Unsilencing Stories

Taija McLuckie: Episode 5: Exposure to Death & Trauma Continued

Unsilencing Stories Season 2 Episode 14

In this episode, you'll hear Tajia McLuckie tell Caitlin Burritt and Ashley White about the recent passing of a friend due to a fatal overdose. She received the news the morning she was supposed to give a presentation about harm reduction to Island Health. Taija describes how supportive her current work environment is and how important it is that peers and people who use drugs feel valued instead of stigmatised.

Glossary:

Brave COOP:  The cooperative of people responsible for creating the Brave Sensor
Brave Sensor: An Overdose Detection tool for public bathrooms
CAT: Community Action Team
Decriminalization: A three year pilot project which began on January 31, 2023,which exempts adults carrying small amounts of illicit drugs from being subject to arrest or criminal charges.
Downtown Eastside: The Downtown Eastside is a neighbourhood in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, known for having a large unhoused population, many of whom are affected by substance use disorder.
Mobile Response Team: An outreach team in Taija’s community, created to support frontline workers during the Opioid Crisis
Moms Stop The Harm: A network of Canadian families impacted by substance-use-related harms and deaths, which advocates to end substance use related stigma, harms and death.
NA: Narcotics Anonymous 
Naloxone: A medicine that rapidly reverses an opioid overdose.
OAT: Opioid agonist therapy
VIHA: Vancouver Island Health Authority (also referred to as Island Health)

This episode was recorded on November 23, 2022.

Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016, according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers also known as peers in different parts of BC.     

 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper, they outlined significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing, and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.    

 

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose, death, grief, trauma, and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's chair award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Tajia McLuckie tell Caitlin Burritt and Ashley White about the recent passing of a friend due to a fatal overdose. She received the news the morning she was supposed to give a presentation about harm reduction to Island Health. Taija describes how supportive her current work environment is and how important it is that peers and people who use drugs feel valued instead of stigmatised. 

 

Taija McLuckie  01:59 

I, I had that that presentation on last Wednesday, with Island Health on the 16th of November, which I was like, insanely, oh, like stressed out about I overthought like everything. And like, it basically got, like, right down like, to the wire, and then I just did not like sleep well, I was up probably till like 3:30, four in the morning, just like tossing and turning and, and just like, the realisation that, although like, I've spent a few years in this work, having to face like, health professional, like medical professionals, and, and, you know, like doctors and nurses, like just given the way that, like, I was treated like when I was in my substance use and how much that still affects me. Yeah, it was just super stressful, um, and then like being able to, like, recognise that I'm in a place like where I'm at. And if it's this hard for me, I just, I can't imagine what it is like, on someone who is still, like, using substances and needing, like, emergency services with how like burnt out everybody is and how they get treated.  

 

Taija McLuckie  03:29 

So when I woke up on Wednesday morning, I woke up to the news that my friend died. And he was like, three blocks from my house. And he was over here for work. He's a foreman, for like a, for a concrete company. And he just like went out and like had some beers and bought some coke that was contaminated. And a lot of people, like, who are like recreational users won't carry Naloxone, or they say like, 'I don't need it. I don't do, like, that stuff.' And yeah, so that's like, that is what I've heard before my, like right right before my presentation. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  04:33 

Oh, I'm so sorry for your loss. And I mean, yeah, that's obviously very difficult news to hear and to then have to continue on and and do your presentation. How did it... You still went through with the presentation? How did you? I mean, how did you navigate those two things stacking up against each other?  

 

Taija McLuckie  05:05 

Yeah, I, I, I cried a lot. And then I phoned one of my friends. It's a woman I used work with, and, and we still, like, remained friends outside of that. But I phoned her to tell her about what happened. And she asked me she's like, like, 'what are you gonna do?' And I was like, I just, I want to get on that presentation and just be like, 'What the fuck are we doing? Like, we've had all of these conversations before, none of this information is new. I'm here taking my whole day off work. So I'm basically paying you to, paying every, like, you guys who make this, like, much more than I do, I'm paying you. So I can tell you how to be fucking nice to people. And teach you about harm reduction, and the principles of harm reduction. And like in the community supports available, like, if you don't know that, Jesus, like, either you just don't want to, or you just don't care.' And so she's a little bit like me, so she was like, 'then say that.'  

 

Taija McLuckie  06:40 

So, I don't know. And like my own, like practice to keep myself like accountable, because sometimes I can just like, say stuff that can get me in trouble. So I then called someone else and then one more person after that, and all three of them, like including the pharmacist that was the one that invited me to do the presentation. They all were like, 'That's exactly what you need to do. Like, if you feel like you can, if you feel like you can do that, then if you feel like you can join in today, then definitely do that.' So I did. And so I basically like just threw my whole presentation out the window. And I told a little bit of my story, how old I was, you know, when I tried each drug for the first time and that I, I also was like, you know, an A, B student. And I like skated and competed like in our, like, figure skated and competed in the BCs when I was like 12 years old. And I played basketball and soccer. And so, it's not like bad people don't do drugs. It's not just, you know, bad people or people that...  

 

Taija McLuckie  08:13 

I don't know, we just do things. And that's kind of what I wanted to like, convey, like, I was active and healthy, and smart. And I also liked to do MDMA, once in a while. And um. And then if I was a youth today, I'd likely be dead. And I went through, you know, like the principles of harm reduction with not very much like gusto, and said that if there was anything else that like they wanted to know, in regards to harm reduction, that they could Google it just as easy as I could, the information they had is how they have access to is so much more than I could ever imagine. And that we have the solutions, and the gaps are not within the community supports. The gaps are between like our health authority and the community supports. And that I don't think that responding to this crisis is going to take very long once people's kids start dying, which is really shitty, because everyone who has died is someone's kid, you know? Yeah. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  09:38 

How did they respond when, yeah when you told all of this to them? 

 

Taija McLuckie  09:44 

The response actually was much better than I had hoped or  much better than I thought it was going to be. I actually thought it was going to come with consequence because I, you know, made remarks about not holding these roundtable discussions anymore, like stop talking about it, start doing something about it. And that if they didn't, like, I get that when you want to hold someone accountable, especially when it's an employer or like someone in an authority position that your risk can be losing your employment, but they're not going to have any jobs anyways, in the next few years, because we're all going to be dead, like, you can't have patients if we're dead. So yeah, they, I left by email at the end of it and was open to like questions and stuff, I wasn't expecting anyone to really say much.  

 

Taija McLuckie  10:53 

But as soon as we kind of like wrapped it up, and I said that anyone can like reach out afterwards, my email was like da-ding, da-ding, da-ding, da-ding. And just people like sharing and the frustration and the understanding and um, and then the, oh, there was like three people like the Mental Health and Substance Use Director of like Nanaimo and Victoria. And then there's two other, like, I call them suits, reached out to me to have a follow up conversation. So that'll be in December. It's just too bad that it like take someone dying and like me falling apart, for them to become connected to the issue. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  11:47 

So you've touched on it in, in previous interviews, as well, that part of the reason that it's gotten to this crisis point is because there is such pre-existing stigma and partially within the health, health supports that exist. And sounds like it, a lot too, you know, because you'd also express that you had been working on this presentation for weeks as well. And to do such a pivot at the last moment.  

 

Taija McLuckie  12:22 

Mhmm.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  12:23 

I just think it's, thank you for sharing and also, you know, that it is, it is unfortunate that that's what it takes of, sort of, the emotional labour that you had to put in there on top of such a stressful week. 

 

Taija McLuckie  12:41 

I'm really, like, thankful, like, I know, one of our topics was about, like, unequal treatment, like in the workplace, and I'm extremely fortunate that way, where, like, working for [bleeped] just, they just strongly support like peer, peer work, peer support work, work in the community, and the flexibility that they have had around you know, like, this podcast and, and I'm working on the Brave Sensor pilot, and being able to like, step out, and go, like, take a meeting for an hour and just the way that this team like covers for each other is unbelievable. I have never felt valued as a peer in a workplace setting, you know, out doing like community work and stuff, I feel that value, but in places, there's just a real lack of understanding and I guess flexibility. We're still in that very, like, colonial space, and that like top-down management work hard and you know, don't take time off and and just no consideration for someone's like, lived experience.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  14:22 

How has it impacted you to have a team that does support you to do other projects or that covers for each other? And would you have still made time to try and work on other projects like the Brave Sensor and this podcast and the presentation if that wasn't the case, or has is made a difference that way?  

 

Taija McLuckie  14:44 

It has made...like, it's everything to me. I would not have the opportunities that I have, like leading up to today. Without this team behind me. And I mean, in turn that makes me want to be like, the best employee for them. And they want to support me and my peer work. And I would have still, if I wasn't in this environment, I still would have tried to, to do all these other things, because it's a huge part of, I don't want to say like, it's the reason why I don't do coke every single day anymore. Like I just, it inspires me, I love what I get to do.  

 

Taija McLuckie  15:41 

But what [bleeped] has given me out of that is more time with my kids, because I can do it during the day while they're at school and while I'm working. I just have more time, I don't think I would have been able to stand up like I did at that presentation without the confidence and like self-worth that [bleeped] adds to my life and like, the team there. I likely would have been too intimidated.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  16:14 

Yeah, I mean, it's hard to it's hard to go into a setting like that,  too. [You] described in the past, a couple interviews ago, really feeling the outsider of that group of health professionals, to stand up for yourself. So it's, it's great that you can feel encouraged and supported in that and have supports you could consult with beforehand as well. In the past, have you had any similar support in previous peer work? Or is this something that has really come with this current role and position?  

 

Taija McLuckie  16:50 

Um, I, I have been supported as a peer. But just in a different way. I have never been able to do peer work within my like working day. It's been like we support you, but it's like outside of here. That's when I first got into, to support work. And yeah, I. Yeah, no, I guess no, not not in this way. And then my, with my, like previous employment. I mean, just the like, the fact that I didn't have, that I don't have like a social work diploma or some, like a degree. The knowledge that I have was always just disregarded. And I remember sitting in a conversation like with my coordinator, and her words literally were like, 'you don't have a social work diploma though, do you?' And I was like, 'Nope, just a fucking idiot over here,' like? Yeah, yeah. Like you just don't forget those kinds of things, you know. So you just feel insignificant. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  18:23 

Yeah, that's to have it sort of so bluntly stated to you, I'm sure is like, a very jarring moment. And -- 

 

Ashley White  18:33 

maybe a little inadequate? Or makes you feel a little inadequate? 

 

Taija McLuckie  18:40 

Yeah, and when this is supposed to be someone who's leading me.  

 

Ashley White  18:45 

Mhmm. 

 

Taija McLuckie  18:45 

I just thought like, 'if I could get out of debt...' 

 

Caitlin Burritt  18:50 

Yeah, really a comment that also isn't taking into account that there's external factors going on in a person's life and your life to maybe have impacted that. You mentioned too, that for just being part of the team at [bleeped] has also increased, or I don't know if increase is the right word, but makes you want to be the best employee for them that you can be. Do you think for them, that they sort of support rising into leadership roles? And you also mentioned previously that maybe someday you'd be interested in an education type of role? 

 

Taija McLuckie  19:26 

Yeah, I was actually just talking to the educator about this. Because on, on Friday, she's actually stepping into like the coordinator position for our office, which is, I mean, she does that job already anyways, so it's really nice that she's gonna get paid for it. And I said to her, I was like, selfishly, "I just, I don't want you to go into the coordinator position because I don't want anyone else to take the educator position." But I, I know my like capacity, and I'm not ready for that role. And I don't know, I just, I love being in peer work and in harm reduction, and getting to do the things I do now, like, lip off a bunch of people from Island Health. And I just wouldn't be able to do that in that role either. So there's absolutely room to grow.  

 

Taija McLuckie  20:30 

And I'm like, continually reminded by like, staff, and like my manager that, like, of my value, and, like, my manager sat me down last week. And she was like, you know, like, 'you have all of these things, like, externally going on. And like, you also have your personal life and your work life.' And she's like, 'I just want to do these regular check ins, because I want to see you sustain this.' And she's like, 'so how are you? Like, where are you at?' You know, and just constantly like checking in reminding me of like, my value, my place in this team. How can I be supported? And like her making a comment, like, 'I don't want you to come to me in six months from now, because you need three months off, cuz you're having a breakdown. Like, can we just go through this as a team, like, together? Like, just keep talking as much as you want' and that, just even like that, even if I was or is or am overwhelmed, knowing that I have the support? And I can, I trust that I can use those supports in my workplace and feel safe. And that is,  yeah, it's everything.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  22:01 

It's always great when, as you said, a team can come together and just make everyone feel as valued as they, as they should be, especially when you're taking on projects where maybe you're reaching out to people who don't necessarily respond the same way, like emergency and harm reduction, like medical professionals. I think, also, very early in this conversation you, you had mentioned just trying to move past your own memories of having to interact with these people when you were in your active addiction. Would that be something you're comfortable talking about, of what it was like when you were encountering them, then versus now? 

 

Taija McLuckie  22:53 

Oh, yeah, I. I still. Okay, so I'll back up a sec. Accessing, when I was first prescribed opiates, and when I would go to fill my prescription. The like, you can, you know, like, you can just tell when someone doesn't want to be there, doesn't want to, like talk to you. And I would, there'd be a person in front of me. And let's say like the pharmacist was like, all like, 'oh, have a good day.' And then when I would go up to fill my prescription because it was quite large, like, the amount of pills that I was getting at that time. And it like, it was like, they would just shut down.  

 

Taija McLuckie  23:48 

So I, in turn, felt like I'm worthless. And yeah, I, even like not being treated nice and not being really treated like anything at all. Those are two, like, very similar circumstances. I, when I was using and I would go to the hospital because of like significant pain and my medication wasn't helping. And they would be like, we can't do anything for you. And I wouldn't even see anyone for hours, just to be told that they can't do anything for me. I think I shared before when we last spoke, just about how that one doctor said to the doctor that he was training after he examined me and realised, like, what I was taking. He gave me a Motrin and then left the room and said to like, that trainee [doctor], I don't know, whatever you call them, 'you have to watch out for people like that.' And I just thought like 'Screw you,' like I did, I. It's like I didn't deserve to be relieved of my pain, or, like not even an x-ray, not a referral for an MRI. Yeah, and they, and it turned out. So I didn't actually get a like a full-body, like, MRI until about three years into my, like the ICBC, like, investigation. And I had, like, their doctor or surgeon or whatever tell me that after examining me that I was totally fine. And that it was just like some soft tissue damage, I don't know, basically told me that I was making it up, that it wasn't real.  

 

Taija McLuckie  25:56 

And so I finally got this MRI after, like, advocating for myself over and over being in all of this pain. And it turned out that I had like, significant, like tears to my left shoulder, and it was likely going to require surgery. So it took me three years just to get an MRI because everyone thought I was just a junkie who was trying to get pills. Yeah. And, like, even now when I go to the pharmacy to pick up my medication, and like the, the tech will, like, you know, read the label, and they're likely reading the label because they want to make sure it's the right birthday, person. Like that's their job. But I still get this like gut feeling like that they're judging my Adderall script. When I have to go to the doctor, besides my family physician, he's phenomenal. But when I have to go into the hospital, or to go see like a walk-in doctor, I always default to like, 'they're not going to believe me.' Like, I hate going to the hospital. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  27:12 

Yeah, so the basically, dismissal is what you experienced for three years. And has it impacted you even, maybe, I mean, clearly it has in, in your own, when you have to go to the hospital, for whatever reason, but does it impact you when doing peer work? If you've had to maybe recommend someone to go to the hospital? Or do you encounter people who are resistant to going because of similar experiences? 

 

Taija McLuckie  27:45 

Oh, I can count on one hand. How many people have actually been transported to hospital. And I always encourage people to at least, like, allow the paramedics to, you know, do like the vitals and like have that that last call and see what their recommendation is because I'm not a paramedic, I don't consider myself like qualified to, like, make that call. But I, yeah no, I don't, I don't really know many people who want to go to the hospital. Like most people won't even like stay for the ambulance to arrive. Because when they go, they don't get support. And I don't really encourage them to go. The ones that I can count, on one hand have been like, a significant incident where I'm like, 'Dude, you need stitches,' or 'you were without oxygen for you know, 10 minutes, like, please just humour me.' Yeah but, most don't want to go. So it sucks because I really, there are people who the harms are just, like, compacted. You know, if someone has a head injury, and you know, they've just been revived. And they've, you know, fallen in a puddle and their clothes are wet and they're unhoused. 

 

Taija McLuckie  29:21 

Like there's so many things that are just stacking on top of one another. And they have a right to health care and they don't want to access it. I mean, I don't want to either, half the time. So yeah, it does impact my work because then it also eventually makes my work harder because this person might now have like a head injury that they didn't treat. And that comes with a whole other set of issues. So yeah, we're just injuring the injured. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  30:01 

Yeah, I think that's a very good way to put it. And I imagine, would this extend as well to maybe not hospital emergency services levels but would it impact people, say, going into a walk-in clinic or something like that as well, if they needed to? 

 

Taija McLuckie  30:20 

Yeah, to the point where we actually like, thankfully now have a, an outreach team that has a doctor and clinician, the nurse, a support worker, and an occupational therapist. And they have, like this mobile van, it's like a doctor's office on wheels. And they're out five days a week, there are a few doctors that we can, like we can phone, that we have their phone numbers, and there are just different services for folks like that. Like folks who don't want to access like the general public walk-in, I don't even know if they'd be allowed to like, to stay. Because if they fell asleep or something in the chair, likely they'd be asked to leave. A lot of our walk-ins are within like, you know, Superstore and Walmart and a lot of people aren't allowed in there again, so they can't access it. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  31:30 

Yeah, and I would assume, I think some of them, you need the personal health number as well, which they may or may not have access to.  

 

Taija McLuckie  31:37 

Yeah, yeah.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  31:38 

Do you think that a mobile response team, like the one you're describing could be a potential solution to well, not necessarily solution? Because it's such a, we have such a health, just in general issue in BC with accessing services, but have you found that this has been a successful way of reaching the unhoused population? 

 

Taija McLuckie  32:06 

It's a start. But most folks don't run Monday to Friday. Yeah, it's every day.  

 

Ashley White  32:15 

Mhmm. 

 

Taija McLuckie  32:17 

It's, it's a great start having this team. And like their ability to, like go to the more like heavily populated areas where our folks hang out. And I think it's just it's not enough, it is a baby step in the type of response that we need. And we wouldn't have had to have in the first place, if we just made some changes to the services that are already there. We don't need any more frickin' services, we just need the ones that are available to make big changes, not pilot projects. 

 

Ashley White  33:08 

I think it kind of starts with the services that are in place. How do these services regain the trust of some of these people, you know, of this population in general? And that might be where the starting point is? 

 

Taija McLuckie  33:22 

Yeah, and you make a really good point there, is that how do you? How do you heal from the damage that's done? And yeah, how do you heal from that? And can you, you know, if you've had years of trauma from these places, then would you ever go back if you don't have the, even like, the understanding of like, knowing how to, like, that forgiveness is, you know, for you and not someone else, like, those are like practices that are not I don't know, used within that community. So I think it's unrealistic to think that it can be helped, like it could that those services can be fixed. So you win that round, Ashley. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  34:33 

Yeah, and I think it circles back to points that you've made before where it's, these are, VIHA and things like that. Those are big organisations and, you know, the, the onus shouldn't necessarily be on smaller, you know, nonprofit and community-led organisations to fix these entire systemic things and provide all of the solutions. 

 

Taija McLuckie  34:58 

I was thinking too, like, one of the things we're trying to, or we actually just got allocated some funding for were like peer, some of our peer initiatives. One of them is, like more peer involvement, and like presentations and education within just even like specifically the emergency room and being able to provide folks who do end up at the hospital with a peer support, and having the hospital staff offering that support to them, like, upon their arrival. And just someone that can help them navigate, you know, what, they're, what they're going through. And then also, there's like, that accountability piece to the staff that like, are you still gonna treat this person the same now that this person has a support with them?  

 

Ashley White  35:58 

Mhmm. 

 

Taija McLuckie  35:59 

Yeah. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  36:00 

Yeah. Because it's providing another witness to the treatment and also would allow to help them advocate as well. But do you think it is something that is an attainable, attainable step? 

 

Taija McLuckie  36:14 

I like to think so. But Island Health doesn't have a very great rap sheet when it comes to peer engagement, change. And, yeah, I imagine we will be met with, you know, like, their confidentiality reasons and information that peers aren't privy to, like just a bunch of bull, really. And red tape. I imagine they'll be met with that. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. We have an appointment with someone super important at the hospital on like Tuesday, who like runs like the mental health and substance use and harm reduction to like, talk about what this, this project will look like. So we will see what she says. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  37:19 

And how, how receptive they are, I guess, as well. And hopefully, hopefully, it goes well. But as you said, you'll see. Now just keeping an eye on our time, there's about 15 minutes left. And we're also mindful that you've had a difficult and stressful week as well. Is there any last thoughts on your mind about any of the conversation today? 

 

Taija McLuckie  37:51 

I'm just, that I appreciate that you guys, were able to reschedule this till tonight. And also providing that space for me to say, like, I'm exhausted. And I appreciate this time, too. It really means a lot when you can engage with peers, appropriately. So I appreciate that you have like that understanding. And you are correct, it has been a week a lot of emotions happening for me. But this is so awesome. Like I, I really do appreciate being able to do this. It's kind of like my own little like debrief. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  38:47 

Yeah. Well, obviously, we appreciate that you still made the time to speak with us and despite a lot going on in your life, both professional and everything, and just yeah, that it's a space where you feel like you can kind of speak candidly as well. So I think it's all good information of, that there are stressful situations and how you're feeling. Yeah, we, we support big feelings here. Yeah. But -- 

 

Taija McLuckie  39:25 

 thanks --  

 

Caitlin Burritt  39:26 

Yeah, I think we'll let you go. 

 

Ashley White  39:30 

Yeah, I think I'm good. 

 

Taija McLuckie  39:32 

You really made me think, Ashley, about like, when you said about, like, the healing and people access to accessing those services. I'm, I haven't actually thought about that end of it for quite some time. So I really appreciate that. And that you've given me something to think about now for the next however many days until Tuesday is, because there is so much value in that.  

 

Ashley White  39:58 

I think when it comes to a lot of these services and stuff we think about what can the people directly affected do and we forget that it's kind of a bigger picture. So like solutions aren't just, we can't just put them all on one population to fix. It's kind of society as a whole. And everyone kind of has a place in that, in those solutions.  

 

Taija McLuckie  40:20 

Yeah, just like mind blown. Thanks, guys.  

 

Ashley White  40:27 

Yeah.  

 

Caitlin Burritt  40:27 

Thank you. 

 

Caitlin Burritt  40:30 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast, to listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.