
Unsilencing Stories
Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller communities in B.C. and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal opioid overdose. The project was facilitated by Aaron Goodman, Ph.D., faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, B.C., and student researchers, Jenna Keeble and Ashley Pocrnich.
In this phase, we’re sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of B.C. The B.C. Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as “support services and strategies” that aim to keep people safe and minimize death, disease, and injury from high risk behaviour.”
Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers, including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in B.C. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face, including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing, and stressors at work.
We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face
The podcast is part of a research study led by Aaron Goodman and conducted under the auspices of the Chancellor’s Chair Award. Several researchers, including Caitlin Burritt, Chloe Burritt, and Giorgia Ricciardi, and a number of student research assistants played key roles in the study, and you’ll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Unsilencing Stories
Taija McLuckie: Episode 6: Housing Insecurity & Support at Work
In this episode, Taija Mcluckie talks with Caitlin Burritt about housing insecurity and the amount of work she has to do outside of her main job to support herself. Taija also speaks about how supportive the organisation she works for is towards peer workers and how feeling valued at work makes her feel motivated.
Glossary:
Brave COOP: The cooperative of people responsible for creating the Brave Sensor
Brave Sensor: An Overdose Detection tool for public bathrooms
CAT: Community Action Team
Decriminalization: A three year pilot project which began on January 31, 2023,which exempts adults carrying small amounts of illicit drugs from being subject to arrest or criminal charges.
Downtown Eastside: The Downtown Eastside is a neighbourhood in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, known for having a large unhoused population, many of whom are affected by substance use disorder.
Mobile Response Team: An outreach team in Taija’s community, created to support frontline workers during the Opioid Crisis
Moms Stop The Harm: A network of Canadian families impacted by substance-use-related harms and deaths, which advocates to end substance use related stigma, harms and death.
NA: Narcotics Anonymous
Naloxone: A medicine that rapidly reverses an opioid overdose.
OAT: Opioid agonist therapy
VIHA: Vancouver Island Health Authority (also referred to as Island Health)
This episode was re-recorded on June 5, 2023.
Caitlin Burritt 00:02
Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016, according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers also known as peers in different parts of BC.
Caitlin Burritt 00:29
The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.
Caitlin Burritt 01:08
Please note this podcast contains information about substance use overdose death, grief, trauma, and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project a number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study, and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Caitlin Burritt 01:42
In this episode, Taija Mcluckie talks with Caitlin Burritt about housing insecurity and the amount of work she has to do outside of her main job to support herself. Taija also speaks about how supportive the organisation she works for is towards peer workers and how feeling valued at work makes her feel motivated.
Caitlin Burritt 01:57
So to pivot a little bit, I guess, into the, the re-record, the one we were going to re-record, it was about housing. It was talking about some of the practicum students that had been coming through and also what it was like working basically through lock down as a, as a peer, but also just in light of your new position. Do you want to talk about that at all, of how that changes? How you're looking forward to it, of becoming a part time peer coordinator?
Taija McLuckie 02:32
Yeah. I think, am I reading the right one, the like the facing housing challenges --
Caitlin Burritt 02:41
mhmm, yeah --
Taija McLuckie 02:42
multiple factors and then pay.
Caitlin Burritt 02:45
But if you want to start with, sort of start from that point, I can just open with that initial question. And we can see where it goes from there?
Taija McLuckie 02:54
Yeah, I think the housing thing is still pretty, still relevant.
Caitlin Burritt 02:59
Pull that up and set you up for that. Yeah. So the question leads with do you currently face housing challenges or have, have you ever faced them in the past?
Taija McLuckie 03:11
I. I definitely have, I wouldn't say housing challenges, like at the moment, but definitely insecurity and knowing that if I am not always on, and I'm not working all of the time, in order to sustain being able to afford just like the basic cost of living, that is unnerving for sure. I think, since the last time that we had this conversation, I know I mentioned, you know, with how the rising costs of things, and how it just feels impossible. Although in my role, I actually make quite a significant amount of money compared to most, compared to what most peer harm reduction workers are paid. I think that more, more I guess like, business owners or like nonprofit organisations, more agencies should really take a look at the model that [bleeped] has. It. Yeah, yeah, I think I'm quite fortunate. But that doesn't take away from, you know, working paycheck to paycheck.
Caitlin Burritt 04:33
Yeah and probably even since the first time that we had this conversation that the costs have gone up again, even compared to the fall, which feels crazy, but. How would you say that [bleeped]'s model, how has it helped you in that way to, to be a little bit maybe more secure than you've felt in the past?
Taija McLuckie 04:58
My initial. My wage starting was a $4 increase from what I was making at my previous employment, and more or less, comparing the role of a community support worker or community facilitator, compared to a harm reduction support worker, like our, our tasks were, that were pretty even keel. I think that when you invest in your employees, what they will produce for you will come back tenfold, especially when you're, when you're a nonprofit, your statistics and your, the grind that you put in every year that you have to submit, in order to get more funding, when someone feels motivated to do that work, and then also to go the extra mile and they feel valued. That's what's going to just provide more programming, and just like the well-being of it, of another human being. Yeah, it's quite a contrast. So.
Caitlin Burritt 06:08
Yeah, I would say that, that's a really good point, especially, especially in the nonprofit sector, which I feel like a lot of people who go into working in nonprofit type of zones are usually pretty passionate about the work that they're doing to start with. But I think sometimes that passion can be hard to maintain, if you're not feeling adequately compensated for the work that you're doing. And especially when it's challenging work, and I think you've been really open about you love the challenge, you take a lot of joy in your job --
Taija McLuckie 06:42
you still need a pat on the back.
Caitlin Burritt 06:44
Exactly.
Taija McLuckie 06:45
You know, you still want someone to tell you that you're doing a good job, and then reward you for it. It's the kind of the same thing that we do with with children, it's like, it's not just like that, that act isn't just secluded to children, adults like it too. I'm a huge fan of like, even just a high five, I love a good high five, I think that when when you high five somebody, that person doesn't associate that high five, with whatever it is they just accomplished, they immediately associate it with like they're good, or they've done a good job as like a human being. And so even something like as simple as that, you can't be, can't just have people like with their nose on the grind, and then and then expect them just to continue to show up that way.
Taija McLuckie 07:37
And for me, I, I'm sure I've said this a million times. I love what I do, I love going to work. I very much, like, despise if I have to miss work if like, my kid is sick. And obviously I care about my kids and I want to take care of them. I. Yeah, my cup is filled at work. So it is a beautiful thing to also be valued and understood and heard. And, and because of that, I think our community is is benefiting through through some of the opportunities that I've been able to bring, just because of dopamine.
Caitlin Burritt 08:17
Yeah, well, you were just just mentioning too, in your upcoming shift you're taking of, you now will have a couple of dedicated days where you can work from your own house. You can do, it sounds like almost more outreach-based projects. How does it feel to be able to have the, I guess, the stability that can come from that type of setup of being able to work more on your own time, then? I think you mentioned, have mentioned previously that you used to do graveyard shifts and stuff like that, which is the opposite of working on your own time. And just yeah, how has that made a difference for you?
Taija McLuckie 08:56
This, the opportunity that my programme coordinator and the manager of the [bleeped] location, the opportunity that they have presented to me is just another, like, testament to how considerate and how, like, future thinking [bleeped] is and how we truly are such a family. And I have been, I'm sure they've been watching me try to navigate working a full time job Monday to Friday. I have my kids six, seven weeks at a time. Their dad only gets home, he's home. I mean, just recently he's only been home for like two and a half weeks. And so doing that and then with my kids and their sports, and also supporting a drug user group and then I'm doing work for Brave and I do the podcast and all of these things that I do outside of my working hours or within, like my one hour break, I'm cramming as much stuff as I can, because I really want to help this community, and then to have that recognised, and them just in the background, trying to find a solution on how do we keep Taija here and support her in this role, because the harm reduction role needs to be fulfilled, and with like a full mindset.
Taija McLuckie 10:28
But we don't want to take her away from community, and so to collaborate with, with our local community action team, just to see if that was a possibility, and to have all of them on board, what a gift. They could have said, 'Taija, you need to focus on harm reduction, this is what we hired you for. This is the way that it is,' you know, they could have gone about it in that way. And it wouldn't have produced anything, I probably just would have been sad. And yeah, and so to be offered this opportunity is, it should be offered more often, to more people who have this drive, I think we would see greater change, if we just fostered the gifts that people have.
Caitlin Burritt 11:17
Yeah, and I think too, it's a very, it's a realistic view, I think for them to take as well, because I feel like it's, because of the way that the economy is right now. So many people are working outside of just one job, whether it is in advocacy, or just bringing in some extra revenue because of, the cost of living has, has surged so much. So it's yeah, it's --
Taija McLuckie 11:44
Insane.
Caitlin Burritt 11:44
Yeah, just, it's really nice to hear that, instead of doubling down on, 'this is our expectation for you in this role' that they're giving you opportunities to expand into into other areas that you're passionate about. That's really cool.
Taija McLuckie 12:00
You know, and I, I never feel like I used to. I used to feel as if I was constantly being told to, like, to stay in my lane, to, 'this is a part of your job, this is what you do, stay in your lane, sit down, be quiet,' you know, 'here's your job description.' And that just isn't me. And I, and I think that's why I was hired. Because I really believe I was hired for like who I am as a person. And what, what this is going to do as well like for [bleeped] even, is, is provide like the the agency as a whole to, for me to like bring in new opportunities.
Taija McLuckie 12:47
I think that we, we all shoulder up with each other and support each other in every way that we can. And this also gives someone else an opportunity, one of our casual, actually only have one casual harm reduction support worker that's available right now. And it gives him an opportunity to, to come into this line of work. He hasn't done this before. He is brilliant, and he is young. And we need more people like him. So to be able to provide him with two consistent days a week to get to know our clients and, and to get to know the staff and the way that just, like, the vibe is around there. It also helps them out too.
Caitlin Burritt 13:32
Yeah. Which is, is great that the circle kind of feeds itself in that way. And would you say that having such a solid team is maybe not a full stop, but can be a buffer against some of the stressors sometimes, because you know, you have a really solid crew of people that you can get that support from when it feels like things are piling up?
Taija McLuckie 13:55
Oh, yeah. A 100%. I know that I can go to anyone in the location that I'm at. And, you know, talk about the off day that I'm having, or ask for support. Even though I'm the only person in my role, I know that I can go to any one of them. And just even if I, like, need to go for a walk around the block, or, you know, there's certain clients that we've lost that have had a like, significant impact on me, it, to the point where I don't want to go home and be alone. I just want to sit in the back and, you know, make drug kits and shit. I just want to, like, I want to be there. That's where I feel safe. That's where I know, there's not going to be any judgement. And we just do that for each other. I couldn't do or I couldn't have accomplished any of the things that I have without the support of this family. So it takes the stress off a little bit. Sometimes it just depends.
Caitlin Burritt 15:05
Yeah, I think for just jobs, no stress is ever going to completely disappear and especially in a case where the stakes are, can be very high in, in harm reduction work. So and as you said, it can be community losses, dealing with other organisations, or the more bureaucratic side of [it] would be frustrating. It's good to hear that it's a solid core that you can lean on for support and yeah, and it sounds like, that they're really interested as well as, for the example of the casual you mentioned, of, of helping people rise [into] new positions, and like, experiences,
Taija McLuckie 15:46
It's hard to keep a casual too, because, we had this conversation the other day, but if I'm, you know, I'm only taking, let's say, four or five half days off a month, that's super inconsistent for somebody. So you can't expect someone to stay through that, you naturally would expect them to eventually find something more consistent. Especially going into the summer. And, and yeah, so now it it kind of like keeps the good people in. I don't, what keeps kind of like rolling around in my brain is even though some days are really hard. I never feel alone. I never feel lonely.
Caitlin Burritt 16:31
Yeah, which I imagine that component is so important, because I think isolation or feeling isolated in, in that type of work I imagine would lead to probably quite intense burnout feelings pretty quickly?
Taija McLuckie 16:46
Well, and someone like myself that has a decorated history of substance use. Lonely is a comfortable place to be. It's familiar, maybe not comfortable, its familiar. And old habits die hard. And after 10 years of, you know, different types and in and out of drug use. It's, I'm always very aware of my ability to go into like those states, more so than someone who hasn't had this experience. So one of the major keys, I think, to the success that I have had, as a person, as a mother, as a drug user activist, all the things, is not feeling lonely. Yeah.
Caitlin Burritt 17:34
Yeah, I think that makes sense. And of something that you recognised with yourself as well. And yeah, of, I think it's something again, then people listening can relate to. Sometimes just when you're by yourself, the wheels are spinning, and it's just any habit that you have of any kind, it can just amplify when you're on your own, you're left like totally, to just be in your own brain. So I think that that makes sense. Is the team that you work with, is it all people that have lived and living experience? Are there some people that come to the job without that?
Taija McLuckie 18:15
Yeah, so there, it's kind of, it's a bit of both. There are some that don't have any sort of like history of drug use. But they are compassionate, and empathetic, and just understanding. I think that's what makes them, that's what makes them great. Although they don't have a lived experience they have been willing to look at, work within these groups of people who do. And yeah, yeah, we're just like a mixed bag. Most of us, like, definitely have ADHD. And it's hilarious for my coordinator for work, my programme coordinator who doesn't, because she's like, when she stepped into the programme coordinator role, she was like, 'wow, I didn't realise, like, that I'm completely surrounded' and she's very, she's organised and she's consistent. This is why she's the coordinator. And I feel like she's kind of just like watching all the hamsters, like, run in and out of the wheels and she has to, like, direct the traffic. Chaos coordinator, she needs to be titled. Yeah, she's like, 'I just have to let things happen.'
Caitlin Burritt 19:41
Of everything. It will get done. It just may not be in the, the method that's most obvious to her, all the time.
Taija McLuckie 19:50
Or like anyone who's, like, neurotypical.
Caitlin Burritt 19:54
Yeah, yeah.
Taija McLuckie 19:55
'What are you doing?' and like I don't even know. But what's great about that, too, is she's also so curious and so willing to adapt to that as well. Like the amount of like, research that she's done and the questions that she asks, and every weird video that I show her. She really, I mean, I don't know how anyone can get to like, my level of thinking, because it's bananas, sometimes. But she actively works at it all of the time. And even makes like fun coloured checklists for me that like, she let me laminate and then it just, yeah, she really goes the extra mile. And that's, that's really important.
Caitlin Burritt 20:46
Yeah, absolutely. And I, I would imagine too, just with having such a diverse team of some lived and living experience, and some not, that it's, it's a lot of probably adapting to, to each other's ways of thinking and working. So it's always good when you have a leading person who understands the need to do that, instead of trying to impose a way of --
Taija McLuckie 21:09
yeah --
Caitlin Burritt 21:10
working.
Taija McLuckie 21:10
Yeah, she very beautifully directs traffic, somewhat seamlessly, considering the crowd of us. Yeah, she's, she's phenomenal. And I think she is, she's such an asset. And I've learned a lot from her. Just like as a person and watching how, like, she organises and how she, just her level of understanding and like, commitment to this team is, it's so necessary. I think she's meant for the role that she's in, because everything that is happening right now, and the trajectory that [bleeped] is taking is would not happen without her. Yeah, it's been great.
Caitlin Burritt 21:59
I think it's also too, when you have good leadership like that, then it just makes you more comfortable, when you're trying new things in your role or in those sorts of growing pains stages of like, 'how do I figure out what to do?' Because, yeah, I don't know, what your your work experiences were when you started [bleeped]. Was it very different than work you've done before? Did you feel like you had a lot of learning to do?
Taija McLuckie 22:26
I think that was the one thing that I didn't, not that I am not always learning and things are constantly changing, drug supply is changing, harm reduction is, like, ever evolving. I. In this role, my position is funded by the like blood borne diseases. Oh God, hope they're not listening, so I can't remember the actual term for it. So like Hep C, HIV, so a lot of those aspects, those were all new to me, like the details around them, and knowing how to like, support and refer or provide information to someone at risk or living with Hep C or HIV, substance use. I, I mean, I look up that kind of shit till like two o'clock in the morning, three in the morning, sometimes. I regret it. But it's like, that's my jam, and supporting people who use drugs.
Taija McLuckie 23:24
But that was my one, my one leg up kind of is that there were so many other programmes that were starting when I started. And I fell into the role really well, just because I knew all the harm reduction gear, I knew how to like, access the information or like, resources that people needed. I knew all of the people who were accessing the centre, because of my previous employment. So I, there was really, the only people I had to get to know where the people that worked at [bleeped], because I only knew them if I was able to go and like, pick up the harm reduction gear for that previous place. And I forgot what the whole question was.
Caitlin Burritt 24:07
I guess it was just, it was kind of, if there was a learning curve for you coming into the roles that you've been in at [bleeped]?
Taija McLuckie 24:14
That's what I was gonna say, was that the, like, the technical part of the job was a breeze. I knew what I was talking about. I knew what I was doing and I knew the people. One of the biggest challenges that I did face was the, like, the culture shock and the inclusivity that I was experiencing, and how um...Like hitting this wall of the realisation of how abusive and toxic work environments can be, and have been, and I have been fortunate to work for now two incredible nonprofits who really do value and like, and put their resources into their employees and value their lived experience. But then, in comparison to, like, what I had just come from, I remember going into [bleeped]'s office one time, that's our programme coordinator, now our new manager as of today, and I walked into her office, and I'm, like, full of anxiety. And I just, I found myself apologising, constantly, like, 'Oh, I'm sorry that I did that, I'm sorry that I did that' and like, every single person that I apologised to, like in that office, they were like, 'Dude, we don't care. Like, do whatever you want. This is, this is your space,' you know. And, yeah, I, that was hard for me.
Taija McLuckie 25:47
It took me probably like three months just to unwind and then trust the space and then trust the situation. And not that I didn't trust them. I just had this built in, like, trigger system that was like 'Oh, don't do that, oh, don't do that, oh, if you're here or if you're there, or you've moved that, or if you do this, or if you say this, then you're gonna be in trouble.' Like, I always felt like that. And they [bleeped] and our previous manager, and the entire team, they just gave me so much space to do that, to like, decompress, and like, ADHD dump all over the place and move shit around all the time. Just to find my, like, safety net. They really, they gave me that space, and probably way more than, than they should have, but they they did. So that was that's was the hardest part was the transition of like, 'oh, this is what love feels like, this is how you're supposed to support each other.'
Caitlin Burritt 26:54
Right. So the the support that you receive made you realise where there had been a lack of, of support in previous work [situations, yeah]?
Taija McLuckie 27:03
Yeah, I didn't. Took me a long time to trust. Yeah, so that was, that was tough for me. But I was never not supported.
Caitlin Burritt 27:12
Well, it's always yeah, it's always really good to when you can, you can feel that support as the new staff because it's, it's always a good sign of things to come. Especially if you come from somewhere where it's more of a, if you do move something you might get in trouble or you carry those 'ah! people are breathing down my neck all the time' type of, type of, to then yeah, just be like, 'Oh, I'm, I'm trusted to do my job.'
Taija McLuckie 27:39
Or trusted to do it differently. And to know that, that because I am so passionate, and there's nothing that I do better than this work. So for that to be recognised, and then to be just, like, nurtured along the way, like 'it's okay. We're gonna keep you.' You know, I found myself like, anytime [bleeped] would be like, 'Oh, can I, can talk to you for a second?' I would immediately, like, my chest would get tight and I'd be like, 'am I in trouble?' And she's like, 'What? Like you're, Taija, you're an adult, you're not in trouble. I just want to ask you, if you want this one or this one?' like whatever it was, like, so very basic. But yeah, I'm really lucky. And I hope we get to a point one day where this shouldn't, this doesn't feel lucky. This is, this should be the norm.
Caitlin Burritt 28:35
Yeah, it's as you said, to be trusted as an adult in your job shouldn't be something where it feels like this is a novel, new thing. Yeah, unfortunately, it's, it's very easy to have work experiences where that isn't always the case. And I think that just whatever stresses are going on, that type of 'I'm gonna get in trouble' from management for trying something a different way, it just makes any work stress worse.
Taija McLuckie 29:08
Totally.
Caitlin Burritt 29:09
And sort of just glancing at our original questions from our first run at this topic. There was one area where you were talking about having practicum students and stuff like that coming in, sort of post, post lockdown, because obviously they couldn't really come in during that time. What is that like, having people from different, I guess different practicums come in to, to the workspace? And do you all take a role in, in mentoring or is it based on what their practicum interest [is]?
Taija 29:46
I don't know how the, the location or the like the that specific practicum is chosen for the students. I think I think that one of the, I think the one I'm recalling is when we had a nursing student, I think it was their third year. And when I had asked them what they had learned about substance use or harm reduction in general, they said that they had spent at that point, like, one class on it a very brief lesson on, on substance use. And I think that is tragic
Caitlin Burritt 30:31
How did it make you feel when you heard that?
Taija McLuckie 30:34
Disappointed, agitated? Disheartened. We are continually fighting a healthcare system that does not want to recognise substance use as a health issue. We want to blanket them with statements like 'they had a choice' or, or only provide them with options that have them to remain abstinent, and then put conditions on that abstinence by, you know, 'it's okay, that you're getting prescribed Methadone or Suboxone, but it's not okay that you're being prescribed Kadian,' which is just that, a substitute as well, but one is considered, I don't even know. They're all, it's all the same shit, except for someone's perspective, and the way that we like, perceive what each drug is. One is something that you can use to like get high, and then the other one is perceived to be used as like maintenance. And if, none of that really makes any sense.
Taija McLuckie 31:46
It's not okay for someone to be prescribed a fentanyl patch, but it's okay for them to be on Suboxone, which really, one's like filling an opiate receptor and the other one is blocking an opiate receptor. So it's doing, it's doing the same job, it just depends on what works for someone, and what doesn't work. And I. Yeah, it's super disappointing, because considering that this crisis has, was announced, you know, 2016, the 1000s and 1000s of lives that we have lost, like just even in this province alone, we're sitting at a rate right now, I know I mentioned this another conversation that had Indigenous women dying at the rate of 10.9% more likely than anyone else on top of white women, white men, Indigenous men, and then, like the highest number, Indigenous women, and how many years? It's been nine years. Is that nine? Am I counting that right? Or seven?
Caitlin Burritt 32:48
Somewhere in there. My math is not very strong. Yeah.
Taija McLuckie 32:55
It's Monday. My math is never strong, who am I kdding? Yeah, around yeah, seven years or so since we have announced this crisis, we, it doesn't take much to look up that this has happened, this has been happening for way longer, it just the government finally had to recognise that this is a fucking problem, and take some accountability for it. And I have third year nursing students coming into work their practicum and they've spent an hour on how to give a shit. How to approach people with compassion and empathy and kindness, understanding, provide them options, and, and reduce, reduce and mitigate the risks of what they're doing. It's, this is again, the only area that we decide there is one way or no way. You're either a junkie, or you're going to change your life. And you're going to do it the way that we want you to do it.
Caitlin Burritt 33:55
Yeah, and I think it's totally not a one hour subject. In reality, you could probably have an entire course just about addiction and the nuances of trying to provide someone support through that, through that process. And then it's also what strikes me is --
Taija McLuckie 34:13
you can have a 10 episode podcast.
Caitlin Burritt 34:15
Yeah, exactly! But, you know, that it also is something that it then directly impacts medical professionals as well because then when people do have to go into the hospital, they're, they're the people receiving it. So it's just, it's, it's disappointing on multiple fronts to hear that. Yeah, you make a good point of for other medical issues if, if someone is allergic to one type of medication to fix their whatever's ailing them, they're going to try to prescribe something different
Taija McLuckie 34:54
Mhmm.
Caitlin Burritt 34:54
So, it's like not the same consideration for people who use drugs and are trying to manage the addiction.
Taija McLuckie 35:02
And even though all of these things are mandated, like once, once COVID and like the lockdown hit, the government, like our federal government, and our provincial government, they all agreed and said that exemptions for, like, safe inhalation and safe injection sites were going to be granted and that doctors, prescribing doctors, currently, of like Methadone or Suboxone, were given that permission to, for someone to access safer supply. So they could isolate, and then not have other people come in, you know, dealers coming to to them, and vice versa, it was to keep people isolated. So, and there's this narrative right now that, you know, we're just giving everybody free drugs. But the reality is, is that the percentage of people that are actually able to even access the drug, or like any prescribed safe supply is minimal.
Taija McLuckie 36:04
So doctors are allowed to prescribe this. And I think there, you know, has been conversation around. What's the word I'm looking for? Diversion? That's the word, diversion. And they're like, 'Oh, well, we're worried that if we prescribe Dilaudid, that the person is just going to take it and then sell it. And then what if it gets in the hands of teenagers?' Like, first thing is that if it's in the hands of kids, they fucking bought it and they were already doing it. And so what we ended up giving them, indirectly, was a safe supply. So you're welcome that that kid didn't die, because he got something that was not legit. And then the second thing is, it's not happening. Like it's not fucking happening, because there's not enough prescribing to even like, prove that that is. And um, yeah, so a lot of doctors like won't, won't prescribe because of misinformation, because of fear or fear of losing their licence, fear of the College because the College is also another episode conversation. But yeah, yeah.
Caitlin Burritt 37:13
Yeah. So it's so regulated, that it's, their fears of safe supply, running rampantly through the streets or whatever is not a reality.
Taija McLuckie 37:24
No, not happening. And if it is getting sold, I mean, people aren't dying from it 'cause it's not a pressed pill that was put together by, you know, anybody. That's a regulated supply of drugs, and then people are not dying. So it's just the gatekeeping that we need to stop because really, we're, we're doing these drugs anyways. And it's not about you know, giving everyone free drugs, we just need people to stop fucking dying. So we need to give them a safe supply of drugs in order to keep them alive, in order to, you know, rehabilitate, whatever that looks like for that person. Because we there's going to be none of us left, like your generation, my generation of men, our Indigenous women, men and... There's gonna be nothing and the trickle effect of those deaths, and the trauma that that have, that that causes. It's, oh man, it's gonna be tough to see what this world looks like in 10 years.
Caitlin Burritt 38:31
And would you say that, that the misinformation is also one of the key contributors to the stressors that you face in that it creates this resistance to prescribing safe supply and, and things like that? Or also kind of creates, I think, last time you mentioned, it can also manifest in the form of community fear of 'the drugs --
Taija McLuckie 38:54
yeah --
Caitlin Burritt 38:54
are just everywhere on the street?"
Taija McLuckie 38:56
What I, you know, what, what really comes to mind for me is that, of course, the misinformation from the media and from, you know, hearsay and that, you know, a person will say bad news to 10 people but good news to two that, that's all real. But the biggest barrier, and the elephant in the room would be the lack of a rapid response between agencies, between government, local governments, between provincial governments and federal governments. This very slow response that, again, has caused that that snowball effect. And yeah, our governments are more concerned with profit before anyone else, before anything at all.
Taija McLuckie 39:47
And just listening to the narrative right now between like the Conservatives and the Liberals and the NDP and how there's this, you know, defund the safe injection sites and the overdose prevention sites, defund all harm reduction services coming from one of the, the mayors that, or a person that's running for mayor in the city of Toronto, is a fucking joke. All he wants to do is is put that into treatment centres. And if everyone knew what, what that actually meant. Treatment centres are privately run, privately funded, they make a shit tonne of money and there's actually no, like, data that you can quantify, to actually show that treatment centres work. They just bring a lot of profit to like --
Caitlin Burritt 40:38
yeah --
Taija McLuckie 40:38
the greasy dudes that run it at the top. So this is the problem, is that we have people that have a platform that are more interested in that profit than anything else.
Caitlin Burritt 40:47
Yeah, getting around the want of profit. That is such a challenge. How do you get past that motivation in people and agencies that, how do you create that [indiscernable]?
Taija McLuckie 40:59
Take your shoes off, go walk in, like, the forest, barefoot by yourself. And then ask yourself, you know, 'if I could change anything about what I'm doing or who I am as a person' and then listen, and I'm kind of like reiterating this quote that I heard from Jordan Peterson, one time that said something very similar, but it was like, 'sit in your bed, sit quiet. And then think about what you're doing, and what your biggest issue is, but then be prepared for the truth.' I think we're so disconnected from this human experience and we have gotten so far from the, from the truth that we're all going to die. Like literally none of us make it out of this life alive. What are you going to be okay with at the end? And I think a lot of these people are going to be miserable. You can't --
Caitlin Burritt 41:50
yeah --
Taija McLuckie 41:50
take your fancy car with you.
Caitlin Burritt 41:52
Yeah. And I think it's come up so many times really, so much of harm reduction is, can be about just treating people with empathy and treating people as human beings who deserve that compassion and respect. And I think that's really the other side of that.
Taija McLuckie 42:11
Well, we have autonomy over our body, our bodies, in this country, and over our health care and our like, unless you're unconscious, and you have someone that is, has the rights to make decisions for you and, and it's you know, life or death in that moment, no one makes a choice about your health care or your well-being than you. You direct what you want, and how you want it to go and how you want to treat your cancer or your anything. No one forces you to get chemo, no one forces you to get radiation, if you want to go and die at home alone, like, or like, with your family or whatever, you get to choose that. And that's okay in, in anything else. So yeah, harm reduction is giving someone the ability and the dignity to make decisions about their, their own well being and what they need, and just and respecting that. And that person's process. Yeah,
Caitlin Burritt 43:13
Yeah, which I think is a very succinct way of framing that point in that wider conversation. Just glancing at our time.
Taija McLuckie 43:23
Yeah, my kids are probably going to barrel through the door in about four minutes.
Caitlin Burritt 43:28
Yeah, so I'm wondering if maybe we should wrap that, sort of, with that final statement for now.
Taija McLuckie 43:35
I love how we like finish with a clincher like --
Caitlin Burritt 43:38
yeah! --
Taija McLuckie 43:39
that I like, this is, my, one of my friends that calls them Taija-isms. That's a wrap!
Caitlin Burritt 43:44
That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast, to listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.