
Unsilencing Stories
Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller communities in B.C. and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal opioid overdose. The project was facilitated by Aaron Goodman, Ph.D., faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, B.C., and student researchers, Jenna Keeble and Ashley Pocrnich.
In this phase, we’re sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of B.C. The B.C. Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as “support services and strategies” that aim to keep people safe and minimize death, disease, and injury from high risk behaviour.”
Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers, including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in B.C. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face, including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing, and stressors at work.
We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face
The podcast is part of a research study led by Aaron Goodman and conducted under the auspices of the Chancellor’s Chair Award. Several researchers, including Caitlin Burritt, Chloe Burritt, and Giorgia Ricciardi, and a number of student research assistants played key roles in the study, and you’ll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Unsilencing Stories
Taija McLuckie: Episode 8: RCMP Encounter & Triggers
In this episode, Taija McLuckie tells Caitlin Burritt and Ashley White about a recent interaction with an RCMP officer. She discusses the way the experience made her feel triggered and the support she received from our coworkers. Taija also explains the way policing effects access to local peer-led services and the repercussions that talking with police can have for people who use drugs.
Glossary:
Brave COOP: The cooperative of people responsible for creating the Brave Sensor
Brave Sensor: An Overdose Detection tool for public bathrooms
CAT: Community Action Team
Decriminalization: A three year pilot project which began on January 31, 2023,which exempts adults carrying small amounts of illicit drugs from being subject to arrest or criminal charges.
Downtown Eastside: The Downtown Eastside is a neighbourhood in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, known for having a large unhoused population, many of whom are affected by substance use disorder.
Mobile Response Team: An outreach team in Taija’s community, created to support frontline workers during the Opioid Crisis
Moms Stop The Harm: A network of Canadian families impacted by substance-use-related harms and deaths, which advocates to end substance use related stigma, harms and death.
NA: Narcotics Anonymous
Naloxone: A medicine that rapidly reverses an opioid overdose.
OAT: Opioid agonist therapy
VIHA: Vancouver Island Health Authority (also referred to as Island Health)
This episode was recorded on December 31, 2022.
Caitlin Burritt 00:02
Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016, according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers also known as peers in different parts of BC.
Caitlin Burritt 00:29
The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper, they outlined significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing, and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.
Caitlin Burritt 01:08
Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose, death, grief, trauma, and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's chair award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Caitlin Burritt 01:42
In this episode, Taija McLuckie tells Caitlin Burritt and Ashley White about a recent interaction with an RCMP officer. She discusses the way the experience made her feel triggered and the support she received from our coworkers. Taija also explains the way policing effects access to local peer-led services and the repercussions that talking with police can have for people who use drugs.
Caitlin Burritt 02:01
Um --
Taija McLuckie 02:03
that's funny --
Caitlin Burritt 02:04
so, starting off on a strong note there. Yeah. So last week, we were talking about different experiences you had during treatment and how the different types of treatment centres that you encountered and how some of them you found to be better than others, and also financial expectations of them, as well as, also that they have behavioural expectations as well. And then you also at the very end of the episode, were talking about how the street outreach team for their garbage pickups just got bikes. And that was very exciting. Yeah. So is there anything you want to revisit on any of those topics? Or has anything been on your mind this week?
Taija McLuckie 02:57
Not really. I, I actually, I was thinking about, you know, what we were going to talk about today. And I actually had like a fairly chill, like, weekend. And I don't know how many weeks that we've been doing this now? But it's been a long time since I have, like, had something already kind of that I've thought about or something that I experienced over, like, the week and yeah. I mean, last week was a crazy week. We, I had an RCMP. Did I, did that happen after I talked to you guys last week?
Caitlin Burritt 03:36
I think it must have happened after because, yeah, you, you had mentioned trying to get the RCMP involved in your, in a, during a treatment experience and then they wouldn't, but I, that was the last.
Taija McLuckie 03:51
Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, this was at work last week. And a client came in to access the services and I, and then just like, shortly after that, a cop came in. And I also like, immediately, because of my own interactions, like with the police, being like, on the side where they're like wanting to talk to you or being on the side where I'm, like, trying to support or defend like a client and, or like another peer. And so I, I'm anxious and, and he just goes 'Hi,' as he like walks through the door, like super loud, like, intentional. And I noticed he's holding a piece of paper. And so I think 'shit,' like is he coming in here for this person? And typically they don't come inside here because we are exempt because of our drug checking and so they avoid it.
Taija McLuckie 04:52
So, he's standinng there and given the history that I know of this peer and his interaction with the RCMP, I don't want him to, like, be a target when he walks out of here. And so I just grabbed him, like, a snack bag. And he could see, like this peer could see like, how like, tense I am. And he's like, 'Okay, well I'll...' And then I look at the cop, and I was like, 'Is there something I can help you with?' And he was like, 'Oh, I'm looking for um, Taija?' And it really pissed me off that he put a question mark at the end of my name, because we've definitely met and we've definitely interacted and I just thought, like, 'fuck you.' But I was like, 'That's me.' And now I'm like, really nervous, because I'm one, super triggered from being looked for before, and like, two, I think, what did I do?
Taija McLuckie 05:51
And, and then he, the cop goes, right in front of this person accessing the service, 'oh, it's just a subpoena.' And I was like, 'okay,' and the client, he was like, 'you know, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna step outside. I'm just gonna give you guys some privacy.' And I thought like 'man, that is not how that should have gone.' Yeah, it was very, let's say, unprofessional, it doesn't even like, he just, he broke my confidentiality. He skipped a step and he just disregarded the work that I do. And yeah, so he gave me, the client leaves and then I opened like the main door, take the piece of paper, he explains the situation. I'm being subpoenaed to be a witness to an assault and then that that was it. And he's like, 'if you have any questions, call this number or the crown' or whatever.
Taija McLuckie 06:53
Yeah, I was super stressed, like, the rest of the day. And like, couldn't really, like, pinpoint it, where it was like coming from. I haven't been, like, triggered like that. I'm like, thinking about like, what is the, who is this client gonna go talk to? And who is this peer gonna go tell? And then now it's 'Taija's talking to the cops,' which, like, this level, that's not a good thing. So now my safety is threatened and my like, mental well-being. I was a mess after.
Caitlin Burritt 07:26
Yeah, I would imagine that, sort of, on the ranks of people that you would come into contact with in, in peer work, probably cops are on the more uncomfortable side of interaction sometimes, just because of their whole structural setup.
Taija McLuckie 07:43
Mhmm.
Caitlin Burritt 07:44
And so, that is, just for them to totally?
Taija McLuckie 07:48
Disheartening?
Caitlin Burritt 07:49
Yeah. Well, disheartening, but I also don't feel as surprised as I would want to, you know. Did you carry that interaction? Did you think about it for the rest of the week? How, how recently was that in the --
Taija McLuckie 08:08
that was on Wednesday and, again, fortunately, I work for a place that just has like such a strong team and support and understanding of, like, peer workers. And an understanding of someone having a history of substance use typically comes with negative interactions with the RCMP. And I was met with a tonne of support. So the coordinator for our programme, she called the manager who was just such, like a rockstar of like, getting on the phone with me and then finding out like, you know, what I need? And, like, I went home that night, and I was so angry, because I just thought, like, how, how does someone hold that RCMP officer and like our local detachment? How do we hold that process and them accountable for what they've just done? And, and I just didn't know what else to do except for, like, start Googling.
Taija McLuckie 09:23
But yeah, I was just, I was mostly angry all night. And then I drove my kids to school the next morning. The highway was like a sheet of ice. There was like a bunch of cars in the ditch. So now I'm already like, heightened, didn't sleep well, the night before and I come into work and I just looked at, like, my coordinator and I was like, 'I am not okay for like, so many reasons.' And, and she was like, 'what do you need?' And I was like, 'you know, I just, I don't want to go home because I don't want to be alone. I'm like spiralling in my thoughts, but I know that I'm not going to support or be able to support another peer responsibly. Like, with where I'm at.'
Taija McLuckie 10:12
Yeah, my, the rest of that day turned around a bit after I talked to like, the Mobile Response Team, and then talked to the manager again. We made like a safety plan around who's involved and myself and any services until then. I definitely would not have gotten through that as well or as successfully, if it wasn't for the whole team, like, shouldering up.
Caitlin Burritt 10:40
Yeah, which is so important. Because, as you say, sometimes when you're just Googling and situations like that, it's like when you Google, 'why don't I feel well?' It's --
Taija McLuckie 10:50
mhmm --
Caitlin Burritt 10:50
like, you know. It's like, it's because you're going to die. It's, it can lead --
Taija McLuckie 10:55
yeah --
Caitlin Burritt 10:55
to further spiraling and --
Taija McLuckie 10:59
yeah, totally.
Caitlin Burritt 11:02
Yeah, I'm sure too, as as you mentioned, if you have a history, and a past with interactions with the RCMP, as even the thought of say, like filing a complaint, I would imagine there's, there's weight to that. And are you comfortable discussing some of your history with RCMP? Or is it?
Taija McLuckie 11:23
You know, one of the main, what really got me in this circumstance was not that I, like, felt threatened. But I, my mom, she always like, thought that I was, she always thought that I was dead. So having, I've had the RCMP like, do like, checks on me before and it's because I, like, wouldn't answer her phone call because I was high and like, hadn't slept in a few days. So I, yeah, I would just like, avoid and like, during my substance use, I would like, if I like, hadn't slept for like a few days, I would get like, super paranoid, and I would just like keep 911 dialed on my phone.
Taija McLuckie 12:10
But then eventually, like, I would fall asleep. And I, but I didn't feel comfortable, unless I like, I don't know. I guess I thought my reaction time I'd be able to like, hit the call button. But I always ended up hitting it when I was, as I was falling asleep. So you can imagine they didn't... So I like called the cops on [myself], unintentionally. But just like being checked on. So I went to a place of feeling like I'm bad. I did something bad. So I think that's what really like, triggered. Yeah, I just, [indiscernible] I just felt judged, shamed. Yeah, it was weird.
Caitlin Burritt 12:47
Yeah, and I think you've definitely spoken about before how you can carry those feelings and then from a more of a stigma perspective, they can also be coming in from the outside. So I don't know if they necessarily met in that moment with that interaction. But it, just to then also have someone totally, as you said, disregard your, your right to privacy and announce it to the whole space of, I can see why that would be a very upsetting moment in your day.
Taija McLuckie 13:17
Yeah, it was. It was just ignorant. And yeah, I was. Yeah, it was just inconsiderate, ignorant. I don't know. It's super, it's unfortunate, because there are like quite a few new RCMP, like newish in the last like year or two. And, like, younger, just easier to have conversation and, and not just like power tripping, when you have to deal with them. So but unfortunately, what this officer did that just, that's what adds to like, the cancel culture and like, defund the police and all the things. I mean, I'm all for like less enforcement. I don't think it helps. And it, it's been better, but yeah, just lately in the last like two weeks, so I will be writing a formal complaint and then also requesting a meeting with our detachment and then just a couple supports.
Caitlin Burritt 14:19
Is that, sort of, were you able to come to that decision, sort of, once you had the team rally around you in support? Was it hard to make that choice? But then you'd also said, you know, you were very angry in the, the moment. So I'm sure wanting to defend yourself in that way as well.
Taija McLuckie 14:39
Oh, that night, like when I got off work, it took everything inside of me not to stop and then just storm into that detachment and be like 'constable fucking ignorant!' like just start, like just call him out in front of his peers. I'm really glad I chose not to, though. That really wouldn't have gotten me anywhere. I kind of came to that conclusion of like, finally doing all the things. I like, day, the next day. And I went kind of in that direction by starting out the conversations with my team, just saying, like, 'I don't know what to do, but I know what just happened was not right.' Like just that feeling of, like, being violated.
Caitlin Burritt 15:26
Yeah, and kind of the casualness of the confidence on, on that person's end to just walk into a space and announce like that. As you said, it would have probably had a very different outcome, if you had done the same behaviour back to them by walking into his place of work. And I think that really, really illustrates the power imbalance and where police officers are on that sort of scale.
Taija McLuckie 15:55
Yeah. And it just, it really sucks for like, the good ones. And the ones that do their jobs, like, they do their due diligence, and they follow like, the right procedures and, and, you know, do their job with integrity, because there are lots of them. But unfortunately, it just takes, like, one to decide to skip a step for that to kind of like overshadow all, like, all the ones that are at least fucking trying.
Caitlin Burritt 16:23
Yeah, and what is the relationship between the community and the, and the detachment? I mean, that's a big question. Have you noticed that the, there are people that are making more of an effort? Or is it pretty consistent in, in the mistrust between, between groups?
Taija McLuckie 16:45
Hmm, you know, if this was like, the summer time, maybe, I would have said that there's been like, some significant improvements. Especially with like, the younger crowd of enforcement coming in. But I've been wildly disappointed over the last couple of weeks. Yeah, just like doing like, you know, they can't go into like a church, for example. Like if it's being, because it's like a safe place. And so instead of going in the church, you know, they like sit in the back in their cars and start to pull people aside before they get on to the church property for like our overnight shelter, like our emergency weather [one].
Taija McLuckie 17:30
And they just have no idea like the repercussions for somebody, because now this person, or whoever they like, pull aside and they're sitting there talking for a few minutes will, no matter what this person says, that person is now a rat. No one's gonna trust them. And now they're like, exiled. And when it's freezing cold outside, like, the risk is death for some of these people. And all because they, just they want to, I don't know, I guess do their job. But don't shoot fish in a barrel, man. It's not a fair fight.
Caitlin Burritt 18:02
Yeah. And as you said, it further isolates people from the community that they already have.
Taija McLuckie 18:10
That's isolated. Yeah,
Caitlin Burritt 18:13
sSorry. Go ahead.
Taija McLuckie 18:14
Oh, yeah. No, I was just gonna kind of just reiterate that. Yeah. It's just ignorant, selfish, it's, there's so much harm that it trickles down from the abuse of power.
Caitlin Burritt 18:26
As you said, it's the going to the safe spaces and just waiting, it's really not a necessary step for people who are just trying to go inside from the snow, and things like that.
Taija McLuckie 18:39
Well and what it takes to support a shelter like that and it's also like a peer, like a peer-led shelter. So the, there's always like a staff member on site, but it's the people who are also supporting the programme throughout the night, like are people who use drugs and who this is like meaningful employment to them. And it takes a long time to get these things, like, put together and funding and just like, securing staff and even like, finding a place is that anyone will even have you with this population. And then to go and set up shop, like right outside, and then expect people to go back there like, fuck, man.
Caitlin Burritt 19:30
Yeah, that's a good point as well. It tarnishes the safe space that people have put so much time into building and I'm sure there's, there's always pushback to opening anything like that. Finding a location that will go for it is always difficult. I'm South Island, but anytime something tries to open, there's always people who are like, 'I like the idea, but why is it in my neighbourhood type of thing?'
Taija McLuckie 19:55
Yeah.
Caitlin Burritt 19:56
Similar.
Taija McLuckie 19:57
Yeah. Yeah. It's a, a lot of folks don't know their rights either. They don't know that they don't have to give their name to a police officer, they don't know that they can end the conversation. If it's not, like if they're, it's not leading to like an arrest or, or if there's no, they don't know what their legal rights are. And they also don't know what, like, when an RCMP officer is abusing those rights. And if they did, I don't even know if most of the folks would stand up to the cop and, and say, 'I don't have to give you any, any information. And I'm gonna keep walking.' Because then what does that mean for that person, the next time they interact with the RCMP? It's not going to turn out so great for them.
Caitlin Burritt 20:40
Mhmm. I think that makes a lot of sense. It's the combination of the difference in power, and then also, of probably just wanting it to be, if it has to be a conversation, as smooth as possible and is over with as quickly as possible. That's a very good point as well of, I feel like just in general, your rights of how to engage with the police and what the limits are. They're not super prevalent if you're not Googling them.
Taija McLuckie 21:06
And even if you do Google them, trying to understand them, navigate it, like, our government website, and for the RCMP, and it is a mess, like, you cannot find any answers to anything directly. It's like, you gotta go here. And then you got to remember that you were here. And then while you're over here, and over here, and then these two over here, and, but if you skip a step, this is the only time that you can make a complaint. They, they make it impossible,
Caitlin Burritt 21:35
That's having access to the website and some, a little bit of time to work on it. So if you're just focusing on trying to get warm, would be so difficult. And yeah, is there any efforts to have peers or mental health professionals do work with the RCMP to engage in dealing with the community? I've heard of projects where they're trying to, like, have the police respond less to mental health calls and stuff like that, but I'm not 100% sure on which parts of the island or mainland it's, it's going. Do you know of anything like that? Or do you think it would help?
Taija McLuckie 22:18
Oh, it would help for sure. The difficult, like the transition in that is, you have RC, you have to have willing RCMP or willing cops to, to take on peers, or some sort of engagement, [and] without the stigma. And then you also have to find a group of peers that, you know, don't say like "fuck police." You have to find peers that aren't going to be triggered or if they are triggered, they're in a space where they can say that they are, like, you've got two very hurt groups of people who have some healing to do. But unless you find enough who are willing, that's where the challenge lies.
Caitlin Burritt 23:02
Yeah. And it just, it makes me think of a few conversations ago, Ashley, you brought up a point, where it was like, being on communities, like, to reestablish the trust and things like that. Where it should probably be more on the end of the side that has abused that trust more often. So I imagine that is probably a very big barrier, as well, as you say, of just finding people that are in that position of power, who are willing to give a little bit of it up to be more supportive.
Taija McLuckie 23:34
Well, and we have to remember too, that most people who use drugs don't want to be criminalised for using drugs, because it's not a choice. And then you have RCMP where it's their job to follow the law, regardless of what the law says. It's still their job. So I imagine how conflicting that would be for for a cop and I know there's going to be people listening that are going to be like, 'who cares what they think?' But there's still, there's still two very different understandings trying to meet at the same table. And, yeah, when it's someone's job, I don't know, you just you follow the rules of your job, doesn't mean that rules can't be changed with enough people.
Taija McLuckie 24:24
I guess we just got to start having conversations, which I'm part of this next, like, step is we have been talking a while, myself and the other peers on the Community Action Team, about just community engagement. And I think this situation, as crappy as it was just, it provides an opportunity to just get at the table with them and just start having these conversations. It's important that they understand. Yeah, but sometimes the things that they have, like, abuse of power has a significant effect on people. Because and not just like me and my feelings and whatever, like, my history is that I clearly need to look at. But it affected my ability to be a mother, so that my kids have to deal with that. And they're, I think everyone can understand the idea of that, like, there are certain moments in your childhood that you that you just remember. And sometimes you're like, I don't even know why I remember that one time.
Ashley White 25:30
Mhmm
Taija McLuckie 25:31
And I don't, I don't know if, you know, last week is like one of those nights where I just was angry. And like, it was like, in, indirectly directed at them, like not putting their toys away or something, and I'm like, "You guys never clean up!" Like, maybe that's gonna be one of the things that they remember. I don't know and that's not fair. That pisses me off.
Caitlin Burritt 25:54
Yeah, well, I was gonna say, how does, I guess? How does it make you feel on a couple of levels of that A) it trickled into other areas of your life because you were upset? But then also, that I think you've, you've spoken before of being in a place in your life where you can take the hits for other peers, sometimes, when people are maybe speaking inappropriately or not treating with the respect that's deserved and you can kind of bring it up. Does that feel like what this is, in terms of that? It's an opportunity, but it's still something that it really affected you as well. How does that make you feel?
Taija McLuckie 26:31
Yeah, it does feel a lot like that. My coordinator, she laughed last week. And she was like, "Oh, thanks for taking another one for the team, Taija." There's just more emotion behind it. This time, this time, it. It always feels a bit personal. But this time, it's like, strictly personal. It is like the mama bear in me is coming out. I, I also fought so hard to get my kids back, that whenever there's like a little bit of a threat, or what I perceive as a threat, I just want to rip their face off. Not my kids, cop.
Taija McLuckie 27:24
And yeah, it threaten my safety, my, at my place of work, my relationship with that client, my relationship with this community and as a peer myself that, like, trust is so hard to establish and then maintain. And I work really hard at my, my relationships with other peers. Like it genuinely upsets me that this may have some effect on my ability to support.
Caitlin Burritt 28:06
Yeah, the repercussions that you were not prepared for, necessarily, in the moment. And then also, yeah, I'm sure it's justlike, "why? why was it me in this moment?" Yeah.
Taija McLuckie 28:22
Yeah, this one I could, I could have passed on. But I, I don't know, I think there has not been a hit that I have taken that hasn't seemed to have some positive effect, or make some sort of change. So maybe, because this one hurts so much it'll be like a huge change.
Caitlin Burritt 28:55
Fingers crossed, but also, you know, just sorry that you had to had to take such a big hit in that. In that moment. Yeah, just glancing at our time because of our technical issues.
Taija McLuckie 29:12
Technical?
Caitlin Burritt 29:13
Our technical non-issues in the front. Of, we've got about five minutes left? Is there any last point you want to finish on?
Taija McLuckie 29:28
I don't know. I guess. Just like a, pro tip of the day like don't abuse your privilege.
Caitlin Burritt 29:38
Yeah, that's, that's a good soundbite to end on.
Caitlin Burritt 29:47
That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast, to listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.