it's, as you said, it's one of those things where it has come up in, in other interviews on this project as well. And it's work with such personal connections to people and community members. And yeah, just to keep going, you must have such a emotional strength to do it and as you say, the lived experience, to put it in context as well.  

 

Taija McLuckie  06:10 

Sometimes you just get tired of being, like, mad, but it's difficult not to be mad. There is, there's no reason that we should be in the position that we're in, and the, like, just the generation that we are destroying. It yeah, it doesn't make sense to me. And then, you know, like, I might not lose my life. But I also am going to have, like, a decade of this work behind me. And what does that do to like, my life expectancy, like that stress? And then how stress, you know, that plays a hand in, like dementia, and all these other neurological like, diseases or illnesses and, and then what does that do to my kids? Because of [indiscernible] preventable death? Like, everything kind of trickles down. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  07:12 

Do you ever feel almost a sense of survivor's guilt or anything when people pass away? 

 

Taija McLuckie  07:19 

I, not, so, I wouldn't say, like, survivor's guilt. But I think a lot about the place of privilege that I come from, and I mean, I know that we've, you know, talked about this, like, early on. If it was this hard for me to [navigate] this system, that's what I feel shitty about. I feel. Yeah. I don't know how to explain it, like, makes me, I get choked up. 

 

Taija McLuckie  07:45 

Yeah, like I'm fucking white, and have a good paying job and support from my family. I could never, like, my mom would never not let me come home. I ran away a few times. And for anyone else that is marginalised, like, what help is there if people don't just stop being so ignorant? Yes, I just don't feel like I, I don't know what to do. So I just keep doing the things. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  08:52 

But then my guess it's something to be said of, but you are doing something and you're part of a team that is taking action and doing it with good intentions and compassionately and I think the understanding through the lived experience is probably so important for people because at least it's, maybe part of the marginalisation is understood.  

 

Taija McLuckie  09:17 

Yeah, I think, just as like humans, in general, we, we don't really care about something unless we are shown how to care. So if you don't make like an emotional connection to something or like some sort of personal connection, then I don't, I think, then naturally that drive to help or support or whatever, then it just wouldn't be there. And I, I definitely think that having the experience that I've had makes me who I am, and you are right, there are lots of, lots of really good stories.  

 

Taija McLuckie  09:56 

Those are just hard to recall when you feel sad. So that's, kind of like what I meant when I was saying like, even if nothing comes of this, you've been like such a huge support, just by doing things like that, like bringing it back around. And, you know, reminding me that there's like a lot of really great situations and then people that I've been able to, like, see through whatever their goals are. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  10:24 

Yeah, well, thank you for saying that. But it's, you know, I think it's also it's really, it's driven by your stories and your experiences. And just for the project, you know, I really have been thinking about things that you've said, and just walking around where I live, of there's like a huge unhoused population downtown. And yeah, just through this project of now, there's certain things that I walk by and notice, and I'm like, "oh," and it's --  

 Taija McLuckie  10:54 

Welcome to the dark side.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  10:56 

Yeah. And it's, yeah, and it's really, it was visible before, but in a way, you really see how it has got to a point on Vancouver Island. And I mean, Vancouver is also another kettle of fish on its own. 

 

Taija McLuckie  11:13 

 Yes.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  11:13 

But yeah, just generations of inadequate supports for the type of work that you're doing. So it's, yeah, I can see how some days it's must just be like, "oh!"  

 

Taija McLuckie  11:26 

Yeah, I just want to like kick down doors, and be like, like, to any sort of like government or like, leading official, decision maker, I just want to go in and grab them all, by like, the scruff of their neck and be like, "You are coming with me" and like, just drag them here every single day, like zap strap them to a chair or something and being like "you are going to feel this." Because, yeah, like you said, the connection that like we've made through this changes how you look at things and I think that's really cool.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  12:04 

Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It just, it's, I can just, I can, I can see how it would, how you would feel that very strongly, or even just thinking back to when you were supposed to give that presentation to a bunch of health officials, and then completely went in a different direction with it. And that was also in in the wake of, of a passing, which is sad. But I imagine there was some catharsis there as well. 

 

Taija McLuckie  12:31 

Totally. Yeah. It, it felt like, not like it was meant to be. But that same sort of like connection, that what are the odds that something like this lines up with this? And how I struggled for like weeks to put that presentation together and then it led up to like, that peak moment. I thought it was quite beautiful. In obviously, the tragedy, but I. Yeah, yeah, there's been some very coincidental connections that have happened. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  13:03 

Yeah. And I think it's, it's, it's like an additional way of recognising the sadness that has happened and that those people were people who had lives that should have kept going. And I think, for friends that you have, like, a deeper connection with it must be even more difficult. But I feel like to even just acknowledge that there's, there's death within these communities that are so often not the people who would be getting an obituary in the papers or acknowledged, just community recognition.  

 

Taija McLuckie  13:40 

Yeah, yeah. 

 

Taija McLuckie  13:43 

Yeah, definitely doesn't. There was this, man. There's this person, business owner in Nanaimo. I don't know if you listen to the news at all. But he has started playing the Baby Shark theme song, after closing time, at his front entrance, so people stopped sleeping there.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  14:05 

Oh. 

 

Taija McLuckie  14:06 

Because I'm assuming it's covered. I haven't looked. I don't want to see what this idiot looks like. And like, oh, man, just idiots. And they're like, laughing about it on the radio, and like, oh, "look what this guy is doing." And I'm like, "displacing his own clients?" 

 

Caitlin Burritt  14:23 

Yeah,  

 

Taija McLuckie  14:24 

Get out of here, man. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  14:25 

So many layers to that.  

 

Taija McLuckie  14:27 

Yeah.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  14:28 

Yeah. But it's, again, it's one of those things that I think just based off all our conversations and just having been to Nanaimo a few times. I would like to be more surprised than I am.  

 

Taija McLuckie  14:43 

Oh, yeah. That's unfortunate too, people are just mean.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  14:48 

Yeah.  

 

Taija McLuckie  14:49 

Willful blindness is still blindness.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  14:52 

Yeah.  

 

Taija McLuckie  14:52 

I guess because I'm so far on my side of things that it's, I think becoming  increasingly more difficult to understand, like, shit like playing Baby Shark Song, like my tolerance for it kind of just keeps getting, like, chipped away?  

 

Caitlin Burritt  15:13 

Well, I think that's understandable because it just seems unnecessarily as you say, mean, because people are not hanging out in the doorway because they're having a great time. 

 

Taija McLuckie  15:27 

Yeah. There's nowhere for them to go, man, and it's pouring rain and it's freezing cold and it's probably one of the only covered areas. So, like, maybe we should not play the guy's, like the Baby Shark Song and laugh about it on the radio and is no one else thinking like, why these people were sleeping under there in the first place? And like, where that problem is stemming from? 

 

Caitlin Burritt  15:53 

Yeah, and then, as you say, to be treating it as a joke. I don't know if it's better or worse in that case, you're just not thinking about it as a radio announcer of what you're saying? Or if that's worse than being intentional. 

 

Taija McLuckie  16:08 

Yeah, I'm wondering who, 'cause this just came out yesterday, I think. So then this morning, it was like, on like, the main news. I'm wondering, I'm curious to see who the first, like, advocacy group, or like peer support group, or like something like Moms Stop The Harm. Like I, I'm curious to see who's gonna be the first to be like, "fuck you," because it's gonna happen, for sure. Yeah. I, this morning, we had a business owner. And they came to the back door. And like, cop knocked, like it was like [knocking sounds], like, so loud. And I was like, "Whoa, like, coming, chill." And then I open the door. And there, she's holding a page protector with a push pin in the top of it and on the bottom, there's a piece of tape that says like, "are you interested, ask any [bleeped] staff for more information."  

 

Taija McLuckie  17:07 

And what was in that slip was information on the monkey pox vaccine, and then where someone could go to get it. And so she's holding it up, [a] foot away from my face. She's like, "I just wanted to let you know that I found this pinned to the side of our building where someone was lighting fires." And I was like, "Kay? I don't, I don't really know what you want me to do. Is there a fire? Like, I didn't like the fire. I definitely don't condone someone lighting fires beside your building and I don't know what you want me to do about it." But she's like, "well, I just thought that I would bring this back." And I was like, "you don't have a garbage can?" Because it's , and she's like, well, "I thought maybe it could be reused." I was like, no you didn't, you want someone to blame. It ain't me. Like, do you feel threatened? Is this, like, someone trying to light your house on fire? Because you need to call the cops. But like maybe think why the fuck is this person lighting fires?  

Taija McLuckie  18:09 

Because they're freezing cold! There's nowhere for them to go. But yeah, all she could, like her goal was to be like, "Yep, this is [bleeped]'s fault and I'm gonna go tell them" like, excuse me, lady. We are, like, one of the very few agencies in town that are actually providing support to these people and trying to get more housing options, wrong door.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  18:34 

How did she respond to you when you put that --

 

Taija McLuckie  18:38 

back on her? 

 

Caitlin Burritt  18:40 

Yeah. 

 

Taija McLuckie  18:41 

Oh, it definitely didn't help the situation, she got, was more agitated --

 

Caitlin Burritt  18:46 

okay --


Taija McLuckie  18:46 
and then she just like, handed to me when I was like, "Okay, bye." She's like, "bye!" Storms away. Like, it's hard to react in those situations, because I'm supposed to be professional and but sometimes I'm like "you're an idiot..." Just... 

 

Caitlin Burritt  19:01 

Yeah, it's definitely, I have similar memories, but much lower stakes of work of retail jobs where people just, you're the cashier, I feel like if you are a woman or femme presenting, it's like even worse -- 

 

Taija McLuckie  19:19 

yeah -- 

 

Caitlin Burritt  19:19 

and they just start like, here's a punching bag --

 

Taija McLuckie  19:23 

yeah!  

 

Caitlin Burritt  19:23 

and I'm in a bad mood today and here is this. So, but --

 

Taija McLuckie  19:28 

yeah --

 

Caitlin Burritt  19:28 

sometimes if you kind of do that little pushback people get then, embarrassed, but also sometimes they do get agitated. So.  

 

Taija McLuckie  19:36 

I hope she felt embarrassed. I think she was looking. I think the reaction she was likely expecting was me being like, "oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'll go over there and clean it up." Like yeah, I think that that's what she was expecting. So I just didn't have the capacity this morning to like take care of her feelings and my feelings. So I just was like, "you don't have a garbage? That's what you should do with this." I just don't know why you think I'm the problem today. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  20:05 

Yeah and that's also completely, that is not part of your job description, it just the expectation of "I am mad --" 

 

Taija McLuckie  20:15 

mhmm -- 

 

Caitlin Burritt  20:15 

"so you have to deal with it." But it was obviously not enough of a fire to call the fire department, type of thing. And as you said, if someone is doing that, there's causation or --

 

Taija McLuckie  20:27 

A bigger reason.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  20:28 

Yeah. Do you find around the holidays, like New Years? Is it -- 

 

Taija McLuckie  20:35 

way worse --

 

Caitlin Burritt  20:36 

does stuff like that get worse?  

 

Taija McLuckie  20:38 

Oh, yeah. 

 

Taija McLuckie  20:39 

I think people just get stressed out in general about the holidays. And that was like, pre-economic disaster. And everyone, or most anyways are trying to survive in their own way. And I think there are extra stresses on everybody to just not lose their house, lose their job, can't afford to fix their car, like having families that everyone works in the family, like my mom should be retired, but she works full time. So my kids don't even really have that option to have. I mean, their, their dad's mom. She's like, fully retired. She's a bit older than my mom, though. So they do get to see them. But we're all like busting our ass to try to, like, stay afloat that we don't even, don't even have like family connection, and then having to arrange like holidays. And the weather has just been bananas, I think. Yeah, it gets to people. Yeah, holidays are hard.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  21:48 

Yeah, hard. And then even with within families, it can be tough to just get everybody if you're all working on the same window of time off. And then do you notice in, in the peer work as well? Is it a harder time for community members?  

 

Taija McLuckie  22:06 

Yeah, it's like another reminder that their family doesn't talk to [them] --

 

Caitlin Burritt  22:11 

yeah --

 

Taija McLuckie  22:11 

or they may have had, like, an expectation of going to see their family, but then they're like, the dope is just so fucking brutal right now that all of a sudden, they like sleep for like, three days, and then they miss that opportunity they had to see their child or their brother. And it's devastating, 'cause then they come in. And in like, the general population everyone is like "Merry Christmas," "Happy New Year," like, you know, "happy holidays," whatever you want to say. And then it's not like that, working like, within this, this population. It's really sad. And it's just their, like, month long reminder of how they don't have their kids or won't see their kids, or their family members, you know, [indiscernible] and, and then another, like validation of their unworthiness. That's, it's, it's hard to hear. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  23:11 

Yeah. Does that affect you going into your own holiday -- 

 

Taija McLuckie  23:16 

sometimes --

 

Caitlin Burritt  23:16 

season? 

 

Taija McLuckie  23:17 

Sometimes, I guess. Yeah. Depends on, I think, the situation, the day, like where I'm at. And so sometimes it can be harder. Some days are harder than others, for sure to sit and hear and listen, and, and, but I think that is human. There's this, like, some people in this field, I think, will practice these like, very rigid boundaries, which, like, your boundaries are everything. But I'm also not afraid, like part of like, my boundaries is I'm not afraid to cry when I'm sad. And clients have seen me cry. And when I'm not having a great day, and the client says like, "how are you today?" Like, I'll always be honest, and I think it's appreciated.  

 

Taija McLuckie  24:09 

I think that's why I've been able to, like, make such strong connections with this community. Because I'm not here. Like, I don't think I'm better than anyone else. And if I'm having a hard day, I should be able to say I'm having a really hard day today. And I have learned more, like, more skills from the days that I've been very honest about what's happening for me and in my life than I ever would have if I didn't share what I was going through with people. Like there was an instance last week where one of the clients came in, and we just like got to talking and he was talking about what he was like when he was a kid and it was almost identical to what I go through with my oldest son and I, and he would share, he was sharing with me how, like, he would just do these things, like, something would just make him so mad. And then he would like wreck things. And he'd say things and he's like, "and I always, like after I calm down," like say it was like an hour later. He's like, "I felt terrible about it."  

 

Taija McLuckie  25:16 

And I'm like, "Okay, if you have any suggestions, this is what I go through with my son," you know, so he just shared a few things with me. And it was amazing. So now I like understand this person at such a deeper level. Like, what if I run into this client, and he's having like, he's losing his mind over something. I now know how better to support him because of the suggestions that he offered. And all because I am not afraid to tell someone what I'm going through or how I'm feeling. I think there's a big gap that's missing.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  25:48 

Yeah, I was, I was going to ask you if that, if that approach helps you connect with the people that you're supporting. But obviously, it does. When you're having a bad day yourself and then you have to support other people, that's relatable experience in a way, just because of, I feel like everyone has had a friend or, or something where you're like, "Oh, I feel like garbage today. But you feel like more garbage than me. And what do I do?" And yeah, but obviously, there's a lot more factors going into it in a, in a professional setting. But there was initially a question in there, but I have lost it as I was talking. But yeah, but that's just it's, it's an incredible, I think story of, of relating to people and just -- 

 

Taija McLuckie  26:38 

and knowing that like, with the same like, understanding -- 

 

Caitlin Burritt  26:41 

yeah -- 

 

Taija McLuckie  26:42 

you know? Like, I guess, bringing it back to like, trying to figure out what the question was, in [there] --

 

Caitlin Burritt  26:47 

I know! 

 

Taija McLuckie  26:49 

having that lived experience, 

 

Caitlin Burritt  26:51 

and I guess too, as you said, using their own advice to then support them of it just really comes down to something was shared and, and you listened, and do you think that's one of your strengths, in your work?  

 

Taija McLuckie  27:07 

Yeah, I. Yeah. I mean, I just think you can find out what works for someone by asking, like just being direct about it. But I, that just to me, it creates like a divide, like a big divide. And because there's still like that professional boundary, but it's not my goal, to try to fix someone, or, like, I genuinely just want to know about them and I think you can learn a lot more from people, when you listen to their stories, and like, really pay attention. And it's so much more, I don't know, I think that the trust is a lot, like, that foundation of trust is just built so thoroughly when you can, like, just ask someone about their life,  how you can help them. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  28:01 

Yeah, the case of meeting someone where they're at, rather than telling them what to do. 

 

Taija McLuckie  28:08 

Mhmm. I really am just nosy. I just like to know all the things. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  28:17 

But you're using it to maximum effect for caring for people, so that's good. 

 

Taija McLuckie  28:25 

It's more fun that way too, to find out. Maybe not fun. Interesting, would be the word. It. Yeah, it takes. I think I take, like, the clinical professional feeling out of engaging, which I, I don't know. I like that, I obviously am a storyteller. So --  

 

Caitlin Burritt  28:44 

yeah -- 

 

Taija McLuckie  28:45 

I mean, that's just, I kind of do my job the way that is the most natural to me.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  28:52 

Yeah, I was gonna say, you prefer a more intuitive approach.  

 

Taija McLuckie  28:56 

Yeah.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  28:57 

But I think that's so interesting, because there's a lot of range between peers, someone else I was talking to, for this project. They like very clear work and not-work boundaries. So it's, it's interesting to hear both sides of it. 

 

Taija McLuckie  29:11 

I think my like, work and not work boundaries would be, those are, for me anyways, they're more like, I don't, would never give out my personal phone number. Or let someone use my cell phone, like, if the phone wasn't working. People don't know where I live. Actually, that's not true. I had a client walk by me one time when I was standing outside of my townhouses, because we can't smoke on the property, so. But it was okay. But I don't tell anyone, where I live. I don't add clients to Facebook, like, those types of things. You know, I don't deal with situations like, after work and I try to keep myself as safe that way, by keeping like, my personal life in, yeah. Like, I wouldn't take anyone in my car, I would find an alternative way, which is really hard when you see a client hitchhiking, and you know you're going the same direction. But I just can't because if I do it for one person, I have to do it for everybody.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  30:15 

Yeah. I'm sure, like, a lot to be mindful of in your day-to-day. And just because obviously, you have your life outside of peer work as well, where you're in your city, seeing people, so. Is that hard to turn off that switch sometimes?  

 

Taija McLuckie  30:33 

Um, so not that it's hard. Like, if I see clients out, at like the mall, or whatever and they want to say hello, then, like, I don't care. I will totally, like, sit and chat. But I, if someone comes to me outside of, like, me working, and they're like, "Oh, my God, I need help with this, and blah, blah, blah". And then [I'd] be like, "Hey, I'm at work tomorrow, at 9am happy to support you then. Right now, I'd like to finish the dollar store with my kid." So, and if they're pissed off, it's not about me. It's just because of the situation that they're in. So yeah. I think the one of the most challenging ways that, 'cause I've been supporting the street outreach team, and it is like entirely peer-led and coordinated by people who use drugs. And, but the coordinator of it, like, him and I are like, friends, and the like, everyone in this, like, who I work with here.  

 

Taija McLuckie  31:35 

We consider him like a colleague, and he just 'casue he's been running this programme out of here for a while. And so like, he can come in the building, but like, we leave him alone. There's no like, it's literally feels like he's an employee, we treat him as if, and so when I'm, if I'm out with him, then that gets difficult sometimes to navigate. Where I have to, like, either remove myself from like a situation because we're not, not living the same life. But yeah, that's where it can be, where it kinda of sucks, where I have to be like, "Oh, I gotta go. I unfortunately can not be associated with this moment." So yeah, but it's necessary.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  32:22 

Yeah. To.  

 

Taija McLuckie  32:23 

I'm just looking at the time.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  32:25 

Yes. Do you have any final final thoughts for today? 

 

Taija McLuckie  32:29 

Grief is weird. And everyone is unique, and so be nice to people. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  32:36 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast, to listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.