Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016, according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers also known as peers in different parts of BC.    

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.  

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use overdose death, grief, trauma, and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project a number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study, and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.     

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Tajia McLuckie talk to Caitlin Burritt and Ashley White about financial insecurity and the lack of standard payment practices for peer workers. Tajia discusses the differences between how peers are compensated on projects compared to other experts in other fields. She also talks about how she feels lucky to do work she feels passionate about and how her passion for peer work helps her combat burnout.  

Caitlin Burritt  02:01 

There we go. We are started off for the day. So yeah, as I said, last, last week, we were talking about about resources and some of the challenges faced in getting funding for different nonprofits kind of competing for the same resources, not necessarily having your requests met in the way that you want and a variety of other things. And so, you mentioned you were having some thoughts about the financial side of things this morning? 

Taija McLuckie  02:42 

Yeah, I guess. There are some other like projects that I'm working on, like, as a peer and that are funded, like, through, we get paid like an honorarium. And so, and that honorarium, it's like a non-taxable amount. And when it comes to like, peer engagement, a lot of the times, or, I mean, in my experience that I've found that I believe the intent is there, when, like any organisation wants to have lived and living experience, their feedback, in order to have a successful project. There are just some things that are, that are missed, like, I'm much better, better with, like, storytelling.  

Taija McLuckie  03:44 

So this one project that I'm on, we've had just like email exchanges back and forth. It's with, like, Island Health and then wanting peer engagement. So myself and like another peer are there to, what they say, is to help, like, guide and teach and, you know, help this programme roll out. And it is, it feels very tokenized. I'm not sure if I've expressed that before, but it... A lot of this throughout this project it's been like, 'hey, we really want and value your lived and living experience and we are going to pay you and this is how we're going to pay you.' It's like all of the decisions have already been made and all of the, like, signage and like, posters, and it's like, 'look at everything that we've already created. Even though we value your opinion, we just want to know what you think about what we've already done.' 

Taija McLuckie  04:57 

Which is a huge miss because if this project is for, like, folks with lived and living experience and the tools being used are supposed to support this, this group, have we not had a conversation with them? And I'm left thinking, like, 'what am I even doing here?' And from all the conversations that we've had in the email exchanges that are going, you know, back and forth, that I'm, you know, reading on my break, reading on my lunch break, and kind of, there's this expectation to, like, keep up with everything. But everyone else is getting paid for that. This has been going, we've been doing like email exchanges, and there was like a Zoom meeting. I would say I've put maybe 15,  10-15 hours into this and I've been paid $25. Because we get paid $25 bucks an hour and that was to attend the meeting and anyone else on this project is, they're getting paid to read the emails they're getting and like, and I don't want this to seem like it's about the money.  But if I went to every other person on this project, like, any other health professional, and said, 'you're going to do all of this on your own time and I'm only going to pay you to show up to the meeting.' They wouldn't do it. They also wouldn't find it fair. But for a peer to express that also puts this project at risk. Yeah, it's frustrating.  

Caitlin Burritt  06:53 

Yeah, well, that's yeah, it does take a lot of energy to do all these other things on the side. And so yeah, one of our first questions in the financial insecurity section is, do you receive enough financial compensation for your work? And so do you find that it, it changes across project versus maybe where you work full time? 

Taija McLuckie  07:18 

Every project is a little bit different. But where I work full time, I know what I'm going to be paid, I know that I'm going to be paid for the work that I do while I'm here, like as a, you know, with my professional hat on. And I know when to expect my paycheck, and it gets deposited in my bank account. And if there's any concerns, either, there's no fear about going to my manager, and saying, like, 'Hey, I ended up having to stay an extra half hour because of X,Y and Z.' And it's like, 'oh okay, great. Put it on your timesheet,' you know? There's no fear in that. But as a peer being invited to these tables, there, for me anyways, there's like this fear of like, rocking the boat, because. So, I feel like maybe I should just be grateful for that $25 and so I get invited back again. 

Taija McLuckie  08:27 

And that if I say anything, I'm going to look ungrateful, and then whatever that project is, might not continue, or it might be put on hold, because now they need to, you know, put some policy in place. And for one of these projects that I'm working on, this tool that is rolling out right now will save people's lives and reduce so many harms of, like, just stress and stigma. And even for people that are working in the building supporting people who use drugs, this tool is going to take a lot of pressure off of them. So if I go and raise some stink about not being paid enough, or for my time or for the work that I'm doing, well, then this might not move forward. Whereas I wouldn't feel that way in my job, my full time job. 

Caitlin Burritt  09:36 

Yeah. So do you find that it almost puts the pressure almost on you to make that call of whether to bring that concern forward to the other people that you're collaborating with, rather than maybe them thinking about it beforehand, type of thing? 

Taija McLuckie  10:00 

Oh, definitely, a lot of the responsibility lies on, just relies on me being able to advocate for myself. And not. Not every peer is in a position to do that, you know, we all have different personalities and approach things differently. And yeah, more often than not, it's really difficult to advocate for yourself because of all the systemic issues. And like, I don't have an issue with saying what I think or how I feel and that blessing and curse was given to me by my mom. Yeah, just sometimes it gets me in trouble. But things like this takes so long because not everyone can do that. Not everyone can speak up for themselves. Yeah, it gets exhausting.  

Caitlin Burritt  11:00 

Yeah. And then, you know, you're speaking last week about how too, it's, there's, you know, even then, in the organisations that you have worked for that, then there's, there's financial struggles there, of tried to get the resources between where you're working, where other people are working. So it's sounds like it must just be, you know, a lot to, to have to navigate a lot of the time. But I guess for our questions, it touched on this a little bit already. But does the money that you earn, feel appropriate for the type of work that you're doing? Or again, is this something that it depends sort of which, which job you're doing, which project you're attached to? 

Taija McLuckie  11:48 

I,  I mean, what I make now at, like, my job is the most that I've ever made. Do I... Do I think that I should make more? I don't know, I don't really, I mean, me as a single mom raising two boys and if anything ever happened to their dad, yeah, I would definitely like to make some more money. But I believe that the $25 an hour, I think it's fair. The process in order to get that money is not. So if there is, there's a lot of like, for me, anyways, there's a lot of stress around it. Because there is this, you know, a certain amount that, of honoraria, that's like allocated to whatever agency in order to pay peers to do the work that they do. And it's, it is in, it's very inconsistent where it's like, 'okay, well, we've put through, like, you know, the financials, and you should see it in your bank next Tuesday or Wednesday, Thursday, like, for sure.' And when you rely on this money to, like, offset all the costs in life.  

Taija McLuckie  13:15 

It's, yeah, it's extremely stressful being like, am I gonna get paid Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday? And then Thursday morning, it's still not there. And I'm thinking about it, you know, because I'm spending my time on these projects, thankfully, because I love what I do and I'm very passionate about it. So that kind of justifies the stress around it. But I mean, one of the other projects, I actually had to, like, go drive to go to a different centre to pick it up and sign for it. And I don't believe that anyone else is paid that way. It's like this waiting game and this, like, I don't know, it's super stigmatising. 

Caitlin Burritt  14:03 

Yeah. When things like that happen, how does it make you feel? Does it make you, you mentioned stigmatised? And does it? Do you feel like it sort of separates you from other contributors to projects that you're in?  

Taija McLuckie  14:19 

Oh, for sure. No one else on the project, besides the other peer has to go into a separate building and walk up to a desk to a lady you've never met and say, 'hi, there should be an envelope with my name on it' and then explain what's in the envelope and why. That's ridiculous. I think it's, like, demeaning. Yeah, I don't really know how else to explain that. And there's just not that consideration and, and all of that gets decided before we're even on the project because that's what works for that organisatio and again, another miss. No one else has to, if you're like a, you know, paid professional on that project, but as soon as you become a peer, you have to, like, announce yourself.  

Taija McLuckie  15:13 

Yeah. And sometimes, like it's okay to want to be private in those things. Yeah, it's just, it's weird. It's. Yeah. And again, it just comes with that fear of, if I say, like, 'this is super degrading, having to go announce myself,' the fear of not being invited back on these projects and ultimately, the work that we do, like, saves lives and can have a major impact. So where's the, where's the balance? Of like, respecting myself, knowing my worth, and then looking at like, the bigger picture for the greater good? 

Caitlin Burritt  16:03 

Yeah, it's a lot to balance. Do you think that this is something that there are solutions to? Or would be helped by maybe involving peers earlier in the process for these types of projects? 

Taija McLuckie  16:21 

Oh, yeah. There are a tonne of resources and policies and procedures, like, written by people who use drugs on and who have, like, that lived and living experience from the Downtown Eastside in Vancouver. None of this is new and I was talking to one of my colleagues about this this morning and... What was she saying? We were talking about how this, when you engage people with lived and living experience, and you require, like, peer engagement, it takes a lot of time. And it's like, it can be like coordinating, coordinating chaos. I like to say herding cats. But, and that's why most, like, organisations don't want to do that. So then they go their own route and like, make their own decisions and ultimately, the majority of those projects fail because they haven't engaged and taken the time to, to use the experience in order to make it successful. And yeah, it doesn't get done, because it takes a lot of time.  

Taija McLuckie  17:39 

But ultimately, you just end up taking more time when you have to go back and like, correct, and fix the harms that you've caused along the way because you didn't just engage the people who are the experts in it. I mean, you wouldn't want to take swimming lessons from, like, a pilot that doesn't know how to swim. When in any other areas of our lives we want the expert in whatever it is we're trying to learn.  But yeah, it's just,  in this area, it's not the same consideration. 

Caitlin Burritt  18:16 

Yeah, definitely. It's ,you're very good at using examples that really make the, the point very clear. And yeah, I think you're absolutely right with that. And so you just also were speaking about, it's really, part of what drives you is, is your passion for the work itself. Do you think that it is sustainable to keep the passion and the work going against the financial compensation that you receive? 

Taija McLuckie  18:50 

Yeah, I mean, sustainable, I'm not sure for how many more years, but I find that with, like, the supports that I have in place, I use, like, the mobile response team when needing to, like, debrief on any situation that I get involved with. And I find I can, as long as I'm like, supporting my mental well-being and my physical well-being, which is also a tonne of work when sometimes you just want to be, like, 'fuck it.' It does feel defeating, but I would not, I would be miserable, like, without it. I don't know how to not advocate and how to not just keep, like, pushing forward. Yeah, I would do it for free. Don't tell everybody that though. 

Caitlin Burritt  18:50 

Yeah. And you know, I think that's that's admirable. It's, it's hard to do anything when it's put you under, under a strain and this is obviously, it's a lot of pressure that you're working within. You mentioned that, you know, taking care of your physical and mental well-being and having supports for that, do you find that financial aspect[s] play into those types of stresses? Or is it more of the, you know, the bigger picture of the weight of the, of the work? 

Taija McLuckie  20:23 

I think a bit of both. So, at the last place that I was working, we had benefits. And then I just started with [bleeped] in September. And so because it's, like, a probationary period, I still have to wait, however many hours in order to receive benefits. So I'm fortunate in that way, that once those kick in again, I'll be able to access just different types of care. I think, when it comes to, like, taking care of myself in order to, like, continue doing this work, I think you'll find that not, that's not just isolated, like, to peers. Unfortunately, when life does get heavy, or you experience something traumatic, or like anything that kind of like sets you off balance, we still have to go out and get the help, we still have to, you know, like, call the number or call a friend, we still have to like, do that footwork. So I think that from, from my opinion, anyways, I think that's difficult for. Everyone faces that sort of challenge.  

Taija McLuckie  21:42 

I went out on Friday night, and was able to provide harm reduction supports, for a fundraiser with two other nonprofits. And they, we did like 12 hours outside. And I mean, most people know that the weather is, like, completely shifted and we went from 8pm until 8am. And one of the nonprofits brought food and the other is, like, strictly volunteer, she brought, like, I don't know, 15 bags of like blankets and jackets and hats and whatnot for people, there was a few propane heaters setup. And I was able to go through this experience that I think, like, I am forever changed, I have not done something like that before.  

Taija McLuckie  22:48 

I didn't realise that I had any more capacity for, like, empathy and compassion. And I remember I was standing there having a conversation with this gentleman, who is currently unhoused. And we were probably like six feet from the propane heater, so you couldn't feel the warmth anymore. And we're, like, four minutes in nd I am, I really want to listen to what this person is saying. But I'm, like, shaking and trying to like ignore this screaming voice in my head being like 'I'm fucking cold!; Like, all I wanted to do was move over to the propane heater. But I also did not want to take away from this moment that I was honoured enough to, like, hear, you know, having someone open up to you as a really big deal. And, and then my mind won and I was like, 'I really want to hear what you're saying. But can we move closer to the heaters?' 

Taija McLuckie  23:53 

Because it's like that fight or flight response kicks in. And I've just gained like, this whole other layer of understanding of the behaviours that come with like being unhoused. Oh, man, that was the hardest thing I think I've ever had to do and then have to say goodbye at like eight o'clock in the morning. I cried the whole way home and then phoned a friend and just, like, unloaded on her and just was like, 'How can anyone treat this population the way that they have?' And I just want to, like, drag every person at the top out of their, like, comfortable office chairs and bring them outside, like, just for one night.  Yeah, I would. Yes, I would do this for free because, like, someone's got to do it and yeah, this is, this is why.  

Taija McLuckie  25:01 

This is why peers don't get the recognition that they deserve. They don't get adequate funding support, or opportunity. And this is why I, how I see it, this is why it's getting worse. Because no one that gets to fund these projects, or, I don't know, coordinate them, they don't know. They have, they have no idea. Like, you can go around and kiss babies and shake hands and go in during the day and take pictures and have, like, meaningful conversations. But nothing could have prepared me for what that evening did and I'm just. A week ago, I wouldn't have been able to have that have this conversation around, like being paid fairly, and being compensated for my time. But that, that def, that changed after Friday. 

Caitlin Burritt  26:11 

Thank you for sharing that, that's a, definitely a powerful experience and really, I think, commendable that you are able to a) just continue to access that empathy, and then also to keep moving forward with it. It's amazing. 

Taija McLuckie  26:29 

Well, like that whole night was like a volunteer basis too.  

Caitlin Burritt  26:32 

Yeah, which is also amazing -- 

Taija McLuckie  26:35 

and even sorry, I was just gonna say, even, like, the people that helped me, you know, get all the harm reduction stuff out of my vehicle, like, wasn't anyone that was being paid, it was, like, our street family, being like, 'Hey, how can I help? What can I lift?' and, you know, like, putting my tent up and, and moving the things and helping me, like, pack bags, and, and with no other desire than like, just to help. The whole evening was on all of like a volunteer basis and the one organisation that kind of put it all together in the first place outside of the two nonprofits. They were all there, the people that worked, I am really try hard not to say because I, like, who it was,  I really don't want to, like, bash anyone.  

Taija McLuckie  27:32 

I'd like to think that they're, they were well intended. But I mean, I think they stayed until like 1:30, maybe two o'clock in the morning. Like, this isn't the bar. Yeah, it was. I was so disappointed. Like everyone left. Except for there was, like, me and two other people from the other nonprofits or like the other volunteer basis, anyways, packing up all the things and then our folks who were unhoused, helping us pull tents down and then some people showed up at around seven o'clock in the morning. Who, like, who had helped run this event they, like, showed up to help take things down, like, thanks. We could have done that part on our own. What did you gain from this experience that you didn't even stay for? It's just too bad. 

Caitlin Burritt  28:33 

And so does it sound like then, that volunteers are also a, sort of a core aspect of peer and harm reduction work as well? 

Taija McLuckie  28:45 

 Oh, yeah. Fortunately, these volunteer, this like one volunteer organisation, like, they're the Community Cares Peer Outreach. And the woman who runs it, she's, she's also a nurse. And although she does, like, her part in it on like, strictly a volunteer basis and like by donation. She was able, like, she has funding for honorarium. So she pays her peer workers. 

Caitlin Burritt  29:20 

That's good. And would you say, would that be an uncommon situation? Or does it? I guess, does it vary a lot depending on who's involved? 

Taija McLuckie  29:33 

I think it varies in if peers are paid or there's a lot of work that's done for free. And again, there are so many reasons why that would be and I just think it's like unique to each situation. I think one of the most frustrating things that I have seen recently is that like a local nonprofit organisation received like honorarium funding for their peer workers who go and do cleanups, like garbage pickups, and things like that in like designated areas around our city. And, like for myself, and for, I think all peers get paid $25 an hour. But this nonprofit organisation decided that $25 was too much and then, so they were paying their peers $20 an hour, which, in turn, had another peer outreach group go down to $20 an hour, just to like, not rock the boat or like, cause some sort of, 'why do they make more than me?'  

Taija McLuckie  30:55 

And, yeah, I don't know, I was being paid $20 an hour, four years ago. And I'm pretty sure most people have gotten some sort of wage increase because of how, like, the cost of living has gone up. But I don't know anyone, that's, where their wages gone down. And like, what do you say? 'Cause you want to be able to, when you're a peer, and especially for someone with like living experience, and you rely heavily on that cash? Are you going to argue, and then not have it at all? Or the risk of not having at all? Yeah, now they're making 20 bucks an hour and it's bullshit. 

Caitlin Burritt  31:35 

Do you think that for the groups that are dispensing the, the funding? Would there be expectation or understanding that because a lot of peers are very passionate about what they do that, you know, you can drop from 25 to 20 and there won't be the push back, necessarily? Or as you said, also, when people really depend on it as well, you mentioned rocking the boat earlier, do you or don't you? 

Taija McLuckie  32:04 

Yeah, for sure. I think it's taking advantage of a extremely vulnerable population, and capitalising on it knowing that, like, they'll just take what they get. I don't know, maybe they. I don't know what the mindset is, because that doesn't make sense to me and I'm not sure that any reason would justify taking five bucks every hour out of someone's pocket. I don't think anyone outside of being a peer worker would find that acceptable. But when it comes to people, like, with lived and living experience, there's just this different attitude towards them.  

Caitlin Burritt  32:45 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Caitlin Burritt  32:47 

Also, you mentioned earlier, I'm sure this is, this is part of the stigmatisation coming in and really taking shape in a very tangible way there. But you had just mentioned as well that you made $20 an hour a number of years ago, and now you're at a, at a higher rate. But I guess also the price of living has gone up a lot as well. But I was going to say what, how has that impacted you? Do you feel again, that it's a bit more fair? Has it made anything easier in your life? 

Taija McLuckie  33:19 

It did for a minute, like, there was this, this brief moment, for a few months where I was, like. I remember making this phone call to my sister, and being like, "Oh my God, like tomorrow is payday. And I still have $200 in my bank account, I can actually start putting money aside and still pay off my debt. Like, I have like fun money now." But then that all like went to shit once gas went up, and food and, and I've got two kids and I also have a dad, like their dad, who is. Him and I are really great friends and he is supportive in every way and pays his, you know, child support, or if I, like, he pays for like, almost everything of theirs. And if I ever needed anything I could be, I could just ask. And if he can do it, he will. Yeah. So for a minute that was, that was helpful. Now it. I'm just back to surviving.  

Caitlin Burritt  34:32 

Yeah, it's definitely yeah. Unfortunate how much everything has gone up in this last little bit and, but do you think that if you didn't have sort of the the community connections that you do with, you know, your kids' dad, and, would it be? Would it be a more stressful time financial situation, would it -- 

Taija McLuckie  35:02 

Oh, yeah --  

Caitlin Burritt  35:02 

still work? 

Taija McLuckie  35:04 

For sure. We... I, that's a scary thing to think about if anything ever happened to him or and what we would do. I, again, I think have a unique situation where that relationship is a healthy one. Because that's also not common. Yeah. So I think in my case, like, it's the anomaly, but now that I'm, like, thinking about, just, like, if I think that the $25 is enough, I, I'm curious to know, like, what we pay experts in like, what what do we pay consultants? What do we pay social workers? What do we pay, like these experts in these fields in order to teach us something? If that other person was an expert, that you needed their guidance on? We pay them a hell of a lot more. So yeah, no, it's not enough. 

Caitlin Burritt  36:13 

I think, yeah, you, you've articulated that well, of the, just the discrepancies between, between experts, because peers are experts in their field as well, so. Do you find that in, for yourself or maybe other peers that you know, do people, do they have to have then maybe alternate jobs on the side to even out the costs of living? And it's also it's also a demanding job of, of your time and energy, so do people just make it work? 

Taija McLuckie  36:51 

I don't know. I mean, if they do make it work on just that peer work, I'm open to any tips. Because I'm, I, you know, I do the harm reduction supports here and I also take outside projects, like as a peer with lived experience. And that's outside of like, my working hours, or on my lunch break. And, and then I, I have like a side business of, like, design. So like, I work, I have, I have to work that much in order to like pay off the debt incurred by my substance use and also survive, eat, feed my kids, buy them shoes. Because I swear to God, it's like all I do as a mother is like, buy shoes and food. Like, I just want one pair of shoes to last more than like two weeks. I'm just gonna start duct taping their feet. Yeah, I don't know how someone would just be able to survive on a single income. 

Caitlin Burritt  38:05 

It would be tough. And you know, just in the list of things that you are describing of, you know, how many, how many hours would you wind up, do you think working per week, between your peer work, your design, your other projects? 

Taija  38:25 

The only time not working is when I'm sleeping, or getting ready in the morning, or like working, getting my kids to school. So I start at 8:45 in the morning, and I go to bed on average of 11:30 at night. So, I have let's say, minus two hours for like bath time, bedtime, dinner. That kind of stuff. Yeah, I think I average, like, five hours. Six hours of sleep a night. Six if I'm lucky. That's what? 18 hours? 15? I work 15 hours a day. 

Caitlin Burritt  39:03 

Yeah, that is a lot. And yeah, again, do you think that is a pace that, that you can maintain? Or do you find it, it's necessary to to maintain? 

Taija McLuckie  39:17 

When it comes to the peer work? I am fortunate to be able to do something that I'm passionate about. Yeah, I. It's like, you know, training for a sport. And, like, I figure skated most of my life. And there were like days where I hated it. And times when I'd like fly into to the boards, or you know, you're sore and you're tired and you're cranky, and you're up at five and it's exhausting, but I still went back every day because you just have this, like, desire or drive to like, keep going. And so yeah, it is, it can be super stressful. But I am fortunate enough to have a stress that also brings me, like, so much joy.  

Caitlin Burritt  40:19 

And I think that is, it can be a hard thing to, to find. Something that you love to do and that you can make a career of and I feel like when you're really passionate about something, it's rare, probably for any, any passion to kind of balance evenly in the amount of hours put in, so it's not exclusive to peers. But yeah, is it? Is it something that you worry about feeling burnout at any point? Or are you just at this point, so kind of, galvanised that? 

Taija McLuckie  40:57 

I'm sure it will, I'm sure the, you know, the advocating, will become exhausting. Like, to a point where I need to, like, take a break from it. I don't know what that looks like, because I just, I haven't experienced it. But I mean, I think you only have like so much energy for your lifetime. So eventually, I'm, I just see myself moving into maybe just different roles, but still within the same field, and then letting some other 20-something just like full speed ahead. All the energy. And like, yeah, no filter. There'll be another, me. And I'm sure at that time, I will be happy to allow them to take that position. 

Ashley White  41:57 

Have you ever thought like how long? You see yourself doing this for or like, what,  how long you see yourself going this way? 

Taija  42:05 

Forever. Yeah, I just. Yeah, it's it's a really difficult feeling to try to put into words. And I, because I hear a lot like, I don't know how you do it. And like, doesn't that, like, when you see all of those things, like, is that not stressful? Does that not, like, affect you? And I? And if, of course, like some things do affect me. But like, I love it. I mean, I think the same reason why, like, paramedics become paramedics, firefighters. Like, I've always just been a person that runs in. So yeah, it's weird to me to not.  

Ashley White  42:46 

What are, like, other, because you mentioned, you just mentioned like. other roles and stuff, like, what are other like, what are other like, jobs or roles within this that you were thinking about when you mentioned that? I'm just curious.  

Taija McLuckie  42:57 

More like just more of like an education role, being able to maybe not so much be on, like, the front lines and like the picket lines, but -- 

Ashley White  43:08 

mhmm --

Taija McLuckie  43:10 

just more behind the scenes supporting other peers and in coordinating things and hopefully be able to offer the experience that I have and share what like went well, and what went wrong for me and, and yeah, just different things that I've worked on, I think that there's a lot of value in being able to teach. 

Caitlin Burritt  43:31 

Yeah, absolutely. And you've got such a wealth of information to draw on and give to other people coming up in the field as well. And just keeping an eye on our time, we've got about five minutes left. I mean, this is kind of a big question. Do you have any final thoughts to wrap up the conversation? 

Taija McLuckie  43:53 

I think for anyone, like, who's going to hear this, like I think just to, like, remind ourselves to be mindful. And to not... Like, working with peers and knowing and being appear in this work. We're not, we're not so different. And I hope just, like, some of the examples that I gave, like being able to, you know, consult experts, can shift perspective on things. If you think that you're, if you're looking at peers and peer workers as, like, their own like, entity, and their own little circle apart from whatever it is, the work that you're doing, or any other agency is doing, then notice that there's something wrong with that. Yeah. I don't know, my final statement, just treat us with some goddamn dignity and respect. Okay? 

Caitlin Burritt  45:03 

Yeah, I think that's probably a good final statement to, to end it on, to leave it there for the day. So thank you again for for taking time to talk to us -- 

Taija McLuckie  45:18 

thank you -- 

Caitlin Burritt  45:18 

and yeah, we just, we really appreciate it.  

Caitlin Burritt  45:21 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast, to listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com. And if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com Thank you for listening.